When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[amigo de christo]

Ps . Dont poke the bear , this man does indeed seem serious .
Wars and rumors of wars . End time signs are all around .

 

[Truth7t7]

The beast is killed before being given to flame in Daniel but in Revelation 19 the beast is alive when cast into the lake of fire.

We disagree, Daniel 7:11 & Revelation 19:20 are parallel teachings of the same event

 

[Truth7t7]

Ps . Dont poke the bear , this man does indeed seem serious .
Wars and rumors of wars . End time signs are all around .

Putin has no choice, he dosent want Ukraine to join NATO, and have a missile base on his border staring at his military fleet in Crimea?

What would the the US do if Russia or China moved to place missiles on the Mexican border, staring at San Diego in the Naval fleet, same difference?

Putin is asking for a treaty on Ukraine not joining NATO, that's what I've seen?

 

[Truth7t7]

Can you explain please?

It's my opinion the strong delusion will be in the false wonders, "fire from heaven" performed by the false prophet seen in Revelation 13:13-14 below, that will deceive the world into making the image and receiving the mark, in perfect agreement with 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 below

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-11KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[Cassandra]

actually if we read second thess we see why GOD sends the strong delusion .
So that all who rejected the gospel , the love of the truth will believe a lie and be damned . its quite simple
when we read the glorious good book called the bible . Paul says very clearly WHY its sent and who its sent too .

This is the part I want to know about is what the poster meant by this: "act of love given by God for your protection." So God sends a delusion for someone to believe a lie, and that is for their protection?

 

[ewq1938]

We disagree, Daniel 7:11 & Revelation 19:20 are parallel teachings of the same event

Then address the contradiction. Is the beast dead when burned or is the beast alive when burned?

 

[Randy Kluth]

We should anticipate our redemption when we start to see the signs for it is here suddenly. It could not be in the same vein as business as usual through the ages! That is why Jesus mentions it. When we start to see the signs boom, watch out it is time to look up. When we begin to see some signs do you think that will be a time to go see a financial planner, or horde food etc? No, Jesus says look up for it is near then. The time to look down and on things of the world will be over. That will be the time when believers can finally just look up. There is no need to ignorantly look over the sea hoping a whale pops up then! He told us that the redemption (the pop up) is here almost. That means that when all the signs are seen and over, we are already long redeemed. All we need is the start of some of the signs happening.

I think you're looking at this in a very earthly way. This has nothing to do with business planning! This has nothing to do with imminent expectation of cataclysmic events or a sudden Rapture!

No, this has everything to do with keeping ourselves pure and ready at all times for our future glory. We live in the Spirit precisely so that are always dressed in the right clothes, in pure white clothes that speak of Christ' righteousness.

In doing so we will be glad that we did so when the Kingdom comes, and we are rewarded for our faithfulness. And we will be happy we helped others along that path. It has absolutely nothing to do with making business decisions, etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with trying to anticipate a sudden event! On the contrary, if we live in righteousness every day, we have no need to worry about what happens next.

Chapter and verse?
Christians always were to look upward that is true. However there comes the time when signs begin to happen that it is really time to actually look up, it's all over now for us here on earth. We are going up in the air. Bye bye world. Yet at that time the world will still be here, and the rest of the signs happening down there! Likewise, when the believing Jews in Jerusalem one day see that abomination set up, they are not supposed to sit there looking up, treating employees fairly or etc etc! They will need to run for their lives. It is not business as usual any more.

I'm not sure. Jesus was saying that judgment is coming to nations, and Christians, in those times, need to be ready to look to Heaven for their directions. We need to keep our hope firmly in our eternal salvation, and not worry so much about the things of this life.

Jesus just told us when our redemption was arriving! When we start to see the things happen. That is when we need to look up, for the train is at the station. No one knows the day. No one ever did know the day. People never even know the season! But when believers begin to see the signs spoken about, then they will know that it is almost here literally.

Trouble is, Jesus was talking about things that happened 2000 years ago! He was warning his Jewish Disciples that judgment was visibly approaching their nation. That's the time they needed to look to God, instead of to the nation. Salvation comes from Heaven, and not from crumbling religious structures.

