When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[MatthewG]

It is a mystery, as Paul said. However some things are known. Such as that when He appears in glory, (the return to earth when He is seen by all) we will be with Him!
Colossians 3:4
When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Hello Dad,

Would not this text infer to their new heavenly bodies they would receive after dying and have had received their resurrected spiritual bodies ?

(I see spiritual bodies given at various degrees by God)(To the unbeliever some type of spiritual body that may not be able to get very near to light unless they let the light in, To the believer rewards based on your faith and love towards God and man, the ultimate prize that Paul was trying to obtain was an outer resurrection (Spiritual body given by God) better than the normal.)

In love, kindness, peace, joy, of Christ,
I may be wrong but desired to know your thoughts on that matter of subject.
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Timtofly]

I said I think we are in the 5th trump, not the 6th seal. The seals are only information about future events and they are not in chronological order. The first seal opened is the antichrist but he comes during the 6th trumpet. Each seal is connected to one of the 7 trumpets.

You think John wrote Revelation so a single person could come along and claim the correct order?

It is funny that every person claims to know the correct order. Obviously no one will believe the order they themselves are not willing to accept from another person.

All of Revelation is in the proper chronological order, because John was a witness to the whole event. He wouldn't deceive nor give an order that any one would disagree with if someone now claims they have a direct Revelation of the correct order.

Obviously any one claiming new Revelation will not be received, not even Elijah or Moses. We do not even know what they look like, and Obviously unless they call down fire from heaven, no one is going to accept some random poster, no matter how sincere they are.

Why would any person claiming none of Revelation is in chronological order be trusted. That is like one of two things. No one was to know the proper order. Or Revelation is just a random book added to the Bible and not even the Word of God.

Every person claiming Revelation is not in chronological order never agrees with another stating the same thing. Obviously people are going to agree with one order or another, because there are not that many combinations of sensible order. But how do you all solve all the contradictions with each other if no one is going to budge on direct Revelation from God?

 

[ewq1938]

All of Revelation is in the proper chronological order, because John was a witness to the whole event.

Some of Revelation is in chronological order but many parts of it are not. Revelation 14 is a great example. The first half is after the second coming with Christ and the 144k together while the second part of the chapter is showing the first harvest which is the rapture. So one is after the rapture and the other shows the rapture happening. That's non-chronological. Part of Revelation 7 is set in the timeframe of the eternity where the real timeframe of the eternity is Revelation 21. John merely saw events from the eternity in part of chapter 7.

 

[Timtofly]

I see. So who is this 'fringe minority' that came out of the great tribulation?

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This verse does not say they came out of THE Great Tribulation.

Just because you have an easy life without tribulation, does not mean the billions reaching Paradise before you had an easy life.

You do not even know how long this upcoming "THE Great Tribulation" will even last.

Even if you claim the 42 months in Revelation 13 is this "THE Great Tribulation", you would be wrong. Jesus said this time would be shortened. So if that is your time frame it could be as short as days or weeks instead of 42 months. If you think that all that uncountable multitude had their heads chopped off, what about the billions who have died in the last 6,000 years? Where are they?

 

[Timtofly]

Or maybe it's symbolic so I don't have to show a literal grass burning event.

Show what happened symbolically then. What is your massive symbolic event?

 

[dad]

Hello Dad,

Would not this text infer to their new heavenly bodies they would receive after dying and have had received their resurrected spiritual bodies ?

We are coming with Him when He appears! It does not yet appear what we shall be. But by the time He returns TO the earth we are with Him and we appear too! Those who are raised incorruptible at the Rapture have resurrected spiritual bodies just like Jesus. We shall be like Him. We would have to have spiritual bodies to return with Him.

(I see spiritual bodies given at various degrees by God)(To the unbeliever some type of spiritual body that may not be able to get very near to light unless they let the light in, To the believer rewards based on your faith and love towards God and man, the ultimate prize that Paul was trying to obtain was an outer resurrection (Spiritual body given by God) better than the normal.)

When He comes for us we all attain it! Not by works which we have done, but according to His mercy hath he saved us. He attained it for us. What we strive to attain is some good works. Those who believe in Jesus are counted worthy to receive everlasting life.

 

[dad]

This verse does not say they came out of THE Great Tribulation.

Look closely..
Revelation 7:14
I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Just because you have an easy life without tribulation, does not mean the billions reaching Paradise before you had an easy life.

You do not even know how long this upcoming "THE Great Tribulation" will even last.

No? Why would you say that? We have it six ways from Sunday in the bible.

Even if you claim the 42 months in Revelation 13 is this "THE Great Tribulation", you would be wrong. Jesus said this time would be shortened.

In other words if it was any longer all would die. Therefore those days are numbered. Shortened. We know what they are shortened to.

So if that is your time frame it could be as short as days or weeks instead of 42 months.

