Justification By Works

[Curtis]

I know you started out as saying they are different but then you null & void that believing God as what made Abraham righteous until Abraham was justified by works per Isaac, but that justification by works was about what he had said to Isaac about God providing and that is what James was referring to as the moral of the story so to speak by how Abraham named the place as Jehovah-jireh which means God provides for His servants.

That’s not all that said, James said Abraham was justified when he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him. It doesn’t say anything about Abraham was justified by his words, by his works. I know James is very inconvenient to your theology, but what is, IS, whether you like it or not.

And if you would read the passages carefully, you would see that it says his works modified his faith and perfected his faith - so works affect your faith.

 

[robert derrick]

Not sure how you can be agreeing with that part, then.



There is no versus but understanding applying faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works because God did the saving by believing in Him and understanding that James was rebuking the church for applying faith in God to provide in sharing to the departing poor to get out of helping the poor rather than lead by example in their faith in God's Providence.



Since our believing in Him is the work of the Father as He is the One that draws us unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) to reveal His Son to us so we can believe ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) because He knows who is seeking Him from those that prefer their evil deeds rather than not to believe ( John 3:18-21 ) Like it or not, the Father gives us to the Son to be saved by Him ( John 6:37-40 ) so our doing it by believing in Him is the work of God where no man can boast, but be thankful.

And there are plenty of scriptures that reminds us that we are not saved by any work we have done.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

But understanding applying faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works because God did the saving by believing in Him and understanding that James was rebuking the church for applying faith in God to provide

By Jove I think I've got it!

I see here the first principle by which you preach faith that saves alone and faith that blesses with works:

You make difference between God applying His faith to do His work of cleansing and saving our souls, and the saved believers applying His faith to bless others.

I wasn't quite sure what you meant by 'applying' the faith of God.

Whensoever we begin to believe from the heart the gospel of salvation by the faith of Jesus, God immediately begins to do His good work in us to save our souls. And once being saved by faith alone without any works for us to do, we then begin to do the works we are commanded to do, which are works of His righteousness by His faith in us.

I thought I would be going on to objections, but with this new insight to what you are teaching, if correct, I need some more clarification from you to make sure I've really got it by Jove, or by Jesus. :) And so, would you disagree with any of these statements:

1. God doing His work to save our souls with imputed righteousness, including His justification, is therefore by faith alone: our believing in Him only.

2. God is justified in imputing righteousness with His justification to the believer, whensoever any soul believes in Him: to 'apply' His justified work of salvation to the believing soul.

3. God does not need to justify Himself in saving any soul by faith alone.

4. God will always be justified in saving any soul that has faith, and having works of faith is not needed for justification with God pertaining to being saved.

5. Having faith to be saved by, needs no works to be justified by, but having faith to bless others by, needs works to be justified by.

6. Paul is only speaking of having faith to be saved by, and James only speaks of having faith with works to be blessed by God's providence.

7. Paul is not speaking of having faith to be blessed by with works, and James is not speaking of having faith to be saved by without works.

Therefore, in Scripture of Romans, God only speaks of having faith alone to be saved by, and is not speaking of having faith with works to be blessed by Him in this life, and in Scripture of James, God is only speaking of having faith with works to be blessed by, and not of having faith to be saved by, which has no works by us.

What do you think? Do I pass the test? Do I get an A on the exam? Be honest. I don't believe in 'participation ' medals.

 

[Christ4Me]

That’s not all that said, James said Abraham was justified when he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him. It doesn’t say anything about Abraham was justified by his words, by his works. I know James is very inconvenient to your theology, but what is, IS, whether you like it or not.

It is not an inconvenience to me, because I can see the truth in His words.

Explain how Jesus can still abide in former believers per 2 Timothy 2:13 after denying them for denying Him in 2 Timothy 2:12?

Explain how the vessels unto dishonor in His House, the vessels of wood and earth, are the ones that did not depart from iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) for why they were denied by Him per Titus 1:16?

Why have those kinds of vessels still in His House? To testify to the power of God in salvation for all who believe in Him, even in His name. John 1:12-13

Did not Paul testify to the power of God in salvation for all those who believe the preaching of the cross without water baptism being involved in that process? 1 Corinthians 1:17-21.

The inconvenience truth for you guys is that there is a rest for the people of God in Christ Jesus regarding our salvation ( Hebrews 4:1-3 & Hebrews 4:9-11 ) as we have no part in finishing His work in us ( Philippians 1:6 & 2 Timothy 4:18) .

And if you would read the passages carefully, you would see that it says his works modified his faith and perfected his faith - so works affect your faith.

What is the name of the place that Abraham offered Isaac on the altar? What does that name means? That is the faith in God that James is specifically referring to because the church was disrespecting the poor by voicing the faith in God's Providence to the poor to get out of helping the poor. The church was not voicing their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation to the poor, but applying faith in God to provide to the poor without really believing in His Providence to the poor to lead by example in the eyes of the poor.

