Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ronald Nolette]

Ronald...
I have to disagree with you.
The CC was from the beginning - it's roots can be traced back to the Apostles. (I'm not Catholic - this is plain history).
But I know what you mean about the Catholic Chruch taking hold. I'd say it started when Constantine became involved in church matters in the early 300's.

Well generically speaking- every sect can trace their roots back to teh apostles as far as source of authority.

the church is catholic meaning universal, but the Roman Church was not born until the sixth century under Pope Julius if I remember correctly. It was conceived and grew in the womb so to speak After Constantine ended the persecutions. Then began a slow consolidation of power centering in Rome.

The early church, which would include the Apostolic Fathers did NOT believe in OSAS. They taught that we are to follow the Commandments and that one can leave the faith and thus become lost again.

Paul certainly taught OSAS to teh gentile church and James, and Peter taught it to the Jewish wing of the church! Hebrews, James and Peter are woefully misunderstood today

As to persons wanting control over their salvation...
Do you believe we have no control to keep the faith?
Paul clearly teaches that the faith can be abandoned.

No we have a responsibility ot grow in grace and knowledge.

You list bverses, half of which have nothing to do with salvation or keeping or losing salvation. I can list teh myriad of verses that show one cannot lose their salvation.

But I love the verses that show about people who appeared saved when in fact they weren't.

JOhn writing about those who left, because they were never of us!
Jesus who told Christ like living people He NEVER knew them (never saved)
The Parables of teh wheat and tares.

Thien the verses that say were are kept by Jesus.
To believe that one can sin their way out of salvation (and lsoiing faith for a season is a sin) is to say Jesus did not forgive all our sins when we got saved! For He knew He would yank our salvation cuz of imperfection. I rely on Scripture and it saying that those who leave the faith, were NEVER saved to begin with. Sin is no longer an issue in a believers life! God punished Jesus for all my sins and when I placed my trust in HIs death and physical resurrection- all my sins were put on HIs account. That is not alicense to sin, but a license to live righteously though imperfectly.

 

[Marymog]

You were sprinkled, Not baptized (you were not even dipped - Bapto)

How do you know that? Were you at my baptism?

 

[Marymog]

So in niether case were you BAPTIZED in anything

Once again, Please do not try to teach people about baptism when you have not even been baptised yourself

Once again, Please don't call me a liar and tell me that I have not been baptized when I told you I was. That is unless you are accusing my deceased parents of being liars?

I am not teaching anyone about baptism. I am repeating the 2,000 year teaching of what The Church has taught about baptism. You are repeating the 500 year old teaching of what your men have taught you.

 

[Marymog]

LOL...what are the elders if not other men?

They are 'other men'. But if you knew and followed Scripture you would know that those "other men" are to pay careful attention to themselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made them overseers.

They are to care for the church of God. They are appointed by other elders as elders and they are to exercise oversight over those in your charge. They must be above reproach, hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught to them by other elders so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. We are, as Scripture says, to submit ourselves to our elders. They are the men of The Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth and whom we are to go to to settle our differences. THEY decide who is to be treated as a pagan/tax collector.....just like Scripture says.

So Taken, which 'elders' do you follow? I know you won't answer but I thought it would be fun to ask so I can see how you dodge that question....;)

 

[Marymog]

As the interpretation of the Scriptures is given by the Holy Spirit.

Given to WHO?

 

[Marymog]

but the Roman Church was not born until the sixth century under Pope Julius if I remember correctly. It was conceived and grew in the womb so to speak After Constantine ended the persecutions. Then began a slow consolidation of power centering in Rome....

Complete twisting of Christian history. Historical Christian documents show that Rome was recognized by Christians throughout the world as being the seat of The Church LONG before "the sixth century". Do some research instead of giving opinions....

 

[Taken]

They are 'other men'. But if you knew and followed Scripture you would know that those "other men" are to pay careful attention to themselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made them overseers.
They are to care for the church of God. They are appointed by other elders as elders and they are to exercise oversight over those in your charge. They must be above reproach, hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught to them by other elders so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. We are, as Scripture says, to submit ourselves to our elders. They are the men of The Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth and whom we are to go to to settle our differences. THEY decide who is to be treated as a pagan/tax collector.....just like Scripture says.