Who can prepare for being caught up into the air and given immortal bodies and living with Jesus forever? All we can do is try to be ready. Watch and pray. But for the folks there when the signs START to happen, they can know it is time!

I don't think anybody is being asked to try to prepare for a sudden heavenly event! You're right--it's impossible to prepare for something like that. Even an asteroid can be anticipated through the use of telescopes. But Christ coming from heaven? That's impossible to prepare for.

And so we weren't asked to prepare for that in any way but by asking us to be spiritually and morally prepared, to treat our neighbors properly. We were told that Christ isn't in fact coming until it's time to end Antichrist. So we aren't even being told to anticipate a sudden any-moment event. On the contrary, we're being asked to prepare by moral preparation, by being ready spiritually, by always living in service to Christ. That's how you prepare--not by trying to be ready for a sudden any-moment appearance!

That does not apply to the people who see the abomination set up. They are not to watch, they already saw! They need to run. The people who SEE the signs start to happen can also SEE. Once we have already watched these things begin to happen, we no longer really need to watch for them! What we need to do at that time is smile and look up. We're here, we will say.

Yes, but Jesus was in fact telling his Jewish Disciples to be on the lookout for the desolating Roman Army that would surround Jerusalem like birds of prey, like eagles. They would in reality live through this time, and he was warning them about it--God would provide a way of escape if they looked to Heaven. If they believed in Jesus' warning, they could look to him after he had gone to heaven.

Yes they will suffer, but it also comes on all the world! After the redemption of the church, God deals with Israel and the rest of the world. That is when all the things written are fulfilled, not just when we start to see some of the things begin to occur!
There is no possibility that you could put the events of the end of the world in history.

All of history, past, present, and future is God's history. None of it lacks God's guidance by His word. What Jesus' generation went through repeats itself in Christian nations. It has been happening all through history.

You can't say that God hasn't been dealing with Israel all through history. He has! He's been taking out a remnant of Jews for Christianity all through history--He just hasn't ended the domination of Jewish leaders who prevent the Christianization of the nation. That will happen when the Gentile nations are finished going through what ancient Israel already went through.

 

[Truth7t7]

Then address the contradiction. Is the beast dead when burned or is the beast alive when burned?

The beast is alive and destroyed by the burning flame in Daniel 7:11, that's my understanding, and scripture isnt in contradiction, its our lack of understanding

Daniel 7:11 & Revelation 19:20 are parallel teachings of the same event

We Disagree, The Horse Is Dead

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[ewq1938]

The beast is alive and destroyed by the burning flame in Daniel 7:11, that's my understanding

No, Daniel says the beast is dead first.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

1. The beast was slain.
2. His body destroyed.
3. Dead and destroyed body given to flame.


That's not what John saw:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

1. Beast is alive.
2. Body is not destroyed.
3. Cast into the lake of fire alive.

 

[dad]

I think you're looking at this in a very earthly way. This has nothing to do with business planning! This has nothing to do with imminent expectation of cataclysmic events or a sudden Rapture!

That is business, God's business.

No, this has everything to do with keeping ourselves pure and ready at all times for our future glory.

Keeping ourselves pure? I thought what made us pure was the blood of Jesus. How do you top that?

We live in the Spirit precisely so that are always dressed in the right clothes, in pure white clothes that speak of Christ' righteousness.

His righteousness, yes. He is righteous. It is not like we try real hard and buy bleach and work up some nice white clothes. He clothes us!

In doing so we will be glad that we did so when the Kingdom comes, and we are rewarded for our faithfulness.

Not rewarded with salvation. That is the gift of God. He paid for it. He will reward us according to our works , yes, that is not getting ready for the Rapture though. Works is doing what we can for Him who did it all for us.

And we will be happy we helped others along that path.

You seem to associate that with being ready to meet Him in the air?

It has absolutely nothing to do with making business decisions, etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with trying to anticipate a sudden event!

He told us to look up, what would you call that, not anticipating?!

On the contrary, if we live in righteousness every day, we have no need to worry about what happens next.

If you did that He would not have needed to die either.