That OP starts out addressing Paul's words and James's words and arrived at the conclusion of nulling and voiding Paul's words when James was not talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which was without works but Paul was.

When you put salvation with works on us to do, then there is no salvation obtained yet because then you can never be assured you did enough, thus faith is made void and the cross of Christ has come to no effect. The Holy Spirit is in you by faith in Jesus Christ testifying that you are saved.

There is only going on to perfection in running that race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily to abide in Him as His disciples to bear fruit and that our joy may be full. Hebrews 12:1-2 Or else the consequence for not abiding in him is to be excommunicated from the Marriage Super in Heaven by being left behind into the bed of the great tribulation. John 15:1-8 & Revelation 2:18-25

 

[Christ4Me]

But understanding applying faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works because God did the saving by believing in Him and understanding that James was rebuking the church for applying faith in God to provide

By Jove I think I've got it!

I see here the first principle by which you preach faith that saves alone and faith that blesses with works:

Faith in Jesus Christ that saves alone and blessing others of the faith in God to provide for them requires leading by example to whomsoever you are blessing others with.

You make difference between God applying His faith to do His work of cleansing and saving our souls, and the saved believers applying His faith to bless others.

God enabling us to believe in Him to do His work of cleansing and saving our souls, and the saved believers applying faith in His Providence to bless others as we are to lead by example.

I wasn't quite sure what you meant by 'applying' the faith of God.

I am not sure where you got that either. Faith in God, but faith of God?

Whensoever we begin to believe from the heart the gospel of salvation by the faith of Jesus, God immediately begins to do His good work in us to save our souls. And once being saved by faith alone without any works for us to do, we then begin to do the works we are commanded to do, which are works of His righteousness by His faith in us.

That is not when God begins His work. The Father knows who seeks Him from those that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to Him to believe in Him to be saved.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Our believing in Him is a work of God the Father.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There is no free will of man when sin has dominion over our lives. This is why the Father has to drag us to the Son to reveal His Son to us to see & believe in the Son to be saved.

 

[robert derrick]

Faith in Jesus Christ that saves alone and blessing others of the faith in God to provide for them requires leading by example to whomsoever you are blessing others with.



God enabling us to believe in Him to do His work of cleansing and saving our souls, and the saved believers applying faith in His Providence to bless others as we are to lead by example.



I am not sure where you got that either. Faith in God, but faith of God?



That is not when God begins His work. The Father knows who seeks Him from those that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to Him to believe in Him to be saved.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Our believing in Him is a work of God the Father.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There is no free will of man when sin has dominion over our lives. This is why the Father has to drag us to the Son to reveal His Son to us to see & believe in the Son to be saved.

Are you finished? Will you be responding to the rest of it? I understand your points so far.

 

[Christ4Me]

I thought I would be going on to objections, but with this new insight to what you are teaching, if correct, I need some more clarification from you to make sure I've really got it by Jove, or by Jesus. :) And so, would you disagree with any of these statements:

I cannot teach you. I am hoping He will through the Holy Spirit in you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1. God doing His work to save our souls with imputed righteousness, including His justification, is therefore by faith alone: our believing in Him only.

Confused by "Including His justification" but if you are meaning He justifies us by our believing in Him without works then yes.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

2. God is justified in imputing righteousness with His justification to the believer, whensoever any soul believes in Him: to 'apply' His justified work of salvation to the believing soul.

Okay. Yeah.

3. God does not need to justify Himself in saving any soul by faith alone.

No, He does not need to justify Himself.

4. God will always be justified in saving any soul that has faith, and having works of faith is not needed for justification with God pertaining to being saved.

4. Our believing in Him is the work of God the Father for He foreknew who wants to be delivered from their sins from those that prefer their sins.

5. Having faith to be saved by, needs no works to be justified by, but having faith to bless others by, needs works to be justified by.

5. Having faith to be saved by, needs no works to be justified by, but having faith to bless others in God's providence by, needs works to be justified by for saying that to others as in leading by example to avoid being a hypocrite by being a hearer of the word and not a doer.

6. Paul is only speaking of having faith to be saved by, and James only speaks of having faith with works to be blessed by God's providence.

6. Paul is only speaking of having faith in Jesus Christ to be saved by, and James only speaks of having faith with works as leading by example when blessing others about God's providence for them.

7. Paul is not speaking of having faith to be blessed by with works, and James is not speaking of having faith to be saved by without works.

7. Paul is not speaking of having faith in Jesus Christ for salvation to be blessed by with works, and James is not speaking of having faith in God's Providence to be saved by without works.

