The Sacrifice of Jesus.....revisited

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quietthinker

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The sacrifice of Jesus:-

1...Was it to balance some sort of scales justice/injustice...cosmic or otherwise?
2...Was it because God had a taste for blood?
3...Is 'sacrifice' the right word ...and if so, why?
4...Did Jesus have anything to say about sacrifice....if so, what?

Who has the courage to think outside the square of this delicate subject and still be faithful to the intent of the scriptures?

a late Edit...
5...How is or what has The Kingdom of God to do or connected with sacrifice??
 
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Waiting on him

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The sacrifice of Jesus:-

1...Was it to balance some sort of scales justice/injustice...cosmic or otherwise?
2...Was it because God had a taste for blood?
3...Is 'sacrifice' the right word ...and if so, why?
4...Did Jesus have anything to say about sacrifice....if so, what?

Who has the courage to think outside the square of this delicate subject and still be faithful to the intent of the scriptures?
Through Him surrendering his earthly life He was able to give Spiritual life to those whom were spiritualy dead. None received this Spiritual life until Pentecost.
 

Lambano

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I was just reminiscing about an old friend who, when he first came to Christ from a Buddhist background, had a hard time understanding the Christian emphasis on Atonement.

3. Is "sacrifice" the right word?

In Romans 3:26, Paul uses the word "hilasteron", which could mean a propitiatory sacrifice, but in the Septuagint and the book of Hebrews referred to the "Mercy Seat", the cover on the Ark of the Covenant. John uses the word "hilasmos" in 1 John 2:2, also meaning a propitiatory sacrifice. Jesus Himself says...

4. Did Jesus have anything to say about sacrifice?

In Matthew, Jesus twice quotes Hosea 6:6, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." In Mark 10:45, Jesus prefers to refer to His death as a "ransom". Me, I'm touched by John 15:13: "Greater love has no man than this: That he lay down his life for his friends".

1. Was it to balance some sort of scales/justice?

I don't see how killing an innocent man instead of a guilty one (like me) can in any sense be considered "justice". And how can we say God forgives sin if He requires somebody (anybody will do) to pay for it? How can Jesus require us to forgive those who trespass against us when God Almighty Himself can't/won't forgive? Instead, I see Christ identifying with us in our sin and our death; we identify with Him in His crucifixion, His righteousness, and His resurrection.
 
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quietthinker

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I don't see how killing an innocent man instead of a guilty one (like me) can in any sense be considered "justice". And how can we say God forgives sin if He requires somebody (anybody will due) to pay for it? How can Jesus require us to forgive those who trespass against us when God Almighty Himself can't/won't forgive?
I think your post here Lambano is pertinent.....perhaps it could be fleshed out?
 

Lambano

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I think your post here Lambano is pertinent.....perhaps it could be fleshed out?
I'm not sure there's a whole lot more that can be said.

There is a saying, "Without blood, there is no remission of sins". It's typologically reflected in the OT "sin offering", though interestingly, in the Yom Kipper Day of Atonement ritual, the scapegoat carries Israel's sin into the Negev, rather than being sacrificed on the altar.

Those who defend Penal Substitutionary Atonement say that God can't just forgive our sins; justice demands somebody pay. If we're talking about a monetary debt and the creditor just cares about getting his money back (with interest), it doesn't matter who pays. But justice isn't like that. "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4) An innocent man cannot take a guilty man's place on the gallows. What society would ever consider that "Justice"?

Furthermore, take Jesus's parable of the Unforgiving Servant. The point of the parable is that God has forgiven us an enormous debt; we should do likewise with those who owe us relatively trivial amounts. But if God still demands payment of the sin-debt from His own Son, it's not forgiven at all. Why shouldn't we do the same? That makes God look like a hypocrite, demanding we humans forgive each other while He Himself demands payment. And that makes Jesus a liar, and then I want to know what else He lied to us about.

Those were some of the issues my ex-Buddhist friend had when he came to Christ. I really have a hard time disagreeing with him.

For "not having much more to say", I got four paragraphs out of that.
 

quietthinker

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I'm not sure there's a whole lot more that can be said.

There is a saying, "Without blood, there is no remission of sins". It's typologically reflected in the OT "sin offering", though interestingly, in the Yom Kipper Day of Atonement ritual, the scapegoat carries Israel's sin into the Negev, rather than being sacrificed on the altar.

Those who defend Penal Substitutionary Atonement say that God can't just forgive our sins; justice demands somebody pay. If we're talking about a monetary debt and the creditor just cares about getting his money back (with interest), it doesn't matter who pays. But justice isn't like that. "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4) An innocent man cannot take a guilty man's place on the gallows. What society would ever consider that "Justice"?