Jesus’ appointments...

Matt 10: [2-4] Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;....
(Peter, Andrew, James, John. Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew James, Thaddaeus, Simon and Judas Iscariot). who also betrayed him.

[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Gal 1:
[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me (SAUL) from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
[16] To reveal his Son (JESUS) in me, that I (PAUL) might preach him (Christ Jesus) among the heathens...

Acts 9:
[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Saul/Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

So Taken, which 'elders' do you follow? I know you won't answer but I thought it would be fun to ask so I can see how you dodge that question....;)

;) <—->

Very familiar with Catholic ways of projecting they are MINDREADERS and taught they are authorized to SPEAK FOR OTHERS and IF others do not acquiesce TO their nonsense....they can be called any number of fixed names...(from anti-Catholic, hater, dodger, etc.).

Not a mystery. I am a Gentile. I follow the Way of Christ the Lord Jesus and whom he (Paul) appointed to teach the Gentiles.
I have no list of all the men Paul appointed as elders in all the Churches in the Middle East 2,000 years ago. But I do have Pauls teachings inscribed in script available for my own reading pleasure and benefit.

 

[Taken]

Given to WHO?

Basic Biblical New Testament Principle 101.......Those Converted “IN” Christ.

 

[Marymog]

Basic Biblical New Testament Principle 101.......Those Converted “IN” Christ.

That's a pretty broad statement. Soooo your men have taught you that those who are "converted in Christ" are the ones who are given the ability to interpret Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit. What criteria do you use to determine if someone has been "Converted IN Christ"?

@GRACE ambassador liked your post but I am willing to bet the two of you disagree on WHO is converted in Christ to properly interpret Scripture. Have I got it right grace? :)

 

[Marymog]

Jesus’ appointments...

Matt 10: [2-4] Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;....
(Peter, Andrew, James, John. Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew James, Thaddaeus, Simon and Judas Iscariot). who also betrayed him.

[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Gal 1:
[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me (SAUL) from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
[16] To reveal his Son (JESUS) in me, that I (PAUL) might preach him (Christ Jesus) among the heathens...

Acts 9:
[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Saul/Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:



;) <—->

Very familiar with Catholic ways of projecting they are MINDREADERS and taught they are authorized to SPEAK FOR OTHERS and IF others do not acquiesce TO their nonsense....they can be called any number of fixed names...(from anti-Catholic, hater, dodger, etc.).

Not a mystery. I am a Gentile. I follow the Way of Christ the Lord Jesus and whom he (Paul) appointed to teach the Gentiles.
I have no list of all the men Paul appointed as elders in all the Churches in the Middle East 2,000 years ago. But I do have Pauls teachings inscribed in script available for my own reading pleasure and benefit.

You crack me up..... Soooo YOU have Paul's teaching for YOUR reading pleasure and benefit. When you read Paul's teaching do you fulfil what is written in 2 Peter 3:16? Or are you one of the stable men that don't twist Scripture and the men of the Catholic Church do twist Scripture?

Who's nonsense do you acquiesce to? Your own? Or do you belong to a church with elders and you acquiesce to their nonsense?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Jesus’ appointments...

Matt 10: [2-4] Now the names of the twelve apostles are these;....
(Peter, Andrew, James, John. Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew James, Thaddaeus, Simon and Judas Iscariot). who also betrayed him.

[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Gal 1:
[15] But when it pleased God, who separated me (SAUL) from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
[16] To reveal his Son (JESUS) in me, that I (PAUL) might preach him (Christ Jesus) among the heathens...

Acts 9:
[15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Saul/Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:



;) <—->

Very familiar with Catholic ways of projecting they are MINDREADERS and taught they are authorized to SPEAK FOR OTHERS and IF others do not acquiesce TO their nonsense....they can be called any number of fixed names...(from anti-Catholic, hater, dodger, etc.).