Therefore, in Scripture of Romans, God only speaks of having faith alone to be saved by, and is not speaking of having faith with works to be blessed by Him in this life,

There are scripture about salvation without works but there are scripture about discipleship in how to follow Him in Romans. It should not be confused together.

There are condemnation to those who do walk after the flesh just as there is no condemnation to those that do not walk after the flesh. Believers kind of missed both message in Romans 8:1, but although at risk, the prodigal son may have given up his inheritance for wild living, but he is still son, although like Esau, he can never get that back and forever damned as a vessel unto dishonor but still in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) as vessels of wood & earth testifying to the power of God in salvation for all who believe in Him, even in His name. John 1:12-13

and in Scripture of James, God is only speaking of having faith with works to be blessed by, and not of having faith to be saved by, which has no works by us.

And in Scripture of James, God is only speaking of having faith in God's Providence with works to bless others by, and not about having faith in Jesus Christ to be saved by, which has no works by us.

What do you think? Do I pass the test? Do I get an A on the exam? Be honest. I don't believe in 'participation ' medals.

It seems we are saying the same thing albeit, some clarification was needed just for you to make sure you understood me, even though we are to rely on the Lord to cause the increase as He is the One ministers to the both of us.

I hope in Him that He ministering to the both of us.

 

[Christ4Me]

Are you finished? Will you be responding to the rest of it? I understand your points so far.

I give the Lord thanks for that.

And no, I was not finished yet, because I wanted to avoid a long post.

 

[Behold]

Christ's doctrine of justification is neither by faith only nor by works only:

Therefore, the real task is to reconcile the apparent contradiction of Scripture written by Paul and James.

Salvation is Christ on the Cross.
Jesus , Himself... is Salvation.... and there is no other. And to have His Salvation, given to you as "the gift of Salvation", = "you must be born again", as this is the only proof that you are saved and going to heaven.

Is that a work you can do? If it is, then get busy bleeding on a cross after you have lived a sinless life.

Can't do it?
Then get busy giving faith to CHRIST, who did it for you so that God can justify you, through your faith, based on Christ who is God's Salvation.

 

[robert derrick]

I cannot teach you. I am hoping He will through the Holy Spirit in you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



Confused by "Including His justification" but if you are meaning He justifies us by our believing in Him without works then yes.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.



Okay. Yeah.



No, He does not need to justify Himself.



4. Our believing in Him is the work of God the Father for He foreknew who wants to be delivered from their sins from those that prefer their sins.



5. Having faith to be saved by, needs no works to be justified by, but having faith to bless others in God's providence by, needs works to be justified by for saying that to others as in leading by example to avoid being a hypocrite by being a hearer of the word and not a doer.



6. Paul is only speaking of having faith in Jesus Christ to be saved by, and James only speaks of having faith with works as leading by example when blessing others about God's providence for them.



7. Paul is not speaking of having faith in Jesus Christ for salvation to be blessed by with works, and James is not speaking of having faith in God's Providence to be saved by without works.



There are scripture about salvation without works but there are scripture about discipleship in how to follow Him in Romans. It should not be confused together.

There are condemnation to those who do walk after the flesh just as there is no condemnation to those that do not walk after the flesh. Believers kind of missed both message in Romans 8:1, but although at risk, the prodigal son may have given up his inheritance for wild living, but he is still son, although like Esau, he can never get that back and forever damned as a vessel unto dishonor but still in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) as vessels of wood & earth testifying to the power of God in salvation for all who believe in Him, even in His name. John 1:12-13



And in Scripture of James, God is only speaking of having faith in God's Providence with works to bless others by, and not about having faith in Jesus Christ to be saved by, which has no works by us.



It seems we are saying the same thing albeit, some clarification was needed just for you to make sure you understood me, even though we are to rely on the Lord to cause the increase as He is the One ministers to the both of us.

I hope in Him that He ministering to the both of us.

He certainly has friend. And I can only say how appreciative I am to find someone so willing to say what you believe as distinctly and consistently as possible.

As well as having patience and integrity to respond to any point in detail. I have been frustrated too often by them that only repeat what they think, and will not entertain dissension.

I am not easy to persuaded myself, and have my own hard forehead, but I am correctable, and so will at least consider what is being said and respond in kind. I don't just gloss over the tings of others, but take them seriously, until they show themselves not to be serious in kind.

So thanks again. I now understand your teaching fairly clearly and where it comes from, as you say yourself, we can say the same things in similar manner.

Once again, I am not saying I agree with what you teach, but the Lord led me to repent of early confrontation and hear you out, and I'm glad I have.

So, when I have the time later today or tomorrow, I will offer my objections with Scripture.

God bless you.

 

[Christ4Me]

He certainly has friend. And I can only say how appreciative I am to find someone so willing to say what you believe as distinctly and consistently as possible.

