James Was Not Talking about Faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation

[stunnedbygrace]

Justify means to 'render righteous'.

Justify, when speaking of God and a man, means the man did what was right in Gods eyes.
We can go a long way back and see that God says a man does what is right when he trusts God.

BUT, men don’t continue flawlessly in that same initial trust and so the struggle begins to learn the obedience of unwavering trust and to stop falling in our race.

What do You mean, don’t defend myself??
What do you mean, don’t worry about how I will pay the bills??

 

[Christ4Me]

Why not both -- a brother in Christ and a Jewish brother? I believe the first is more fitting to the context, particularly after Christ spoke to Ananias.

@Titus

More like a former Jew of the 12 tribes of Israel whom is now a brother in Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, clearly James spoke of a KIND of faith that is void of works (faith alone) that does not save as the devils have. Contrasting this faith void of works to faith that includes works that does save.

You don't get it at all.

Maybe someone else can explain it to you.

Your just wrong..

and this is a salvation issue, that makes it dangerous

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It seems an impossibility for them to come to that logical conclusion.

I have not had one person who believes you do not obey any commandments to be saved, answer, 1John 3:23-24.
I'm waiting for Danthemailman, Eternally Greatful and marks to give an answer to,
1John 3:23-24.

If we have to obey a command to be saved, we are under law. Not under grace.

We are under grace, because we have failed to live up to Gods standard (perfection)

We can obey all the commands we want. we will still fall short of meriting salvation by our works.

You claim you do not teach salvation by works. You screamed at @mailmandan and myself for accusing you of teaching this, yet here you are once again teaching salvation by works.

And your waiting on us??

 

[Titus]

If we have to obey a command to be saved, we are under law. Not under grace.

We are under grace, because we have failed to live up to Gods standard (perfection)

We can obey all the commands we want. we will still fall short of meriting salvation by our works.

You claim you do not teach salvation by works. You screamed at @mailmandan and myself for accusing you of teaching this, yet here you are once again teaching salvation by works.

And your waiting on us??

I never once denied that works play a part in salvation!

What I do deny is your consistent strawman argument that I teach meritorious works salvation.
That is a false accusation, a ploy you use to change and misdirect the message I am presenting.

Shame on you Eternaly Greatful for willfully, knowingly , intentionally misrepresenting me.

Ignorant statement and belief by Eternally Greatful:

If we have to obey a command to be saved, we are under law. Not under grace.

Are you serious? Do you really believe we are not under law today?

Do you not know what the consequences of your theology brings?

The Bible teaches us that for sin to be charged against us there must be law,
Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Eternally Greatful teaches we are not under law but Grace.

If he is correct, what is the consequence of this ?

As Paul taught,
No law can only mean no sin!

Therefore if there is no law today only grace.
No one needs Jesus to save them because we are all without sin!

Obviously this is error in understanding Grace and law.

Paul teaches we all are under law today, everyone, saint, sinner alike in Romans 8:2,
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus(new testament, new covenant ie Christ's law)
Has made us free from the law of sin and death(The old covenant ie Law of Moses).

Paul teaches the old law brings only sin and death.
Paul contrasts the old with the new law of Christ, that brings life and liberty!

Jesus' new will and testament ie Christ's law:

James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another's burdens and do fulfill the law of Christ.

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of law.

Gods grace is included in this new law of Christ.
This is why Paul says Christs law FREES us from the law of sin and death.
This is why James says Christs law is a perfect law that liberates us from death!

Now here is the question you and Danthemailman refuse to give an answer to,

If we are saved without any obedience to Gods commandments.
Then explain if you can be saved by not obeying this commandment,

1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment:that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Can you be saved without working the works of God,
John 6:28-29?

Give an answer to not obeying the commandment to believe in 1John 3:23-24 if you are correct that we do not obey commandments to be saved.

James 2:24, James teaches we work obedience not merit.
Why can you not work a work of obedience to obey Gods commandment of belief in Jesus 1John 3:23-24.
And it not be merit, as you know good and well it is not!
Yet you falsely accuse me of teaching meritorious works salvation by teaching what James is teaching, James 2:24?