Not a mystery. I am a Gentile. I follow the Way of Christ the Lord Jesus and whom he (Paul) appointed to teach the Gentiles.
I have no list of all the men Paul appointed as elders in all the Churches in the Middle East 2,000 years ago. But I do have Pauls teachings inscribed in script available for my own reading pleasure and benefit.

I am willing to bet that @GRACE ambassador believes they follow the Way of Christ the Lord Jesus AND I am willing to bet the two of you disagree with each other. So which one of you is REALLY following "the Way of Christ"?

You two crack me up.....

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Complete twisting of Christian history. Historical Christian documents show that Rome was recognized by Christians throughout the world as being the seat of The Church LONG before "the sixth century". Do some research instead of giving opinions....

By many Christians sure! You don't get a Church overnight. It started with Constantine and was born with Pope . Constantine was centralizing church authority in Rome and it culminated when was crowned Pope and ruler of the whole church-= the First pope to be formally entitled.

If you use another metric you may come out with a different date but that to me is the most reliable, when the Pople wasd formally declared the head of the whole church!

It is true that in 380 it was declared that the RCC was the only recognized church in the empire.

Went back and did some ore researching. I was off by a century! it was the fifth century with Pope Leo 1 when power was centralized in Rome in the western empire and He was the first pope called Patriarch of teh West. I apologize for the error.

I must remember to relook at these little used things I leanred in bible college over 35 years ago.

 

[GodsGrace]

Given to WHO?

I hate to say this but have stated it many times...

Not only to WHOM is the interpretation of scripture given (your question to the other poster)
But I'd say WHICH interpretation is given.

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit teaches different truths to different persons.

Some also espouse ideas that are not found in scripture.

Maybe we need a Protestant Pope??
Or, at least, an authoritative body of theologians/scholars that actually know How to interpret scripture.

 

[Pearl]

Maybe we need a Protestant Pope??

There is the Archbishop of Canterbury - Justin Welby - who is the highest rank in the Anglican church worldwide.

 

[Taken]

That's a pretty broad statement. Soooo your men have taught you that those who are "converted in Christ" are the ones who are given the ability to interpret Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit. What criteria do you use to determine if someone has been "Converted IN Christ"?

They is no such thing as “my men”.
Jesus made His appointments.
I have no criteria to determine “IF” someone is converted in Christ.
If another says he is, I have a “indication”. If he does works According to God, I have a “greater indication”.
If he is telling the truth, God Knows. If he is lying, God knows.

@GRACE ambassador liked your post but I am willing to bet the two of you disagree on WHO is converted in Christ to properly interpret Scripture. Have I got it right grace? :)[/QUOTE]

God is the interpreter of His Word and the Scriptures thereof.
To receive the interpretation of His Word, IS to receive Gods spiritual understanding.

He who can give a man Gods spiritual understanding IS the Lord God Himself.


:)

 

[Taken]

You crack me up..... Soooo YOU have Paul's teaching for YOUR reading pleasure and benefit. When you read Paul's teaching do you fulfil what is written in 2 Peter 3:16? Or are you one of the stable men that don't twist Scripture and the men of the Catholic Church do twist Scripture?

Who's nonsense do you acquiesce to? Your own? Or do you belong to a church with elders and you acquiesce to their nonsense?

Curious Mary

If you stopped for a moment from taking pleasure in your ignorance and actually read Scripture, there is nothing outside of Scripture I have said.

Most of Scripture is TO Israel Gods People, and again to TO Israel Gods People, and an introduction to Gentiles who can become INCLUDED as sons of God, and ending in Tribulation of men who are NOT Gods people, and Springing Forth into a NEW WORLD where by ALL of the Saved are Gods People.

Whether or not YOU know whom to acquiesce TO and follow and if you think they teach nonsense....is your burden, not mine.

 

[Marymog]

If you stopped for a moment from taking pleasure in your ignorance and actually read Scripture, there is nothing outside of Scripture I have said.

Most of Scripture is TO Israel Gods People, and again to TO Israel Gods People, and an introduction to Gentiles who can become INCLUDED as sons of God, and ending in Tribulation of men who are NOT Gods people, and Springing Forth into a NEW WORLD where by ALL of the Saved are Gods People.

