When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[dad]

satan comes in peacefully

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
satan is coming disguised as an "angel of light", and the true "Angel of Light" is Jesus Christ. He is coming disguised as the Savior,

Can you tell me exactly how he pulls this off ,if he's running around killing people?
Don't get me wrong people will die ,however it will be at the hands of Christians who think they do God a service

Most religions think they have light. Are you suggesting the AC will ignore them all and claim only to be Jesus?

John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Take a look below at the people who were deceived when they find out they were


Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

At Jesus Christ's return there will be a mighty shaking. Those mountains are nations, and they will not only be moved, but removed and not exist as governing bodies. There will be only Christ's Kingdom left on this earth, as we move into the Millennium, the 1,000 year period of Christ's kingdom.

I see, you wave away the mountains to get things to fit as you need them to. OK So when that we see something like this-

Revelation 6:14
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Does that mean the heavens are not really the heavens also?

Or when we see this -

Revelation 8:8
And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Does that mean a great kingdom fell from the sky? Or is the sea not really the sea and an angel not really an angel..etc? We toss it all out and simply ask you what you would like anything to mean?

All mankind except for God's elect, the remnant, and the 144,000 of chapter seven, will be part of Satan's [Antichrist's] kingdom.

I see. So who is this 'fringe minority' that came out of the great tribulation?

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

When the rest of the Christians see our Lord Jesus Christ coming, they will all know immediately what they have done. Then the shame will be great, to the point of wishing to perish, if it were possible. But it will not be possible for all souls will be changed into their incorruptible bodies at the coming of Christ. I Corinthians 15:50-54 reveals that no flesh and blood can nor will exist at that time, nor will any of the things dealing with the flesh body exist.

Thanks for showing us how confused you really are.

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

This bears repeating, but if you simply cannot understand that the Antichrist comes first, before Jesus Christ's return, you will worship the Antichrist as the true Christ.

Of course that man of sin comes before the return of Jesus to take over this world.
Why do I get the feeling you are conflating that with the Rapture, that came before the man of sin!?

All hell will already be here and you won't even realize it, all Heaven gonna break loose though , 3 1/2 days after he kills the two witnesses.

The believers that were raptured will realize exactly what is going on actually. Sorry if you thought you had some sort of monopoly on that.

 

[dad]

I don't know but if we are in a trumpet past those ones then they are from history. I also don't see most of those things as literal. The sea is usually symbolic of people, and mountains are where kingdoms exist, fire can be violence and war, trees can be people also.

Well you should know if you claim they already happened. It is ridiculous to make such a claim. Never has, for example a third of all plant life on earth been burned up.


In the new heaven and earth, there is no sea. Did you think that meant there are no people!?

 

[n2thelight]

Nope. Satan comes from heaven in the 3rd trumpet and Christ returns at the 7th trumpet. All the seals have already been opened. They are just information of future events. I think we are in the 5th trump and possibly the 6th trump might sound which is the Great Tribulation.

The seals, trumpets and vials are three different stories of judgment that lead to the 2nd coming of Jesus. The best biblical comparison to this is that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are all gospels, but they tell the story differently. The seals, trumpets and vials are similar to the gospels in that way: they say the same thing, but in slightly different ways.

The seals are the longer story, which is why they were listed first. They began in the 1st century AD and will culminate at the 2nd coming of Jesus.

The trumpets are shorter than the seals, which is why they were listed second. The trumpets began in the early 1900s and will culminate at the 2nd coming of Jesus

The vials are the extremely short story, which is why they were listed last. They are the only judgments that have a timeframe of the Great Tribulation. They all take place in the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation, as the judgments are directed towards the kingdom of the beast.

All three of these stories overlap each other and start at different points in history, yet they all culminate on the same day.

 

[n2thelight]

Of course that man of sin comes before the return of Jesus to take over this world.
Why do I get the feeling you are conflating that with the Rapture, that came before the man of sin!?

They only way you'll can come up with a rapture is have Christ return twice more.
Nowhere in scripture does it say we gather to Christ before satan appears , if you'll fly away ,who does satan deceive ?

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

The above is the subject

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

What day?

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].


Please show me anywhere in scripture where Christ returns before this takes place .

 

[ewq1938]

Well you should know if you claim they already happened. It is ridiculous to make such a claim. Never has, for example a third of all plant life on earth been burned up.


In the new heaven and earth, there is no sea. Did you think that meant there are no people!?

Likely a reference to water but sure, there will be no mortal people.

 

[dad]

They only way you'll can come up with a rapture is have Christ return twice more.
Nowhere in scripture does it say we gather to Christ before satan appears , if you'll fly away ,who does satan deceive ?