As well as having patience and integrity to respond to any point in detail. I have been frustrated too often by them that only repeat what they think, and will not entertain dissension.

I am not easy to persuaded myself, and have my own hard forehead, but I am correctable, and so will at least consider what is being said and respond in kind. I don't just gloss over the tings of others, but take them seriously, until they show themselves not to be serious in kind.

So thanks again. I now understand your teaching fairly clearly and where it comes from, as you say yourself, we can say the same things in similar manner.

Once again, I am not saying I agree with what you teach, but the Lord led me to repent of early confrontation and hear you out, and I'm glad I have.

So, when I have the time later today or tomorrow, I will offer my objections with Scripture.

I can only hope He will continue to have me here to share any talents He has given me for why you think there are objections. I know believers confused running that race as if for salvation when it is about abiding in Him to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor in His House.

God bless you.[/QUOTE]

May God bless you & keep you. May He shine His face upon you and give you His peace.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

 

[robert derrick]

I can only hope He will continue to have me here to share any talents He has given me for why you think there are objections. I know believers confused running that race as if for salvation when it is about abiding in Him to be received by the Bridegroom as that vessel unto honor in His House.

God bless you.

May God bless you & keep you. May He shine His face upon you and give you His peace.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.[/QUOTE]
Thank you, and God bless you to.

So, the proposed teaching to avoid dead faith alone being applied to salvation, is that there is another faith, separate from the faith that saves, and applies only to blessing others by faith, needing works to be justified:

1. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism...Not two.

Teaching another faith than that which saves, is preaching another gospel by another faith, separating the gospel of salvation from another gospel of blessing others.

There is one faith of Jesus, which is the preached faith for the common salvation of Christ:

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

No Scripture anywhere speaks of 2 separate and differing faiths of Jesus, but only The One faith of Jesus our Lord and Savior, which is the whole context of James 2 from beginning to end: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2. My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

The faith being spoken of is indeed the only faith that saves any man: the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is the only one faith preached by the gospel of the cross and taught in the doctrine of Christ.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The gift of God that saves is the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the faith of Jesus, not the faith alone of man.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

It is the faith through which we are saved by grace. And what is not of ourselves is that faith, which would be man's own faith, being alone and dead without God, even as the soul; of man is dead without the Spirit of God.

3. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Scripture in James confirms it is the faith that saves is the subject at hand. Nowhere does Scripture even suggest there is some faith for provision alone separate from that of our Lord Jesus Christ that saves and provides all things from the Father in the name of Jesus.

The argument in James 1 was not to be double minded in the faith with temptation to sin, and in James 2 is to not be dead in the faith without works of God's righteousness.

The faith of our Lord being spoken of is indeed the faith that saves, verses faith alone that cannot save any man.

Believing God and salvation by faith is the subject of Scripture in James, not another faith of another gospel for provision of God only.

Paul is not speaking of having faith to be blessed by with works, and James is not speaking of having faith to be saved by without works.

This is a direct contradiction of James 2:14, where God says a man having faith and not having works cannot save him.

A man being saved by having faith alone and not having works, opposes a man having faith and having not works cannot save him.

The proposed teaching of two separate faiths is solely made up for the purpose of trying to keep the false doctrine that a man's faith alone can save him.

4. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Abraham was not declared justified by God, when Abraham 'believed in God's provision', but specifically when he did the work of offering up Isaac.

Abraham believed in God's provision with the same imputed righteousness of believing in God's promised child, but was not justified with God and called the Friend of God in Scripture, until he did the work of faith and offered up Isaac on the altar to God.

5. The context and subject of the James 2 is not about providing for the poor, but is all about not having the one faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of persons: judging the brethren by appearance and substance in this life.

James 1 begins with rebuking double mindedness in the faith, and James 2 continues with being a respecter of persons in the faith.

Providing for the poor is only one example given of judging by appearance in the faith, and the other listed first example is seating arrangements in the church assembly, which has nothing to do with provision of substance for the poor, and everything to do with respect of persons in the faith of our Lord during assembly.

The rebuke of words only for the poor brethren continues as another example of respect of persons, which is contrary to Jesus' admonition to not do good only for them we love, or only for them we can expect a like return from. Them with words only for the poor would stumble over themselves to do any favor asked by the man with the gold ring:

And their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

James 1 also foreshadows the condemnation of any faith that is alone and without works, by equally condemning them that are hearers only and not doers of the Word: faith only without works, is only for hearers only, which is dead, being alone without doing the works of faith.

The subject of having the faith of our Lord Jesus that saves our souls, with respect of persons and judgment of the brethren by appearance is concluded in James 4, where God rebukes Christians judging one another based upon their own righteousness of personal rules and law:

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

The subject in James 2 is judging the brethren in the faith of our Lord according to appearance and substance of this life, and James 4 is judging the brethren in the faith according to one's own righteousness, and not judging righteous judgment according to the law of Christ.