Furthermore, take Jesus's parable of the Unforgiving Servant. The point of the parable is that God has forgiven us an enormous debt; we should do likewise with those who owe us relatively trivial amounts. But if God still demands payment of the sin-debt from His own Son, it's not forgiven at all. Why shouldn't we do the same? That makes God look like a hypocrite, demanding we humans forgive each other while He Himself demands payment. And that makes Jesus a liar, and then I want to know what else He lied to us about.

Those were some of the issues my ex-Buddhist friend had when he came to Christ. I really have a hard time disagreeing with him.

For "not having much more to say", I got four paragraphs out of that.
Forgiveness is definitely not contingent upon payment of any sorts when we look at how Jesus handled the situation, lets say the paralytic let down through the roof; the woman caught in adultery and even his disciples post resurrection. He reinstates Peter, ......he bestows peace on them even though they all abandoned him.
What stands out is, he was not angry or vindictive even though from a natural human point of view he had every reason to be.
 

Lambano

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One of my profs in college used to coach the Debate Team. He'd say halfway through an argument, "Okay, now let's switch sides. You take my position and I'll take yours."
 
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quietthinker

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Agreed.

But what, then, was the purpose and meaning of Christ's death?

How can it be said that "the Son of God loved me and died for me" (Galatians 2:20)?
Jesus came to show us and the Universal created order the truth of God's reality. The charges levelled against God as being selfish by Lucifer were sufficiently persuasive to get one third of the angels on his side. Anything God ever wanted he made, how could he not be selfish? The charges hung there.

Jesus' incarnation, his humiliation in becoming a creature living amongst his own as one of us in hunger and thirst and weariness. Being a man of sorrows acquainted with grief was the result of Lucifer needling him directly or through his agents in continual attempts to trip him up.

It culminated in Calvary where those he came to witness to, murdered him.
God did not require death, God did not require blood...we did! It was not God who ended his life...we did.......and he submitted; he allowed it.....he gave his life, even to death that all who believe on him should not perish but join him in resurrection for eternal life. He forgives because he loves.

His purpose amongst man's salvation was to prove to the whole Universe beyond question Lucifer's lie, revealing the truth of God's reality.....that God is Love and in him is no darkness at all.
 
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Curtis

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The sacrifice of Jesus:-

1...Was it to balance some sort of scales justice/injustice...cosmic or otherwise?
2...Was it because God had a taste for blood?
3...Is 'sacrifice' the right word ...and if so, why?
4...Did Jesus have anything to say about sacrifice....if so, what?

Who has the courage to think outside the square of this delicate subject and still be faithful to the intent of the scriptures?

a late Edit...
5...How is or what has The Kingdom of God to do or connected with sacrifice??
It’s not a hard concept to understand.

We owe a debt we cannot pay, and He paid a debt He did not owe, and took upon Himself the sin of the whole world, in our place
 

quietthinker

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It’s not a hard concept to understand.

We owe a debt we cannot pay, and He paid a debt He did not owe, and took upon Himself the sin of the whole world, in our place
what did we owe?
 

BarneyFife

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The sacrifice of Jesus:-

1...Was it to balance some sort of scales justice/injustice...cosmic or otherwise?
2...Was it because God had a taste for blood?
3...Is 'sacrifice' the right word ...and if so, why?
4...Did Jesus have anything to say about sacrifice....if so, what?

Who has the courage to think outside the square of this delicate subject and still be faithful to the intent of the scriptures?

a late Edit...
5...How is or what has The Kingdom of God to do or connected with sacrifice??
6. Substitute and Surety:

EGW - Message of the Month

What was Accomplished by the Death of Christ

:D
 

BarneyFife

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Forgiveness is definitely not contingent upon payment of any sorts
Mercy isn't--forgiveness is.

The plan of salvation is simple for us. Look at the Cross.

The atonement process Christ undertook is complicated. Look at the Sanctuary services. :)
 

BarneyFife

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Once sin was conceived in the heart of Lucifer, a state of affairs came into being where not even the unfallen angels are safe from rebellion without Calvary for them to behold.
 

quietthinker

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Mercy isn't--forgiveness is.

The plan of salvation is simple for us. Look at the Cross.

The atonement process Christ undertook is complicated. Look at the Sanctuary services. :)
The sanctuary is interesting, that is certain yet when all is said and done it was shadows of the reality.
Jesus is God's reality....it is Jesus who informs us isn't it?
Jesus had no problem forgiving the paralytic let down through the roof with a word.....don't you find that amazing? What is even more amazing is he didn't ask for forgiveness. There are several examples like this one.
It was religious men who insisted on going to the temple and going through the slaughtered lamb process.
I wonder what we can learn from that?
 