He was not going to deceive us anyhow. He deceives the world. There is still a world down there after He takes us into the air. The new believers after we go are the new elect. They won't be deceived either! The world will be very divided.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

The above is the subject

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

What day?

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by 1- the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and 2- by our gathering together unto him,

So the subject is 2 things. It looks like the day of the Lord is the second coming, which is after the AC etc. The coming of Christ then seems to refer to the physical return at the end, after the tribulation. So, looking at the verse it says what?
II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

When Paul speaks specifically of the Rapture he says it is a mystery!
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Another mystery in the bible that was not understood was the first coming of Christ! The Jews expected all the parts about Him ruling and destroying their enemies etc to be fulfilled if the messiah came. We understand that mystery now.
1 Corinthians 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first.

The first item is the day of the Lord.

The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment

I agree. Both before the tribulation and after it starts a hallmark of humanity is that there is this great departure from godliness and Scripture and God. When talking about the day of Christ (when He comes back with us) it is very true that there is a falling away! We do have the rest of the bible to shed light on this.

Please show me anywhere in scripture where Christ returns before this takes place .

The seals are the wrath of God. We are not appointed to that wrath. We are given a glimpse of heaven during the tribulation in the bible also. Guess who is THERE and having a marriage feast? Us! The Bride! Then we see that when He comes back to set His feet on the mount of Olives that WE are with Him! How would the bride be in heaven and on earth in the wrath at the same time? Or did you think He'd throw the wedding without us??

 

[dad]

Likely a reference to water but sure, there will be no mortal people.

In heaven actually there was a multitude crying out to God. So there are people in heaven. In the new earth there are people also. Did you think when Jesus walked on water that meant He actually walked on people?

 

[ewq1938]

In heaven actually there was a multitude crying out to God. So there are people in heaven. In the new earth there are people also. Did you think when Jesus walked on water that meant He actually walked on people?

No but it's a fact that water can represent people in Revelation:

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

 

[dad]

No but it's a fact that water can represent people in Revelation:

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Yes, symbols are used but that does not take away from the reality of passages that do not use them. Unless something is clearly indicated as a symbol, we should consider that it is such. You can't wave away something just because occasionally it may have also been used as a symbol. When prophesy says a virgin shall conceive we should not try to pretend that the woman who is the virgin is actually a tree, or a cloud.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, symbols are used but that does not take away from the reality of passages that do not use them. Unless something is clearly indicated as a symbol, we should consider that it is such. You can't wave away something just because occasionally it may have also been used as a symbol. When prophesy says a virgin shall conceive we should not try to pretend that the woman who is the virgin is actually a tree, or a cloud.

You are just stating things everyone understands. We could be in the 5th trump. There is nothing that prevents such an idea.

 

[dad]

You are just stating things everyone understands. We could be in the 5th trump. There is nothing that prevents such an idea.

Show us where a third of the trees and all the grass on earth was burned for starters?

 

[ewq1938]

Show us where a third of the trees and all the grass on earth was burned for starters?

Or maybe it's symbolic so I don't have to show a literal grass burning event.

 

[dad]

Or maybe it's symbolic so I don't have to show a literal grass burning event.

There is no indication that trees are not trees and grass is not grass. You cannot wave away all things that do not fit your personal paradigm

 

[ewq1938]

There is no indication that trees are not trees and grass is not grass. You cannot wave away all things that do not fit your personal paradigm

Gill:

and the third part of trees were burnt up; by which seem to be meant people of the higher rank, the richer sort of people, who suffered much in these calamities; see Isa_2:13; yea, princes, nobles, and rulers, both civil and ecclesiastical, who suffered much at this time, as Jerom (k), who was then living, testifies; and so "trees" are interpreted of kings, rulers, and governors, by the Targum on Isa_2:13; "the trees of the field", in Isa_55:12; are interpreted of kingdoms (l): the Alexandrian copy, the Complutensian edition, the Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read before this clause, "and the third part of the earth was burnt"; that is, of the Roman empire:
and all green grass was burnt up; the common people, who may be compared to spires of "grass" for their multitude, being as it were innumerable; and to "green" grass, for their delightful, comfortable, and flourishing condition before these calamities came upon them; and for their weakness and impotency to withstand such powerful enemies; see Job_5:25; and these commonly suffer most when a country is overrun and plundered by an enemy.




Clarke:

The land was wasted; the trees - the chiefs of the nation, were destroyed; and the grass - the common people, slain, or carried into captivity. High and low, rich and poor, were overwhelmed with one general destruction. This seems to be the meaning of these figures.
Many eminent men suppose that the irruption of the barbarous nations on the Roman empire is here intended. It is easy to find coincidences when fancy runs riot. Later writers might find here the irruption of the Austrians and British, and Prussians, Russians, and Cossacks, on the French empire!