Faith alone of any sort is dead, even as the body of any sort is dead, having not the Spirit, because the Spirit is He who gives the faith of Jesus, and is the sanctifier and justifier of them that walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

Them that try to separate unto themselves another faith of their own alone, from the one and only true faith of Jesus that saves and is justified of works, are thus also separating themselves from the just that live by faith and are doers of the word, and not hearers only:

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

 

[Christ4Me]

Thank you, and God bless you to.

Thanks.

So, the proposed teaching to avoid dead faith alone being applied to salvation, is that there is another faith, separate from the faith that saves, and applies only to blessing others by faith, needing works to be justified:

1. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism...Not two.

Ephesians 4:4-6 refers to the one hope pf our calling, the gospel where, by believing in Him we are saved.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Now you know discernment is needed because some believers apply that one baptism to mean water baptism rather than the baptism with the holy Ghost when one is born again of the Spirit per the one hope of our calling.

Even though there is water baptism and baptism with the holy Ghost, how do you resolve that conflict there if you insist there is only one faith when it also says one baptism?

Since scripture both testify to water baptism and baptism with the holy Ghost, so does scripture testify to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works and blessing others by professing that faith in God to provide but not leading by example to that other for why works is required.

So there is no confliction of the 2 kinds of faith in scripture of the N.T.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

HaHa, heresy he said, numerous times at that. You just cant bring yourself to admit calvinism is Biblical, i suspect, because for you to admit it is goes against every false belief you’ve fallen for. Your pride wont allow for that. But im bringing in the power now, its time for another wise teacher by the name of paul washer.

the doctrine of OSAS:
“The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is not a license for sin or a means of giving false assurance of salvation to the carnal and ungodly. Yes, the doctrine affirms that God keeps those He saves, but it also affirms that He transforms those He keeps. The genuine believer has assurance of salvation not only because of a past profession of faith but also because of the ongoing work of God in His life that continues to transform him into the image of Christ. The person who professes faith in Christ and yet bears no evidence of faith, a divine work of regeneration, or the continuing work of divine providence can have little assurance of eternal life. This is not because he has lost a salvation he once possessed but because he is demonstrating that he never possessed the salvation he claims.”

and now for John MacArthur:
“True believers will persevere in faith to the end. Often that doctrine is called the “doctrine of eternal security.” Sometimes it’s sort of cryptically said, “Once saved, always saved.” And, of course, all of those things are true.
I want you to understand that this is a historic doctrine. I pointed out last time that it’s the most important component of salvation, because if salvation were not permanent, then the doctrine of election would be called into question; the doctrine of justification would be called into question; the doctrine of sanctification would be called into question; and the doctrine of glorification would be called into question; the calling of God would be called into question; and therefore, the work of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit would all be called into question as well.”

both of these men are baptist/calvinist teachers, wise beyond their years.

John Macarthur is the guy you want to cite? Lol this guy told his congregation with a straight face that a person can receive the mark of the beast and still receive salvation. I doubt any of his congregants even bothered to fact check him. Most of his fans don't even bother to fact check him.

There is no contradiction when you realize that James wasn't talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works but the faith in God's Providence for why those who profess it to others, especially to the poor, should lead by examples.

This is a bogus argument, and you know it's bogus. James was clearly talking about the kind of faith that saves because the overall context of the entire chapter is about believing in God enough to live by His commandments. Saving faith cannot and does not exist apart from obeying God because a person's actions or lack thereof shows whether or not they truly believe Him.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You might want to study Paul and James more.

Paul emphasizes in all his epistles that we are not justified by works of righteousness of the law of Moses, while James emphasizes we are justified by different type of works than are found in the law of Moses.

Abraham believed starting from the promise, and through all the delays in having a son with his wife Sarah, but he was not justified until he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him - see verse 21 above.

He believed for many years before being justified.

This is incredibly untrue, especially because it is built on the false premise that Paul was anti-Law, which he clearly wasn't. Paul was saying that the Law doesn't have the power to grant forgiveness because it was never designed to do that. What He definitely didn't say was that the Law was no longer the source of moral authority and instruction in righteousness. He and James were not talking about 2 different kinds of faith, seeing as though his words in Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 3:31, and Rom. 2:13 are completely in sync with Jas. 2.