I'm not sure. Jesus was saying that judgment is coming to nations, and Christians, in those times, need to be ready to look to Heaven for their directions.

No, He is saying we are not appointed to wrath actually. Ready or not here He comes!

We need to keep our hope firmly in our eternal salvation, and not worry so much about the things of this life.

Looking up when we start to see the things He spoke of is not worrying.

Trouble is, Jesus was talking about things that happened 2000 years ago! He was warning his Jewish Disciples that judgment was visibly approaching their nation. That's the time they needed to look to God, instead of to the nation. Salvation comes from Heaven, and not from crumbling religious structures.

He was talking to people that would see the signs He talked about in the end mainly. The people alive then would not see them.

I don't think anybody is being asked to try to prepare for a sudden heavenly event! You're right--it's impossible to prepare for something like that. Even an asteroid can be anticipated through the use of telescopes. But Christ coming from heaven? That's impossible to prepare for.

We simply need to believe, and be saved, then we are ready. Not like we need to do calisthenics and practice sitting on nails or something.

And so we weren't asked to prepare for that in any way but by asking us to be spiritually and morally prepared, to treat our neighbors properly. We were told that Christ isn't in fact coming until it's time to end Antichrist. So we aren't even being told to anticipate a sudden any-moment event. On the contrary, we're being asked to prepare by moral preparation, by being ready spiritually, by always living in service to Christ. That's how you prepare--not by trying to be ready for a sudden any-moment appearance!

His return to earth with us is after the man of sin does his thing. What goes up must come down. We go up, then we come back down later with Him. Paul told us about that mystery. There are many who cannot see it.

Yes, but Jesus was in fact telling his Jewish Disciples to be on the lookout for the desolating Roman Army that would surround Jerusalem like birds of prey, like eagles. They would in reality live through this time, and he was warning them about it--God would provide a way of escape if they looked to Heaven. If they believed in Jesus' warning, they could look to him after he had gone to heaven.

Luke 21:11
And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
So what was the signs in the heavens at the time? Were there a lot of earthquakes happening in different places in the time from when Jesus spoke here till the apostles died?? Pestilence? Did a lot of people claim they were the messiah in that time?

Luke 21:21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luke 21:22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Did they flee for their lives when an abomination was set up in that time also? Were all things written in Scripture prophesy fulfilled in that time?
Were the times of the gentiles fulfilled then??

Luke 21:26
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Did they see Jesus return from heaven then?? (hint: He had not even left to go up to heaven yet). Do you really think that a Roman military action qualified as being the powers of heaven being shaken!!?

All of history, past, present, and future is God's history. None of it lacks God's guidance by His word. What Jesus' generation went through repeats itself in Christian nations. It has been happening all through history.

The Great Tribulation to come actually will be unlike anything ever in history or even the future! (as for 'christian nations' I'll leave that for another thread)

You can't say that God hasn't been dealing with Israel all through history. He has! He's been taking out a remnant of Jews for Christianity all through history--He just hasn't ended the domination of Jewish leaders who prevent the Christianization of the nation. That will happen when the Gentile nations are finished going through what ancient Israel already went through.

That has what to do with what here?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

This is true...but with the understanding that "the living in Christ" also includes the living (alive in the Spirit) who have already come to the end of their days on earth, as well as those "alive and remaining."

Each is taken "each in his own order." This is also what Christ referred to, saying, "one shall be taken and one left", which refers rather to the Spirit being taken, but the flesh being left.

The actual meaning of taken and left are the opposite to your belief. Those who are left are left alive. Those who are taken are thrown into the lake of fire. Just like the flood. Those who were taken were destroyed.

Matthew:
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

Luke:
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

 

[n2thelight]

Can you explain please?

God will judge no one in ignorance ,the strong delusion is for those who simply don't or can't understand the truth of His Word
Do you see all these different view's on this forum as well as many other's ,well it ain't but one truth ,although well meaning the doctrine taught is still wrong in most cases.

To know the truth and not do it is one of the worst things one can do to our Father
He's protecting you from yourself

 

[ewq1938]

The actually meaning of taken and left are the opposite to your belief. Those who are left are left alive. Those who are taken are thrown into the lake of fire. Just like the flood. Those who were taken were destroyed.