BarneyFife

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The sanctuary is interesting, that is certain yet when all is said and done it was shadows of the reality.
The Gospel writers could only see what was visible to the natural eye at Calvary. They couldn't see the supernatural activity like Elisha's servant could. The reality is beyond our comprehension.
Jesus is God's reality....it is Jesus who informs us isn't it?
By progressive revelation (John 16:12). He's the Logos.
Jesus had no problem forgiving the paralytic let down through the roof with a word.....don't you find that amazing?
He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He had already guaranteed Surety--Himself.
What is even more amazing is he didn't ask for forgiveness.
Don't you find it amazing that folks don't drop dead after their first selfish thought?

It was religious men who insisted on going to the temple and going through the slaughtered lamb process.
I wonder what we can learn from that?
Only that the atonement process is very complicated. The slaughtered lamb process and all the rest was a schoolmaster. Mostly for us Christians. Men are running to and fro and knowledge is being increased (Daniel 12:4). :)

I know it's a long one, but it's worth a look if you ever get time:
(Actual message starts about 6:15 in.)

A shorter version:

 

Aunty Jane

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The sacrifice of Jesus:-

This is a good topic....

1...Was it to balance some sort of scales justice/injustice...cosmic or otherwise?
Yes.....it was to fulfill God's Law...."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life".
According to God's law penalties were designed to fit the crime. Capital crimes merited the death penalty, which fulfilled "a life for a life".

In Israel, if a man got himself into debt, he could be sentenced to work to pay off the debt to the one who was owed the money. If the man had a family to support, he could send one of his children into service to pay the debt. If the man died owing money, the debt was inherited by his children. This is what happened to Adam's children. He died without being able to pay the debt of sin and death that he left to them. (Romans 5:12)
If a wealthy relative or friend was benevolent, he could pay the debt and release the man or his children. That was called redemption. In much the same way as we can redeem something that we have pawned if we pay back what was borrowed against it.

For Adam's children, Jesus offered to pay the debt.....only it wasn't money. God's law demanded equivalency which is why sacrifices were calleed "atonement" (at-one-ment)...one for one. What Adam lost was perfect sinless life for himself, and when he died, his children were left with a debt that none of them could pay. Only another perfect sinless life could be offered to redeem his children. Jesus volunteered to be the one to offer his perfect life for theirs. This is why he had to come from outside of the now sinful human race.

John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!”
Jesus himself said that he came “to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”
John tells us that “the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”
Peter states that Christians were ransomed “with precious blood,” “even Christ’s.”
And Paul’s letters are replete with references to Christ’s sacrificial merit, such as, “God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

2...Was it because God had a taste for blood?
The blood sacrifices undertaken in Israel all pointed forward to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. These provided temporary forgiveness, whereas Christ's sacrifice was once and for all time.....never needing to be repeated.
Blood is sacred to God and hence why his people were forbidden to consume it in any form, under penalty of death.

3...Is 'sacrifice' the right word ...and if so, why?
"Sacrifice" is an appropriate term because if someone loses their life rescuing someone else they are said to have sacrificed their life to save another from death. This is what Jesus did. It was like we were sentenced to stand before a firing squad and Jesus stepped on front of us to take the bullets. He died in our place.

4...Did Jesus have anything to say about sacrifice....if so, what?
As a devout Jew, Jesus was no stranger to sacrifice. He accompanied his parents throughout his youth to Jerusalem for the yearly festivals and sacrifice was part of Israel's worship.

Who has the courage to think outside the square of this delicate subject and still be faithful to the intent of the scriptures?
Why does one need to think outside of any square? The scriptures very clearly state that Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world......but his sacrifice only applies to those who obey him in everything. Life was conditional from the very beginning.....only if the first humans obeyed their God, would they live. Failure to obey would end in death.....nothing has changed. God gives us every opportunity to repent and to be forgiven, but his patience has its limits. He will call all to an accounting.

a late Edit...
5...How is or what has The Kingdom of God to do or connected with sacrifice??
The Kingdom of God is the governmental arrangement that God will set up over redeemed mankind once Jesus and his angelic forces have cleansed the earth of wickedness and all who practice it. Christ's sacrifice is their redemption, making everlasting life on earth again a reality.
The "sheep" will inherit unending life, whereas the "goats" will suffer the penalty of eternal death.

God's Kingdom of 1000 years with Jesus as king, and with his heavenly priesthood, will rule this earth in righteousness, and bring all redeemed mankind back to the sinless perfection that Adam and his wife had originally enjoyed. This will include all those whom Jesus will call out of their graves at the resurrection. (John 5:28-29)

After one final test, all will return to God's original purpose for this earth and mankind upon it. (Isaiah 55:11)

That is how I see the God's plan for mankind on this earth. He was never going to take any humans to heaven originally, because He already had a large family of spirit sons serving him there. Christ's ransom, and the Kingdom were only put in place to bring us back to square one. This life was an object lesson on what happens when we try to live independently of our Creator. We have proven that we cannot manage ourselves or the planet, without him.