 

[Curtis]

John Macarthur is the guy you want to cite? Lol this guy told his congregation with a straight face that a person can receive the mark of the beast and still receive salvation. I doubt any of his congregants even bothered to fact check him. Most of his fans don't even bother to fact check him.
This is a bogus argument, and you know it's bogus. James was clearly talking about the kind of faith that saves because the overall context of the entire chapter is about believing in God enough to live by His commandments. Saving faith cannot and does not exist apart from obeying God because a person's actions or lack thereof shows whether or not they truly believe Him.
This is incredibly untrue, especially because it is built on the false premise that Paul was anti-Law, which he clearly wasn't. Paul was saying that the Law doesn't have the power to grant forgiveness because it was never designed to do that. What He definitely didn't say was that the Law was no longer the source of moral authority and instruction in righteousness. He and James were not talking about 2 different kinds of faith, seeing as though his words in Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 3:31, and Rom. 2:13 are completely in sync with Jas. 2.

Abraham lived 430 years before the law was given to Moses, in case you don’t know it..
Christians are not under the law of Moses whatsoever. We have died to the law.
The law is only in effect for the unconverted who don’t have Gods spirit within them.
Paul is crystal clear we are saved apart from the works for righteousness of the law of Moses.
Paul states he’s under the law of Christ and not the law of Moses.
Paul says in Galatians 4:21-31 that the covenant given on mount Olive is slavery and bondage, and the law of Moses and the Decalogue is part of the covenant.
If you’re under the law, Christ is of no effect unto you, you’ve fallen from grace, warns Paul.
Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3, that the ten commands given to Moses are the ministry of death and condemnation, and is the letter that kills, which has ended, replaced by the law of the spirit that brings life.
Acts 15 the apostles met to deal with the Jewish believers who taught that Christians must still be circumcised and keep the law of Moses - Peter called the law of Moses a yoke of burden.

 

[robert derrick]

Thanks.



Ephesians 4:4-6 refers to the one hope pf our calling, the gospel where, by believing in Him we are saved.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Now you know discernment is needed because some believers apply that one baptism to mean water baptism rather than the baptism with the holy Ghost when one is born again of the Spirit per the one hope of our calling.

Even though there is water baptism and baptism with the holy Ghost, how do you resolve that conflict there if you insist there is only one faith when it also says one baptism?

Since scripture both testify to water baptism and baptism with the holy Ghost, so does scripture testify to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works and blessing others by professing that faith in God to provide but not leading by example to that other for why works is required.

So there is no confliction of the 2 kinds of faith in scripture of the N.T.

So then likewise by the Spirit we discern there are two Lords.

I thought you might use the fact of baptisms in Heb 5 as a springboard for 'faiths'; however you are taking Ephesians out of context, which is speaking of the one Lord, one faith, and one baptism that saves: baptism of the Spirit, which is the circumcision of Christ in the heart, and is not the baptism in water for confession of faith before witness of the church.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Your effort is not without merit, but is without proof.

The context of Ephesians 4 is the same as that of James 2: salvation and walking worthy of the Lord, which is justification by works that walk worthy of Him.

So, if you want to go to two baptisms and two faiths, then you must also go to two Lords, two faiths, and two baptisms, which of course is not what is written: one Lord, one faith, one Baptism.

Actually, if you want Scripture for 'differing faiths', then a better place would be Rom 12 that speaks of differing gifts according to the proportion of faith.

But even so, no Scripture speaks of 'kinds' of faith, nor of 'faiths', and there is only one faith that both saves and blesses: the faith of Jesus.

I trust you will be responding to the rest of my objections in due. And I look forward to it, because you are still faithfully answering them with sincerity, and not just glossing things over or ignoring them altogether.

However, I must say that Scripture inserting the fact of faith that saves concludes the matter: it is the faith that saves that is being spoken of, not a separate faith that only blesses others.

So does scripture testify to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works and blessing others by professing that faith in God to provide but not leading by example to that other for why works is required.

Not true, since that is what you are trying to teach, and there is no Scripture simply saying so.

As I said above, the subject of James 2 is certainly that of faith that saves. There is no mention of a faith that provides.

That is a contextual argument you are trying to use, which is not even the context of the Scripture, as I showed: the whole context of the Scripture is having the faith of our Lord with respect of persons, of which blessing others is only an example of it, and is only the 2nd example used.

 

[Christ4Me]

So then likewise by the Spirit we discern there are two Lords.

Right. When you take the whole of scripture, one can discern the One Lord Jesus Christ in Ephesians 4:4-6, but not negating the Father as Lord either.

Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

So the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation without works is true which pleases God and there is another faith in God's Providence when applied towards others that one should lead by example which pleases the poor & God.

 

[robert derrick]

John Macarthur is the guy you want to cite? Lol this guy told his congregation with a straight face that a person can receive the mark of the beast and still receive salvation. I doubt any of his congregants even bothered to fact check him. Most of his fans don't even bother to fact check him.
This is a bogus argument, and you know it's bogus. James was clearly talking about the kind of faith that saves because the overall context of the entire chapter is about believing in God enough to live by His commandments. Saving faith cannot and does not exist apart from obeying God because a person's actions or lack thereof shows whether or not they truly believe Him.
This is incredibly untrue, especially because it is built on the false premise that Paul was anti-Law, which he clearly wasn't. Paul was saying that the Law doesn't have the power to grant forgiveness because it was never designed to do that. What He definitely didn't say was that the Law was no longer the source of moral authority and instruction in righteousness. He and James were not talking about 2 different kinds of faith, seeing as though his words in Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 3:31, and Rom. 2:13 are completely in sync with Jas. 2.

Good summary! John Macarthur bad! You good!

I was applauding the other one for the ability to think clearly and write distinctly what he believes, though not being correct with the doctrine of Christ.

You do both and are exactly spot on!

James was clearly talking about the kind of faith that saves.

Which of course is written: Can faith save him?

While no Scripture says, Can faith bless him?

Saving faith cannot and does not exist apart from obeying God.

Neither does loving God, whom we have not seen, exist apart from loving the brethren, whom we have seen.

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

This Scripture says that outward faith is proof of inward faith: inward faith is of God that is unseen, and outward faith is of God in us that is seen.

One 'faith alone' Christian said to me she loves First John so much, because He speaks so much about the love of God. But she never read on about loving the brethren and keeping His commandments to be righteous as He is righteous.

This is incredibly untrue, especially because it is built on the false premise that Paul was anti-Law, which he clearly wasn't.

Amen! Thank you very much for stating this simple truth!

It is incredible how so many Christians refuse even to acknowledge the simple distinction between be justified by the works of His righteousness in His faith, and being unjustified by works of the law without faith.

No Scripture is anti-law of Christ! No more than Scripture is anti-Word of God, because the law of Christ is His Word:

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Christians have demonized the law of God in a way which they would never do with the Word of God: the Law is not the problem, nor is it falling from grace to do the law for eternal salvation, because if we do not the Law and Word of Christ, we will never be justified with God to obtain eternal salvation, which is only for those that obey Him in all things:

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Paul was saying that the Law doesn't have the power to grant forgiveness because it was never designed to do that.

Excellent.

What He definitely didn't say was that the Law was no longer the source of moral authority and instruction in righteousness.

Excellent twice.

He and James were not talking about 2 different kinds of faith, seeing as though his words in Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 3:31, and Rom. 2:13 are completely in sync with Jas. 2.

Excellent thrice!

I'm excited to meet you. It's not often I am left with nothing to add. As Limbaugh used to say, once he went over something, there was no more left to say.

I am putting you on follow big time, and you had better keep the perfect pearls coming!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Good summary! John Macarthur bad! You good!

I was applauding the other one for the ability to think clearly and write distinctly what he believes, though not being correct with the doctrine of Christ.

You do both and are exactly spot on!

James was clearly talking about the kind of faith that saves.

Which of course is written: Can faith save him?

While no Scripture says, Can faith bless him?

Saving faith cannot and does not exist apart from obeying God.

Neither does loving God, whom we have not seen, exist apart from loving the brethren, whom we have seen.

No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

This Scripture says that outward faith is proof of inward faith: inward faith is of God that is unseen, and outward faith is of God in us that is seen.

One 'faith alone' Christian said to me she loves First John so much, because He speaks so much about the love of God. But she never read on about loving the brethren and keeping His commandments to be righteous as He is righteous.

This is incredibly untrue, especially because it is built on the false premise that Paul was anti-Law, which he clearly wasn't.

Amen! Thank you very much for stating this simple truth!

It is incredible how so many Christians refuse even to acknowledge the simple distinction between be justified by the works of His righteousness in His faith, and being unjustified by works of the law without faith.

No Scripture is anti-law of Christ! No more than Scripture is anti-Word of God, because the law of Christ is His Word:

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Christians have demonized the law of God in a way which they would never do with the Word of God: the Law is not the problem, nor is it falling from grace to do the law for eternal salvation, because if we do not the Law and Word of Christ, we will never be justified with God to obtain eternal salvation, which is only for those that obey Him in all things:

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Paul was saying that the Law doesn't have the power to grant forgiveness because it was never designed to do that.

Excellent.

What He definitely didn't say was that the Law was no longer the source of moral authority and instruction in righteousness.

Excellent twice.

He and James were not talking about 2 different kinds of faith, seeing as though his words in Eph. 2:8-10, Rom. 3:31, and Rom. 2:13 are completely in sync with Jas. 2.

Excellent thrice!

I'm excited to meet you. It's not often I am left with nothing to add. As Limbaugh used to say, once he went over something, there was no more left to say.

I am putting you on follow big time, and you had better keep the perfect pearls coming!

let me summarize this. You arent a calvinist, so he likes you. :

 

[robert derrick]

Right. When you take the whole of scripture, one can discern the One Lord Jesus Christ in Ephesians 4:4-6, but not negating the Father as Lord either.

Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. 37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

So the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation without works is true which pleases God and there is another faith in God's Providence when applied towards others that one should lead by example which pleases the poor & God.

Good response. I was wondering if you would see it.

However, Scripture never speaks of 'two Lords', nor is the Lord Jesus separate from the Lord God and Father in matters of faith.

The problem is the 'two faiths' you speak of do not agree with one another, one being for salvation without need of works to justify, and the other being for blessing in need of works to justify.

When we speak of faith, we are speaking of the person of that faith:

For as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he...

And so the faith of Jesus is in agreement with the Person Jesus Christ. There is no faith of Jesus separate in kind and effect from the faith of God and the Father: The faith of our Lord Jesus is not a faith only effecting salvation, while there is another separate faith of the Lord and Father with different effect toward blessing others only.

Two different faiths with separate effects in opposition to one another is not the Father and the Son being One:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

God the Father and the Son have one and the same faith effectual towards saving the soul and blessing the souls of others.

That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Scripture never speaks of faith that is effectual to salvation as opposed to faith that is only effectual to blessing others. If there were such Scripture, then you would indeed be teaching a true doctrine of Christ.

Nevertheless, even if there were such Scripture, the Scripture in James 2 would still make it clear that the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ is that faith effectual toward salvation, and is that same effectual faith that is not alone and unjustified by works, that no man is saved by.

It is clear that the faith of our Lord Jesus in James 2 is indeed the faith spoken of in James 2 with effect to be saved by.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Do you deny that the faith to be saved by is written plainly in James 2? As well as in the context of having or not having works to justify it?

Until you address this clear point of Scripture in James 2, your teaching has no standing in the doctrine of Christ, pertaining to the faith that saves in James 2 and commands works to justify for it's effect of salvation.

I see you are taking your time therefore in trying to formulate a response. Please do so. I don't want to rush you.

So the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation without works is not the faith of Jesus, having not works and is dead being alone and thus has no effect to save any man by.

As I said, you do have a fine mind for Scripture, and acute ability to thread a unique interpretation through several Scriptures; however, you are not being disciplined in rightly dividing the word of truth, which begins with rightly dividing between what is written and what is not.

We should never write things for doctrine of Christ that is not written, especially when it is openly contrary to what is written.

That is what you did, when you agreed with my statement, that James does not even speak of the faith that saves, the faith we are saved by, which is plainly written as such in the midst of James 2.

There is no Scripture written saying 'two faiths', much less two faiths separated in kind and effect in the doctrine of Christ.

There is no faith written in Scripture who's effect is salvation verses a faith in Scripture who's effect is only of blessing others.

 

[Christ4Me]

This is a bogus argument, and you know it's bogus.

Do I, really?

James was clearly talking about the kind of faith that saves because the overall context of the entire chapter is about believing in God enough to live by His commandments. Saving faith cannot and does not exist apart from obeying God because a person's actions or lack thereof shows whether or not they truly believe Him.

Okay then.

When do you tell others the Good News in Christ Jesus if you are not saved yet since you say we still have to keep His commandments to be saved?

When you share your beliefs to sinners, what do they tell you? Is it "Well, let me know when you get to Heaven and then come back and tell me"?

Explain how Jesus still abides in a believer that does not believe in him any more even though He will deny them for denying Him?

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

What is that eternal glory that comes with our salvation in verse 10 above that we, that abide in truth by the grace of God & His help, are to seek for other believers? Is it to call even former believers to repentance so they too an be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House & not be denied by Him when He comes as the Bridegroom?

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

When any iniquity on that foundation is the same as denying Him verbally per Titus 1:16 for why it defiles the temple of God 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 and yet the spirit is saved per 1 Corinthians 3:15, how can the vessels unto dishonor be in His House as the ones that did not depart from iniquity, the vessels of wood & earth STILL being in that great house per 2 Timothy 2:20?

How can the least that are in that kingdom of heaven be in that kingdom of heaven still for breaking even the eats of His commandments and teaching other so in Matthew 5:19?

Do they both as vessels unto dishonor and the least testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in His name John 1;12-13 ?

I believe I have laid the basis for just cause for why I believe the way that I do, but nobody will want to be left behind when the Bridegroom comes because there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth like Esau over giving up his birthright for a meal as the same as the prodigal son giving up his first inheritance for wild living and can never get it back, even though he is still son.

Can this be what Jesus meant that He will not cast any one out completely out of the kingdom of heaven but they can be cast out as in excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper in that kingdom of Heaven? can this be how He will lose none of all the Father has given Him for why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood 7 earth, as well as the least in that kingdom of heaven? I'd say so.

But we are still to call former believers and carnal believes to look to Jesus Christ for help to discern the lies and for departing from those iniquity.

Once the Bridegroom has come and gone, it is too late to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House.