Apparently I am in good company with interpretations of this passage. I'm not surprised.

 

[n2thelight]

The seals are the wrath of God. We are not appointed to that wrath. We are given a glimpse of heaven during the tribulation in the bible also. Guess who is THERE and having a marriage feast? Us! The Bride! Then we see that when He comes back to set His feet on the mount of Olives that WE are with Him! How would the bride be in heaven and on earth in the wrath at the same time? Or did you think He'd throw the wedding without us??

Seals are just like the plagues in Egypt ,Did the Israelites get raptured ,

Please tell me how Christ returns twice?

Oh and where is this glimpse of Heaven, scripture please.

God's wrath is not directed towards those who believe ,in other words you could be standing in the middle of a million unbelievers and not be touched

 

[n2thelight]

That depends if you try to move it all to the day Jesus and us return to earth.

The only people coming back with Christ, are those who have already died

 

[dad]

Apparently I am in good company with interpretations of this passage. I'm not surprised.

"The first trumpet announces widespread devastation on the land (6-7); the second, on the sea (8-9); the third, on the waters of the land (10-11); and the fourth, on the moon and stars (12)"
Revelation 8 - Bridgeway Bible Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
"Third part of the trees, and all green grass ... The denuding of the earth of a significant part of its forests is an astonishing and spectacular feature of a third of the earth this very day. Travelers in Korea and other oriental countries cannot fail to be impressed with this feature of the landscape; and even in America today, where are the mighty forests? Let any man ask the price of 1,000 board-feet of white pine or black walnut, and he will suddenly be aware that the trumpet of God still sounds over the trees.

All the green grass ... This is best understood to mean, "All the grass in the one third of the earth mentioned."[48] All these disasters coming upon the land are under the control of God and are limited. Only a minor part of the earth can be affected by such things. Some have called Revelation the Book of Doom; but it is the opposite of that. It is the book which reveals the Father's limitation and restraint of the doom which already had come when man rebelled against his Creator."
Revelation 8 - Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

"And the third part of trees was burnt up - By the fire that came down with the hail and the blood.

And all green grass was burnt up - Wherever this lighted on the earth. The meaning would seem to be, that wherever this tempest beat the effect was to destroy a third part - that is, a large portion of the trees, and to consume all the grass"

Revelation 8 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

"The third part of the earth was burnt up, and the third part of the trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up . It is certainly a feature to be noticed in the first four trumpets, as contrasted (see on 6:9) with the last three, that they introduce plagues (i), on the powers of nature only, not on men, and (ii) that on these the plague stops short of entire destruction"

Revelation 8 - Cambridge Greek Testament Commentary for Schools and Colleges - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

--to name a few other commentaries.

There are times that men are compared to things in the bible. For example
Mark 8:24 He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.” Notice this is not saying that men are trees or that trees walked around. The same thing is generally true in Revelation. When something is compared it usually says something similar to 'and I saw something like unto something else' or I saw something that was like...' etc.

 

[dad]

Seals are just like the plagues in Egypt ,Did the Israelites get raptured ,

Please tell me how Christ returns twice?

Easy. Once He comes in the air for us, later He returns in body with us, and is seen by all. In the end a common lie being spread will be that He already came and is somewhere on the earth in secret. It makes sense that such a whopper would fit well with the Rapture having happened with millions of people vanishing.

Oh and where is this glimpse of Heaven, scripture please.

Rev 4:
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


Rev 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

God's wrath is not directed towards those who believe ,in other words you could be standing in the middle of a million unbelievers and not be touched

Not in that time. It is coming on the whole earth. God will protect His people to some extent, for example from the sting of the locusts from the bottomless pit. However, the wrath of God is being poured out on the earth. When all the water on earth is poison and blood, that affects everyone, for example.

 

[dad]

The only people coming back with Christ, are those who have already died

Died in Christ or been risen already in the Rapture. What did you think, the Bride would be left in heaven when all the other saints come marching by? The dead in Christ are the first ones to rise in the Rapture, then we that are alive next!

 

[Keraz]

Died in Christ or been risen already in the Rapture. What did you think, the Bride would be left in heaven when all the other saints come marching by? The dead in Christ are the first ones to rise in the Rapture, then we that are alive next!

The belief of a 'rapture to heaven' has many serious faults.
Firstly; the 'harpazo' of 1 Thess 4:17, happens after Jesus has left heaven, on His way to earth. So those who go up to meet Him do not go to heaven, but to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium. Zechariah 14:16-21

Then, the many people in heaven, Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 15:2, are the souls of all the people killed for their faith, since Stephen; in the first Century. They are allowed to cry out at special times.

Also the idea of living people in heaven is totally refuted by Jesus; John 3:13, + many others.

Finally; it is the armies of heaven who accompany Jesus at His Return, Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14