 

[marks]

Justify, when speaking of God and a man, means the man did what was right in Gods eyes.

Romans 4:3-8 KJV
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

God justifies the ungodly.

Justify means to "render righteous", to make righteous.

Purify means to make pure. Sanctify means to make holy. Justify means to make righteous.

We are rendered judicially righteous by God's imputation of righteousness, even though of ourselves we be ungodly. But God justifies the ungodly, counting faith for righteousness. That is, the righteousness isn't otherwise there, but God imputes it so.

We are rendered ontologically righteous by recreation, being born of God.

But men don't believe we've truly been crucified with Christ, and continue in their old ways. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Much love!

 

[Titus]

Romans 4:3-8 KJV
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

God justifies the ungodly.

Justify means to "render righteous", to make righteous.

Purify means to make pure. Sanctify means to make holy. Justify means to make righteous.

We are rendered judicially righteous by God's imputation of righteousness, even though of ourselves we be ungodly. But God justifies the ungodly, counting faith for righteousness. That is, the righteousness isn't otherwise there, but God imputes it so.

We are rendered ontologically righteous by recreation, being born of God.

But men don't believe we've truly been crucified with Christ, and continue in their old ways. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Much love!

I'm waiting for you to give an answer for your doctrine of no obedience to Gods commandments to be saved, 1John 3:23-24.

 

[marks]

I'm waiting for you to give an answer for your doctrine of no obedience to Gods commandments to be saved, 1John 3:23-24.

That's right, I don't believe we buy salvation by doing works.

Ephesians 2:4-10 KJV
4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Clearly taught.

Romans 4:22-5:2 KJV
22) And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25) Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

For the just shall live by faith.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Are you serious? Do you really believe we are not under law today?

Don't just skip past this, learn this passage.

Romans 7:1-6 KJV
1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Much love!

 

[Titus]

Don't just skip past this, learn this passage.

Romans 7:1-6 KJV
1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Much love!

You still refuse to answer 1John 3:23-24.
Dodging my question still.
Typing out a bunch of verses to create a "smoke screen"
You are not foolin me.

You know 1John 3:23-24
Proves your doctrine of no obedience to Gods commandments in order to be saved FALSE!

Deny, it all you want. You are making excuses for what you know contradicts your doctrine.

I would rather believe the word of God, James 2:24 ; 1John 3:23-24,
Rather than hold to a churches doctrine that cannot hold up under scrutiny.

 

[marks]

You still refuse to answer 1John 3:23-24.
Dodging my question still.
Typing out a bunch of verses to create a "smoke screen"
You are not foolin me.

You know 1John 3:23-24
Proves your doctrine of no obedience to Gods commandments in order to be saved FALSE!

Deny, it all you want. You are making excuses for what you know contradicts your doctrine.

I would rather believe the word of God, James 2:24 ; 1John 3:23-24,
Rather than hold to a churches doctrine that cannot hold up under scrutiny.

You've really built some kind of concept of me that has little to do with me. So have fun with that.

Much love!

 

[Titus]

You've really build some kind of concept of me that has little to do with me. So have fun with that.

Much love!

You did not give an answer to 1John 3:23-24.
Since you wont give an answer for your no works of obedience salvation gospel.
You will eventually give an answer.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I never once denied that works play a part in salvation!

What I do deny is your consistent strawman argument that I teach meritorious works salvation.
That is a false accusation, a ploy you use to change and misdirect the message I am presenting.

Shame on you Eternaly Greatful for willfully, knowingly , intentionally misrepresenting me.

Your statement, "works salvationists just don't get it".
Is also a misrepresentation of my beliefs.
I do not believe I save myself apart from Gods grace.

It is not mans works that save, Ephesians 2:8-9 teaches this as a Biblical fact.
It is the works of God that do save us,

Acts 10:35
There you go. In your own words.

Ignorant statement and belief by Eternally Greatful:
Are you serious? Do you really believe we are not under law today?

My bible says I am under grace. Not under the law.


Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Do you not know what the consequences of your theology brings?

The Bible teaches us that for sin to be charged against us there must be law,
Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Your correct.