Matthew:
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

Luke:
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

That's not even the correct passage. The one taken and left isn't in that passage lol It's YOU that has it backwards.

Here's the correct biblical passages:

Mat_24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat_24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Luk_17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk_17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk_17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"

Luk 18:31 Then he took (paralambano) unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.


Same word and meaning here.


Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (second coming reference), and receive you (paralambano) unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


This is the rapture and guess what? The same exact word and meaning is here too. The one taken is a reference to the rapture.


The one left (this word means to divorce, leave to die and reject) are those left to suffer God's wrath and possibly die.



left
863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"abandon, leave destitute"

That's the complete opposite as being "taken" and is very negative. Do you
want to be rejected at the return of Christ or do you want to be accepted?
Christ takes the first one from the field and the rest is "left" by him, and
are "kept no longer".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That's not even the correct passage. The one taken and left isn't in that passage lol It's YOU that has it backwards.

Here's the correct biblical passages:

Mat_24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat_24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Luk_17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk_17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk_17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

LOL You just quoted the same verses. ROFL

They are synoptic verses and explain each other. Luke explains Matthew, that took/taken means destroyed, not raptured as many like to think.

Matthew:
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.

Luke:
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

 

[ewq1938]

LOL You just quoted the same verses. ROFL

No, ROFL, I cited different verses, the actual one taken and one left scriptures. YOU posted the wrong verses.

 

[ewq1938]

that took/taken means destroyed, not raptured as many like to think.

paralambano does not mean to be destroyed. paralambano is the rapture as mentioned here:

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (second coming reference), and receive you (paralambano) unto myself (rapture reference); that where I am, there ye may be also.

Mat_24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken (paralambano), and the other left.
Mat_24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (paralambano), and the other left.

 

[ScottA]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This is quite commonly misunderstood as a put off meaning that Jesus has not returned, when in fact that is not what it says. But it only eludes to what is meant, whereby imposing the same type of blindness place upon Israel, now also placed upon the gentiles for the same reason: until the fullness of the gentiles has come in. You see, Paul could not just blurt it out--that is not how God works, but rather, here a line and there a line, precept upon precept. But the time draw ever closer.

What the passage--what Paul's explanation says, is exactly true, just not how it appears, not how it is commonly believed to be. All it really says, is if you are not dead yet, if you are still breathing, and if the Spirit has not told you otherwise--you do not need to worry, He is not ready to be revealed to you--not while the fullness of the gentiles is still being gathered.

But that can only be perceived as true if one also knows by the Spirit just what is meant by the "falling away" that comes first, and also "that man of sin" that is to be revealed.

But again, while this is all completely true, it is just more simple than learned men could and can image. And if I speak plainly, will you not join those learned men to deny what has been kept for the appointed time? But I will speak plainly--just as it is written: The "falling away" is the fall--the fall of all mankind...which has been made manifest in the birth of all who are born since Adam, that "that man of sin", that man of flesh and blood, should be revealed. Yes--these happen first!

 

[ScottA]

In the world, He said we would have tribulation. He was leaving this world and we saw Him do that. The time which Jesus said THEN shall be great tribulation unlike anything ever seen is clear. That time is when a specific event takes place and the tribulation (Jesus confirmed was what Daniel was talking about) has a specific length of time that it happens within.

You just put Jesus's ascension before Him speaking of great tribulations.

But, no, that is in the wrong order. This is the proper order: First He spoke of great tribulation, then the greatest tribulation--all tribulations--the complete wrath of God came upon Jesus, then He rose from the dead, and ascended to be with the Father.

If you do not have that right, Daniel will be wrong also.

 

[ScottA]

Until the time it starts, and that time referred to was when the abomination was placed. That time could never have happened in history, and when that time starts, the clock starts ticking. It only will and can last a few years.

Tell me...what is more great than the abomination of Christ crucified--which takes away of the sacrifice, the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world?

But again...your compass should have pointed you to Christ. Therefore you are groping in the dark.

 

[ScottA]

Yes He timed it using the clock of Daniel.

Indeed He did.