Whether or not YOU know whom to acquiesce TO and follow and if you think they teach nonsense....is your burden, not mine.

Hey dodge ball.....answer my question: Who's nonsense do you acquiesce to? Your own? Do you belong to a church with elders and you acquiesce to their nonsense?

 

[Marymog]

They is no such thing as “my men”.
Jesus made His appointments.
I have no criteria to determine “IF” someone is converted in Christ.
If another says he is, I have a “indication”. If he does works According to God, I have a “greater indication”.
If he is telling the truth, God Knows. If he is lying, God knows.

@GRACE ambassador liked your post but I am willing to bet the two of you disagree on WHO is converted in Christ to properly interpret Scripture. Have I got it right grace? :)

God is the interpreter of His Word and the Scriptures thereof.
To receive the interpretation of His Word, IS to receive Gods spiritual understanding.

He who can give a man Gods spiritual understanding IS the Lord God Himself.


:)[/QUOTE]
Ok....so you don't have men you listen to. Got it...You listen to yourself.

If someone says they are converted in Christ that is an "indication they are converted in Christ. If they do works according to God, that is a "greater indication"....but neither of those aren't criteria?

I am converted in Christ and I do works according to God. I have I met your "indications" (not criteria) to have the ability to interpret Scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit?

What criteria (or indications) do you look for in a person to determine if God has given them 'spiritual understanding'?

Or on the flip side, what indications do you look for to determine that God DIDN'T give them "spiritual understanding" and they are preaching a false doctrine? You have already done this when it comes to the men of The Catholic Church sooooo you can't tell me that you don't have "indications" (or criteria) to make this determination....

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

I hate to say this but have stated it many times...

Not only to WHOM is the interpretation of scripture given (your question to the other poster)
But I'd say WHICH interpretation is given.

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit teaches different truths to different persons.

Some also espouse ideas that are not found in scripture.

Maybe we need a Protestant Pope??
Or, at least, an authoritative body of theologians/scholars that actually know How to interpret scripture.

Hi GG,

It would be nice if Protestants could coalesce behind one person (entity) but that will never happen!

There already is an "authoritative body of theologians/scholars"! Some choose to accept them. Some don't.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

By many Christians sure! You don't get a Church overnight. It started with Constantine and was born with Pope . Constantine was centralizing church authority in Rome and it culminated when was crowned Pope and ruler of the whole church-= the First pope to be formally entitled.

If you use another metric you may come out with a different date but that to me is the most reliable, when the Pople wasd formally declared the head of the whole church!

It is true that in 380 it was declared that the RCC was the only recognized church in the empire.

Went back and did some ore researching. I was off by a century! it was the fifth century with Pope Leo 1 when power was centralized in Rome in the western empire and He was the first pope called Patriarch of teh West. I apologize for the error.

I must remember to relook at these little used things I leanred in bible college over 35 years ago.

Complete lie. You should learn your Christian history instead of giving opinion.

Constantine did not invent Catholicism, he simply recognized it and let ALL people legally be Christian. Christians were having "Catholic masses" long before this "legalization" of Christianity. Three hundred years before Constantine it is very clear thru historical Christian documents that Christians believed in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, honored Mary, had elaborate ceremonies, prayed for the dead, respected the Church hierarchy, baptized babies, recognized Peter as the Rock, built the Church upon him with successors and followed a rich tradition of Christianity. That was the Christianity of the early days of Christianity and that is the Catholic Church of today.

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. —Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 110AD

But inasmuch as love suffers me not to be silent in regard to you, I have therefore taken upon me first to exhort you that you would all run together in accordance with the will of God. For even Jesus Christ, our inseparable life, is the manifested will of the Father; as also bishops, settled everywhere to the utmost bounds of the earth, are so by the will of Jesus Christ… Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop, in order that we may be subject to God. — Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians, 108AD

Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the greatness of the Most High Father and in Jesus Christ, his only son; to the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is; to the Church which also holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and because you hold the presidency of love, named after Christ and named after the Father; here therefore do I salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father. —Letter to the Romans, Intro 108AD

So stop with your lies.....:cool: