Hebrews 3-4: Not About Sabbath-Keeping

[marks]

I found the following piece in your link to be a pretty good read, Mailman.
Giving Sabbath a Rest

To begin to trust God fully, I had to let go of my spiritual safety net. The law had led me to Christ, and now I needed to live by the Spirit.

And that’s when I experienced rest. This rest had nothing to do with a day or a break from my regular routine.

:)

 

[ReChoired]

Seems like a good writer.

Listen, I'm just checking in for a second, but thought I would give you a response I wrote up yesterday to his/ your position on Hebrews 3 - 4. Respectfully, I think it is a forced interpretation that seeks to establish sabbath-keeping as the dominant teaching of the text, but this contention is not well-substantiated and actually foreign to the source material (the OT texts).

You'll have to take it up with him. He has a contact page. He can, and does, speak for himself. He may have the time to address your concern.

 

[ReChoired]

I’m mostly concerned about people who pervert the gospel. Salvation is not by “grace plus law, faith plus works” as SDA’s teach. Here is a statement below from a SDA from a different Christian forum site:

“The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.“

Sabbatismos update:

I receive an automated reply so far, here it is:

"We appreciate you taking the time to write to Sabbatismos. If you've asked a question or indicated you'd like to receive a reply, please allow up to two weeks for a response.

If you do not receive a personal message within 2 weeks, please write again, this time being especially careful to type your email address correctly.

God bless,

Joe Rector"

So, I am still waiting for an actual response that is not a bot.

 

[mailmandan]

Sabbatismos update:

I receive an automated reply so far, here it is:

"We appreciate you taking the time to write to Sabbatismos. If you've asked a question or indicated you'd like to receive a reply, please allow up to two weeks for a response.

If you do not receive a personal message within 2 weeks, please write again, this time being especially careful to type your email address correctly.

God bless,

Joe Rector"

So, I am still waiting for an actual response that is not a bot.

What reply are you looking for? There are multiple articles on that site which cover a lot of material.

 

[ReChoired]

What reply are you looking for? There are multiple articles on that site which cover a lot of material.

Yes, erroneous material. I will share their response/s when it/they comes, and any dialogue that ensues in my response/s. Their contradiction/s will make itself/themselves known.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

IF the sabbath was indeed still in place and to be placed upon the Church , why was that never stated in the NT Epistles, especially when the Apostles met on the gentiles getting saved question in acts?

*Facepalm* James clearly mentioned that Moses' writings were read to the Gentiles every Sabbath in Acts 15:21. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

@Pearl "Better" is a keyword in Hebrews... :)

Hebrews says the New Covenant is based on better promises, not better laws. This is a prime example of what Peter talked about when he warned that wicked people would twist Paul's words. Read Heb. 8:6 and show where Paul talked about the New Covenant being based on better laws. Hebrews 100% affirms what God said in Jeremiah about Him changing where His laws will be placed, not their relevance. The difference between the Covenants is that the New Covenant is based on the fact that everyone under it are empowered to keep God's laws.

Jesus was born under the Mosaic law, and they were indeed under the Jewish Sabbath, but when the New Covenant was ushered in, the church was never placed back under it!

Luk. 23:56 shows Jesus' female followers keeping the Sabbath days after His death, and Heb. 9:16-17 says the New Covenant was instituted the moment Jesus died. Arguments like yours' are typically made from a place of ignorance, dishonesty, and presumption, and not from what the Bible clearly teaches.

Probably because none but the Jewish people kept it so by default the sabbath was Jewish.

Adam, Eve, Noah, Enoch, and Abraham kept the Sabbath, and they weren't Jewish. I also remember Jesus explicitly stating that the Sabbaths are His in both the OT and NT. So how is that the Sabbath is Jewish when it was observed millennia before there was ever a such thing as a Jew? Where exactly does the Bible teach that it was only for them to keep? I guarantee you won't find it, because Jesus stated in Mar. 2 that all of mankind is supposed to keep the Sabbath.

Okay then if we're being picky - he broke the laws of the sabbath.

If Jesus broke the Sabbath, then He isn't the Messiah since He was supposed to live a perfect life. And if Jesus wasn't the Messiah, then the Orthodox Jews are right when they say that Man hasn't come yet. Do you realize how absurd this claim is?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Good afternoon, GEN2REV.

This answer kinda doesn't make any argument. You see, my OP isn't making the assertion that they weren't keeping the sabbath during the NT era. In fact, the quote from the Epistle of Barnabas admits that they were, when he said, "Wherefore we also keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead." It means they were keeping both the 7th Day and the 1st Day (i.e. the "8th Day") early on. This is confirmed by other early sources as well:

Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner and rejoice in days of idleness... But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law not in relaxation of the body... nor in eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, nor walking within a prescribed space... And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ also keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days. (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter 9, 110 A.D.)

The question posed in the OP was, do Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 deal specifically with the subject of sabbath observance or do they refer to something else, based on the context.

So if you will, go through the entire two Chapters for me and give me your exegesis of the entire passage so we can go through things piece by piece. That's what I am after from those who would respond to the contrary.

God bless, and thanks for the response.
- H

Interesting. I hadn't read it that way before (both).

Barnabas 15:8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot
away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present
Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have
made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make
the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another
world.

 

[Pearl]

If Jesus broke the Sabbath, then He isn't the Messiah since He was supposed to live a perfect life. And if Jesus wasn't the Messiah, then the Orthodox Jews are right when they say that Man hasn't come yet. Do you realize how absurd this claim is?

What would you call it then when he did things on the Sabbath that, according to the religious leaders of the time, he wasn't supposed to do?

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

What would you call it then when he did things on the Sabbath that, according to the religious leaders of the time, he wasn't supposed to do?

Jesus violated the religious leaders' rules concerning how the Sabbath was to be kept. That was the issue from Jesus' perspective, not whether or not the Sabbath should be kept. Jesus said it was totally within bounds to do good on the Sabbath(Matt. 12:12). It is especially true when it came to healing because it set ppl free from Satan's grip, and the Sabbath symbolizes the same thing on a greater scale because it symbolizes the age where the entire world will be set free from Satan's grip.

The weekly Sabbath points back to creation and forward towards the Millennial world and beyond, which is why Paul explicitly used the words "are a shadow of things to come" in Col. 2:16-17 instead of "was a shadow of things to come". Paul was making the point that the Sabbaths symbolized things that haven't happened yet, but anti-Sabbatarians always read it as Paul saying "was a shadow of things to come" and reach the conclusion that it supposedly pointed towards Christ.

The Sabbath has been a millennia old representation of what life will be like after Christ returns, which is why God takes it extremely personally when people reject it. They're essentially telling Him that they prefer life in Satan's world over life in the world He is going to establish through Christ and the immortalized saints.

 

[JunChosen]

SDA's and confessing Christians alike don't really have the knowledge and understanding as to the meaning of the Sabbath! Why the man who picked up sticks, in Numbers 15, was told to Moses by God be stoned? What was so significance about picking up sticks that the punishment was so severe?

In the Old testament, it was forbidden to do any kinds of work because God rested on the seventh day and made it holy, that Jesus Himself, rested in the tomb on the seventh day during the crucifixion week.

The 64 thousand dollar question: :What is so significance about resting on the Sabbath or Sunday, in the New Testament?"

Please no opinions or assumptions and please accompany comments with Scripture references.

Thank you.

To God Be The Glory

 

[ReChoired]

SDA's and confessing Christians alike don't really have the knowledge and understanding as to the meaning of the Sabbath! Why the man who picked up sticks, in Numbers 15, was told to Moses by God be stoned? What was so significance about picking up sticks that the punishment was so severe?

In the Old testament, it was forbidden to do any kinds of work because God rested on the seventh day and made it holy, that Jesus Himself, rested in the tomb on the seventh day during the crucifixion week.

The 64 thousand dollar question: :What is so significance about resting on the Sabbath or Sunday, in the New Testament?"

Please no opinions or assumptions and please accompany comments with Scripture references.

Thank you.

To God Be The Glory

I don't understand? Reeeeeeealy?

Sticks & Stones - Do You Stone The Sabbath Breaker : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Sticks & Stones - Do You Stone The Sabbath Breaker - October 19, 2019 - brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Sticks & Stones - Do You Stone The Sabbath Breaker - brother Aaron Earnest

All the scriptures you'll need are in it. Don't want to look?, then you didn't want an answer.

 

[JunChosen]

I don't understand? Reeeeeeealy?

Sticks & Stones - Do You Stone The Sabbath Breaker - brother Aaron Earnest

All the scriptures you'll need are in it. Don't want to look?, then you didn't want an answer.

Reeeeeeealy and truuuuuuuly!

No! I'm not the one to stone the Sabbath breaker but God Himself will.

Your brother Aaron may quote all the Scripture passages he wants and he will still NOT get any closer to truth concerning the Seventh Day Sabbath even as you people try hard to defend your faith. Of all people you should be well grounded in your faith as you people are well versed, but alas, it is not so.

Please don't get me wrong. Years ago a SDA pastor tried to recruit me and that's when I found how well versed SDAs were but I also found many loop holes in their theology. After a few weeks of trying to convince me with Scripture he finally gave up and told me and confessed that he always had a hard time recruiting born again Christians.

I say this without malice that for your denomination to understand the Seventh Day Sabbath, you must first understand:
1) What was the purpose why God rested after creating the universe?
2) Why did God bless His work of creation?
3) What is the significance why the man who picked up sticks was severely punished as to be stoned to death?
4) Does this stoning to death have anything to do with us today as it did back then in the Old Testament?
5) If it does, in what manner?

To answer the above questions, we must remember that God spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak to them!!!

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. Consider the following Scripture passages in 1 Corinthians 2:11-14.

To God Be The Glory

 

[ReChoired]

"... born again Christians. ..."

Oh, is that what you think you are? What scripture do you have to support your claim, that while you knowingly reject the 4th commandment in it's plain spiritual words (Exodus 20:8-11 KJB) that you are somehow "born again" at the same time?

1 John 2:29 KJB - If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness [Psalms 119:172 KJB] is born of him.

1 John 3:9 KJB - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 KJB - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

There are some that claim to be "born again", but the Bible identifies them:

Psalms 58:3 KJB - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

1 John 2:4 KJB - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Born again. It's simple really.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Greeting all.

I noticed there has been some talk lately about Sabbath-keeping, and while I don't oppose the practice, neither do I hold it as necessary in the life of the believer today as some do on this forum. But I've noticed some cite verses like Hebrews 4:4 as evidence that we God still requires us to keep the 7th Day observance, and I thought this errant interpretation of Hebrews Chapters 3 and 4 should be addressed and cleared up.

The following will be a fuller treatment of these two Chapters in particular, to demonstrate that the references to "the 7th Day" were actually talking about the millennium, when the kingdom of God will finally be established on the earth for a thousand years, and God will finally cease from His work of bringing forth a harvest in the earth. I hope all who take the time to read through this will come away with a better understanding of what the writer was teaching in context, even if at first they may not be in agreement with the interpretation I present.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Jesus here, as our Spiritual High Priest, was being compared to the High Priest over Israel during their time in the wilderness, and this is the key to understanding the entire two Chapters. The writer runs a continuous parallel between the New Testament saints sojourning towards the promise land of Heaven (and eventually the establishment of the kingdom of God on earth during the millennium) and the Israelites sojourning through the wilderness to the promised land on earth.

This was a MAJOR prophetic parallel that was constantly being made reference to by the New Testament writers. For instance, Paul also compared the Corinthians to the Israelites journeying through the wilderness in 1st Corinthians 10, where he stated the following:

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness. 6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

This is the same teaching the writer of Hebrews will give in Hebrews 3 and 4, only there he will focus more on the end result of the sojourn: Attaining to our spiritual promised land of Heaven. But the warnings were there again: The Israelites hardened their hearts against God because they did not trust Him in their circumstances, and the New Testament saints were having to face the same sorts of things; they were having to trust God during hardships, because the journey was being filled with persecution, opposition, afflictions and deprivations. And hardships in the wilderness are what caused some of the Israelites to turn against God in what was called "the provocation," when many claimed that they were better off in Egypt than to be suffering lack and wandering about in danger in the desert. This event is what the writer now refers to as we return to Hebrews 3:

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the provocation, in the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.’ 11 So I swore in My wrath they shall not enter My rest.’”

From this passage on, it is clear that the "rest" the writer was talking about was Entering the promised land, not Sabbath-keeping. God swore in His anger that the Israelites would not enter the promise land, and they did not. So, too, was the writer giving a warning that believers in the Lord Jesus Christ would likewise not enter the promised land of Heaven if they should harden their hearts in the midst of the trials they were suffering.

Returning again to the text, he will now address was initially caused their downfall: Not continuing to trust God in faith, which in turn led to departing from Him into sin:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the provocation.” 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, not all who came out of Egypt led by Moses. 17 But with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

We see that they could not enter into what after forty years? Sabbath-keeping? No. They were keeping the Sabbath. The "rest" He was clearly talking about "entering into" here was the promised land, and by contrast, the promised land of Heaven (and by extension the millennial kingdom) was the "rest" Christians needed to be striving to enter into. But those in the wilderness stopped trusting Him in the hardships, and because they stopped trusting in Him, they soon began entering into sins of various kinds. So the teaching was not to "fall by the same example of unbelief," for New Testament believers were going through hardships as well, and if they began to doubt God, they too would eventually begin giving themselves to sin and rebellion, and eventually lose their salvation as a result.

Chapter 4 follows in the next post.

I think it was an extreme kindness on God's part to release His people under the new covenant of sabbath observance sir. But let me ask you, because I feel this way. If a person teaches others that God's law for us is to observe the sabbath, do you believe that one should have to accept the penalty of disobedience of it if they choose to violate it? That was a very serious sin, which the penalty was death. A shocking example is found at: (Numbers 15:32-36) . . .While the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man collecting pieces of wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him collecting wood brought him up to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. 34 They committed him into custody because it had not been specified what should be done to him. 35 And Jehovah said to Moses: “The man should be put to death without fail, and the whole assembly should stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the whole assembly brought him outside the camp and stoned him so that he died, just as Jehovah had commanded Moses.

If everlasting life is based on observing the sabbath, who could gain it? Everyone I know has violated it, and one guy that is conversing with me on it, openly admits he violates it, but thinks he will be forgiven. God is very forgiving for sure, but the Bible clearly states:
(Hebrews 10:26) 26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

 

[JunChosen]

Oh, is that what you think you are? What scripture do you have to support your claim, that while you knowingly reject the 4th commandment in it's plain spiritual words (Exodus 20:8-11 KJB) that you are somehow "born again" at the same time?

Just this: Ephesians 1:3-5 which reads:
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, THAT we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Romans 3:8
"But God commandeth his love toward us, in that, WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS CHRIST DIED FOR US."

There are some that claim to be "born again", but the Bible identifies them:

That's true there are some elect/chosen by God in eternity past before the foundation of the world: However, the Scripture passages you've laid out above are principles that are found throughout the Gospel. Soooooo sad you and the SDAs cannot comprehend the deep spiritual meaning of Scripture you interpret as literal. You may quote them but alas you fall back again to 1 Corinthians 2:14. Go figure.

Born again. It's simple really.

Now that's something we can agree upon!!!. Only the "born again Christian" who are born from above KNOW they are. It's sad you can't "see" that. Mark 4:11-12.

I've asked you five simple questions but you've elected not to give an answer [1 Peter 3:15]. Are all SDAs great dancers that you dance around questions?

Well, I know were I stand with the God of the Bible that I serve, but there are some who CREATE their own god.

Yes, I adhere to the commandments set forth by God in His Holy Writ, which mostly can only be understood spiritually [Mark 4:34].

To God Be The Glory

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, erroneous material. I will share their response/s when it/they comes, and any dialogue that ensues in my response/s. Their contradiction/s will make itself/themselves known.

SDA’s wrote the book on erroneous and have institutionalized deception.

 

[JunChosen]

SDA’s wrote the book on erroneous and have institutionalized deception.

Yes, but we ought to pray for them because they were led by a woman!

When we study the Bible, we find that:
1) All the kings and judges were men [perhaps there was a woman judge but the name escapes me at the moment].
2) All the prophets were men except Deborah who was a prophetess.
3} All the priests are men.
4) All the apostles were men.

 

[ReChoired]

2) All the prophets were men except Deborah who was a prophetess.

There's so much wrong with that statement.

[1] Deborah was a prophetess [Judges 4:4].

[2] Miriam was a prophetess [Exodus 15:20].

[3] Huldah was a prophetess [2 Kings 22:14; 2 Chronicles 34:22]

[4] Isaiah's Wife, a prophetess [Isaiah 8:3]

[5] Anna in the Temple, the daughter of Phanuel is a prophetess [Luke 2:36].

[6] The 4 Daughters of Philip the Evangelist [Acts 21:9] were prophetesses.

 

[ReChoired]

1) All the kings and judges were men [perhaps there was a woman judge but the name escapes me at the moment].

That would be Deborah [Judges 4:4].

 

[ReChoired]

3} All the priests are men.
4) All the apostles were men.

Yep. Non sequitur. Differing office and differing gifts. Prophets(ess) are differing office and gift than both priest and apostle. No one is claiming that sister White was a "priest" or an "apostle". Her claim was that she was a "messenger of the LORD".