No. Seven years. The last half of which are the Great Tribulation and which last precisely a certain number of months, and weeks and days.

If you think that all that uncountable multitude had their heads chopped off, what about the billions who have died in the last 6,000 years? Where are they?

The main focus of the verses are the people who were killed in that last period.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

That is not vague in any way.

 

[Timtofly]

What in your opinion should the pre-trib catching up be called?

The Second Coming.

The rapture and Second Coming are the same event. Paul says so. John says so. Even Zechariah says so.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Dad,

Okay thank you for your response.

In peace, patience, kindness, joy, of Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Taken]

Yes and that is the second coming.

More in-depth.

The coming in the clouds to gather up His Bride is not when He returns to earth. He takes us away from the earth.

Basically yes.

 

[Taken]

The Second Coming.

The rapture and Second Coming are the same event. Paul says so. John says so. Even Zechariah says so.

The Rapture applies to human men.
The Second Coming applies to the Son of Man.

The Rapture IS going UP.
The Second Coming IS coming DOWN.

Ignoring the difference between a Human and the Lord God;
Ignoring the difference between UP and DOWN;
Is not forthright.
Of course acts of each.....Human and the Lord God affect one an other....and lead to particular events...YET the “events” themselves are specific.

To try and Carnally simplify a complex Spiritual Event avoids the whole truth.

Mortal men ON EARTH, are DIVIDED.
- Some KNOW...the Son of Man IS the Christ...YET can NOT SEE HIM.
- Some DO NOT KNOW...the Son of Man IS the Christ...and can NOT SEE HIM.

* TWO distinct groups of humans SHALL Occupy the Earth at the Same Time.
A RAISE UP man Converted IN Christ....SHALL “SEE” Christ as He IS....Spirit.
While at the SAME TIME...
Mortals ON Earth, SHALL continue to ONLY “SEE”...the Son of Man...Flesh.

WHEN the Converted SHALL SEE Christ as He is, IS an Event Separate FROM WHEN the Mortals on Earth SHALL SEE the EVENT OF the Son of Man Returning to EARTH.

 

[Timtofly]

It is a mystery, as Paul said. However some things are known. Such as that when He appears in glory, (the return to earth when He is seen by all) we will be with Him!
Colossians 3:4
When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Exactly. The rapture and Second Coming are one and the same.

 

[Timtofly]

? You think the last 1000 years was evil free?

The last 1,000 year reign of Christ has not started yet.

I did not say the last 1,000 years (1030 - 2030). I said the last 1,000 years of current creation, before the NHNE. (2030 - 3030)

 

[Timtofly]

When did satan fall ,ie, then known as lucifer ?
If you think it happened after man was created flesh , that's a problem

After the Day of The Lord. 1,000 years is a Lord's Day. 2 Peter 3:8.

 

[Timtofly]

What support do you have for this?

Matthew 25 is the start of the Millennium at the Second Coming. It is not 1,000 years after the Second Coming already happened.

Those sheep and goats are not dead souls from sheol. They are living humans out of the Nations. They are brought to Jerusalem to be judged. Christ is their Prince cleaning up the mess here on earth at the Second Coming.

The church was already raptured, now Christ is harvesting the billions of living humanity still on earth.

Only Amil believe Matthew 25 is the GWT, because they claim Christ is already separating sheep from goats in the last 1,000 indefinite years. Or at a single instant, after just sitting there.

Matthew 25 is still the Olivet Discourse about the end. What do you think the end is about?

Matthew 13 says Christ brings the angels with Him at the end for the final harvest. How many Second Comings and final harvests are there?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It appears you aren't getting what the scripture clearly states

Jesus stated "Destroy This Temple" and he wasn't speaking of a literal destruction of a temple in Jerusalem.

Of course, in John 2 Jesus wasn't talking about a literal temple. But, in Matthew 24 he WAS talking about a literal temple.

 

[Timtofly]

Some of Revelation is in chronological order but many parts of it are not. Revelation 14 is a great example. The first half is after the second coming with Christ and the 144k together while the second part of the chapter is showing the first harvest which is the rapture. So one is after the rapture and the other shows the rapture happening. That's non-chronological. Part of Revelation 7 is set in the timeframe of the eternity where the real timeframe of the eternity is Revelation 21. John merely saw events from the eternity in part of chapter 7.

Revelation 14 is the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is a week of days per Daniel 9:27.

Either the week ends as a whole and Revelation 14 is the winepress. Or the alternative is the week is split in half. The last 3.5 days are at the end of the 42 month period that splits the week in half. They are the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem.

So Revelation 14 is still Christ celebrating with the 144k, and all humanity goes into the winepress by the the time the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

If the 42 months happen, then Christ and the 144k return at Armageddon at the end of the 7 vials, which are also poured out during those last 3.5 days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.

So no, still the same chronological order.

Revelation 7 happens immediately at the 6th Seal being opened. That is the glorified church around the throne of God in Paradise. They are waiting until the Trumpets and Thunders are over and Christ as Prince with the angels and 144k wrap up the GT. They will also be waiting with the Lord for one day, while Christ the Prince reigns on earth for 1000 years. Then Paradise will descend from heaven as the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. Still all in chronological order.

When people start saying this is this and therefore cannot be in Chronological order, they leave behind the simple reason why Revelation is in chronological order.

The 6th Seal lines up with Jesus' own sign of the Second Coming. There will be no other time a Second Coming happens.

The church will not see the AoD. The best case scenario, Revelation 14, is that the AoD never happens, period.

Jesus was warning Israel, or those living in Jerusalem about any AoD, not the church. Today many are so wrapped up, waiting for the worse case scenario, instead of being a church and praying the best harvest of lost souls ever.

Paul wrote the bulk of the NT. It was about evangelism and preparing for the return. Not sitting around waiting for the devil to defeat the world.

 

[Timtofly]

I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This is your own quote:

I know some translations add the "the".

I see. So who is this 'fringe minority' that came out of the great tribulation?

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So you went and found a translation that supports your belief system. You should have started with that.

The Greek text says: coming out of the tribulation the great.

You still have to prove that the last 2000 years had no tribulation period and only at the end there would be one single point of intense tribulation.

Otherwise you separate the church in Paradise between billions never having tribulation at all, and a minor group at the very end having intense tribulation.

So prove there has never been tribulation at all until after the rapture of the church.

 

[Timtofly]

No. Seven years. The last half of which are the Great Tribulation and which last precisely a certain number of months, and weeks and days.
The main focus of the verses are the people who were killed in that last period.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

That is not vague in any way

You have only interpretation itself to claim 7 years. No where is 7 years mentioned.

It is not shortened to 42 months. If so give the original length it was shortened from.

If the Bible gives a length, it is then shortened. Why imagine a longer length, when the point was to shorten the time, not state the exact length.

How does the Second Coming shorten 42 months, if it was an exact 42 months given to Satan? Was Satan going to be given more time?

Satan's 42 months is not even when the Trumpets and Thunders sound. Even you seem to indicate that is a 3.5 years that come first. So which time is shortened? Both? The first 3.5 years? The 42 months? Was it originally 100's of years, 50 years? 10 years?

What if the 42 months do not happen at all? Would you feel cheated or disheartened that no one was beheaded?

When Jesus said it was shortened or no one would be saved, why, if all of Adam's flesh and blood had to die physically? Would that not mean redeemed? If there was no tribulation because, best case scenario the whole world repented like Nineveh just before the Second Coming, would you be happy all flesh was saved, or go find Jonah, and sing a duet?

The point about this time being shortened is that redemption happens and judgment is spared. Not that a few people live physical lives.

 

[Timtofly]

The Rapture applies to human men.
The Second Coming applies to the Son of Man.

The Rapture IS going UP.
The Second Coming IS coming DOWN.

Ignoring the difference between a Human and the Lord God;
Ignoring the difference between UP and DOWN;
Is not forthright.
Of course acts of each.....Human and the Lord God affect one an other....and lead to particular events...YET the “events” themselves are specific.

To try and Carnally simplify a complex Spiritual Event avoids the whole truth.

Mortal men ON EARTH, are DIVIDED.
- Some KNOW...the Son of Man IS the Christ...YET can NOT SEE HIM.
- Some DO NOT KNOW...the Son of Man IS the Christ...and can NOT SEE HIM.

* TWO distinct groups of humans SHALL Occupy the Earth at the Same Time.
A RAISE UP man Converted IN Christ....SHALL “SEE” Christ as He IS....Spirit.
While at the SAME TIME...
Mortals ON Earth, SHALL continue to ONLY “SEE”...the Son of Man...Flesh.

WHEN the Converted SHALL SEE Christ as He is, IS an Event Separate FROM WHEN the Mortals on Earth SHALL SEE the EVENT OF the Son of Man Returning to EARTH.

Right now the world is spiritually blind.

At the Second Coming all that blindness will be lifted.

People keep pointing out how can people who are deceived now be deceived again. It is simply because at the 6th Seal, the Second Coming, all deception is wiped away. No one on earth will be "in the dark". All will see Christ as Prince as the Lamb slain for all mankind.

All will see God on the Great White Throne. Not the event of Revelation 20. Revelation 20 is just the GWT not heaven or earth as they stopped existing for those dead in Revelation 20.

I am talking about all on earth will see exactly where this Throne has always been and earth is the base, the footstool. Not a modern footstool, but the pedestal the base were the feet rest.

Paul mentions this in Titus 2:12-13

"Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

This is the point of the Second Coming that is not a Coming. It is an appearance. The Revelation of what we cannot see now in spiritual blindness.