So if you are under law. YOUR DOOMED!

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

all it takes is one sin. And your doomed forever. Thats WHY Christ came. to remove the curse of the law from you. If you think you kept the law and are righteous because of obedience to commands. You are just as guilty and ignorant as the jews. Who crucified Christ. because they thought the same as you do

Eternally Greatful teaches we are not under law but Grace.

If he is correct, what is the consequence of this ?

The bible teaches this!!

EG just teaches and has faith in scripture. Not in EG

As Paul taught,
No law can only mean no sin!

No, Paul taught no law means one can not be charged of sin.

lol.. wow man..

Therefore if there is no law today only grace.

No, the law is there. and if you are not under grace, the law will put you where you belong. Because you failed to heed the schoolmaster..

Gal 3 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

If you think you are still under the law. You have not been led by the schoolmaster.

this post is long. In fact, there is no need to go further. Lets get this settled first..

You are either under law (condemned)

or under grace (condemnation removed)

there is no third option.

 

[Titus]

Acts 10:35
There you go. In your own words.



My bible says I am under grace. Not under the law.


Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”



Your correct.

So if you are under law. YOUR DOOMED!

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

all it takes is one sin. And your doomed forever. Thats WHY Christ came. to remove the curse of the law from you. If you think you kept the law and are righteous because of obedience to commands. You are just as guilty and ignorant as the jews. Who crucified Christ. because they thought the same as you do


The bible teaches this!!

EG just teaches and has faith in scripture. Not in EG


No, Paul taught no law means one can not be charged of sin.

lol.. wow man..



No, the law is there. and if you are not under grace, the law will put you where you belong. Because you failed to heed the schoolmaster..

Gal 3 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

If you think you are still under the law. You have not been led by the schoolmaster.

this post is long. In fact, there is no need to go further. Lets get this settled first..

You are either under law (condemned)

or under grace (condemnation removed)

there is no third option.

All verses in Romans teaching not under law is the law of Moses.
Not the new covenant Christ.

You do not know what law is being taught in the verses you quote.
This is why you think we are not under any law today.

If you are correct.

Then no one needs Jesus Christ because we are all without sin,
Romans 4:13
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Eternally Grateful, Your belief puts everyone in heaven.
For no one is in their sins.

Is Acts 10:35 your answer to my question of 1John 3:23-24?

If so you answered correctly!

Good for you friend!

You have admitted we must obey Gods commandments to be accepted by Him.

Works of righteousness are not meritorious.
This proves works like obedience to Gods commandments, 1John 3:23-24 earn us nothing!

Righteousness is being right.
By whom decides what is right?
God.
So when we work righteousness. We are right in our works in Gods eyes.
Working the works of God are never boastful, Ephesians 2:8-9.

Works of righteousness are never meritorious, Ephesians 2:8-9.

Since we both can agree that works can be done to be saved like the work of faith, 11John 3:23-24.

You now know that obedience to God can precede salvation and not be meritting salvation.

Fact it must precede salvation to be saved.

For we must obey the commandment to,
Believe, 1John 3:23-24

Repent of sins, Acts 3:19

Confess our faith that Jesus is God, Romans 10:9-10

Be immersed in water for the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16.

Obeying these commandments are works of righteousness, Acts 10:35.
Not works of mans merit, Ephesians 2:8-9.

You're on your way to learning the Biblical gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

Saul was not saved.

Saul was saved on the road to Damascus. He called Jesus "Lord" at that time.

 

[Titus]

Saul was saved on the road to Damascus. He called Jesus "Lord" at that time.

Proverbs 3:11-12
My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor detest His correction; For whom the Lord loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights.
Joel 2:27
Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel:
I am the Lord your God and there is no other.

God the Father can be referred to as Lord.

Jesus spoke directly to Paul on the road to Damascus.

But Sir, Paul was not for sure Jesus was his Lord. Until, Paul asked Jesus, if he was Lord.

Acts 9:4-5
Then he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?
And Paul said, "Who are you, Lord?"
Then the Lord said, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.

Verse 6 says Lord what do you want me to do.

Well, of course he knows he is Lord.
He was just taught who is speaking to Him.

Can there be only one conclusion that Paul is saved because he knows Jesus is the Lord?

No, it could be he simply now knows.

Just as all the Jews knew on pentecost that they had crucified the Lord in verse 37.
Yet they were not saved until they obeyed the gospel in verse 38.

Acts 2:36-38
Therefore let the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The moment they knew Jesus was in fact the Messiah, Lord and Savior.
They had not had there sins forgiven until they repented and were baptized for the forgiveness of there sins.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All verses in Romans teaching not under law is the law of Moses.
Not the new covenant Christ.

lololol

I am sorry my friend. You have me rolling, which is sad, because I fear so much for you.

The law is the law of Moses. The law of Christ is grace my friend.

You do not know what law is being taught in the verses you quote.
This is why you think we are not under any law today.

Yet you have no response to how I am wrong, you just say it, That should convince me?

If you are correct.

Then no one needs Jesus Christ because we are all without sin,

Nope. Those verses claim we need christ, because the law proves we are in sin, It proves we have failed to keep the law. It proves we are cursed by the law. which is exactly what I said.

Romans 4:13
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Why do you not post the whole verse...

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

It supports everything I have been saying

Apart from the law there would BE NO WRATH!

As paul said in rom 7, the law came and I DIED> because the law said do no covet.. etc etc.

Eternally Grateful, Your belief puts everyone in heaven.
For no one is in their sins.

Dude, You are misrepresenting what I am saying, because your blind to what the word says. If you can not understand what the law is and what it does. Don;t try to blame me and falsly accuse me

Again, I am not going any further in your post. because everything you have said so far is

1. Misrepresenting what I have said and believe
2. Misrepresents the law and its purpose.
3. Misrepresents the word of God.

 

[Titus]

lololol

I am sorry my friend. You have me rolling, which is sad, because I fear so much for you.

The law is the law of Moses. The law of Christ is grace my friend.





Yet you have no response to how I am wrong, you just say it, That should convince me?



Nope. Those verses claim we need christ, because the law proves we are in sin, It proves we have failed to keep the law. It proves we are cursed by the law. which is exactly what I said.


Why do you not post the whole verse...

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

It supports everything I have been saying

Apart from the law there would BE NO WRATH!

As paul said in rom 7, the law came and I DIED> because the law said do no covet.. etc etc.



Dude, You are misrepresenting what I am saying, because your blind to what the word says. If you can not understand what the law is and what it does. Don;t try to blame me and falsly accuse me

Again, I am not going any further in your post. because everything you have said so far is

1. Misrepresenting what I have said and believe
2. Misrepresents the law and its purpose.
3. Misrepresents the word of God.

You just contradicted yourself.
First you told me we are not under any law today.
Now you tell me we are under the law of Grace.

That is double talk, friend.

Either we are not under law as you first said.
Or
We are under law. As you are now saying
Make up your mind.

 

[Enoch111]

Verse 6 says Lord what do you want me to do.

No. It is not "Of course he knows". He was persecuting Christians because he believed that Jesus was a false Messiah. Christ was definitely not Lord to him until he met Christ face to face. But no man can call Jesus "Lord" except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3). So when he said "Lord" he believed that Jesus was God and Messiah because the light from Heaven could only be God's light.

So let's not promote any false ideas here. Paul was saved on the road to Damascus and Ananias recognized him as a brother in Christ: But the Lord said unto him [Ananias], Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: (Acts 9:15)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You just contradicted yourself.
First you told me we are not under any law today.
Now you tell me we are under the law of Grace.

That is double talk, friend.

Either we are not under law as you first said.
Or
We are under law. As you are now saying
Make up your mind.

Lol

Let’s face it

You are either here to play games, Here to try to bully people, or maybe your a young person who really does nt know better?

I am not sure, But one things is sure. You do not know how to read what people are saying.

When I say we are not under law. It means the law of moses. You know that. Everyone here knows that. But you want to play games so you twist what we say so it makes you look like your smart or something?

I don’t know what it is. But you are getting tiresome.