Justification By Works

[Christ4Me]

I also would like to know if this is your learning, or from another? Because it shows a kind of ability to draw Scriptures together on the same subject with a wholly new line of reasoning, that certainly appears inspired on the surface

I had read this part but forgotten it when in reply earlier. Sorry for the delay in answering that question.

I had come across a lot of believers that had been using James rebuke towards that church's mistreatment of the poor as if that faith James was talking about was also including faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which opposes scripture elsewhere as being without works.

I thank the Lord for helping me read the chapter in context in what that church was doing to the poor, even giving out a blessings about God will provide for them but not leading by example to the poor by meeting their immediate needs from the bounty collected at church service.

It is a popular teaching among Christian circles and many do not hear me when He helps me to share the talent He has given me to share. So I think the Lord Jesus Christ that you are hearing His words to accept that correction as it does align with scripture that salvation is without works.

It shows the Lord is working in your life in your walk with Him and even though you were bearing fruit, He is pruning us still to bear more fruit.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

So you were right to see it as inspired but that was the Lord helping you to see the truth in His words. I have nothing to do with it since I have been sharing this a lot and usually, they just continue with that misunderstanding in what "faith" James was talking about.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Thank you for sharing and I am thankful towards the Lord for you.

I hope in Him to help me continue to see the truth in His words where I need correction to grow more in the knowledge of Him also since we can never stop learning in the Lord until that day when He brings us Home perfect and we shall know all things.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[robert derrick]

Correct.

That is how James & Paul can share the right hand of fellowship since there is no other gospel but one.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Galatians 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Once saved, we are to go on to perfection by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son. Hebrews 6:1 & Hebrews 12:1-2 & Colossians 2:5-10 & 1 John 1:3-9

Running that race is about discipleship so we may be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes & not be disqualified; losing our first inheritance like the prodigal son, be left behind to die, but the spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & Revelation 2:18-25

Thanks for your response, and I do want to address another unique teaching you off, which is being 'left to die', but not unto destruction of the soul.

I still want to follow your line of thinking on one faith of Jesus for salvation, and another faith of Jesus for provision of the saints.

You have confirmed in two ways that you believe in salvation by faith alone, not needing justification by works.

You also teach provision by faith that must be justified by works.

True?

If so, then how do you reconcile teaching two different and opposing faiths in the doctrine of Christ: One alone without needing works, and one not alone and needing works?

 

[Curtis]

I had come across a lot of believers that had been using James rebuke towards that church's mistreatment of the poor as if that faith James was talking about was also including faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which opposes scripture elsewhere as being without works.

There’s no contradiction, because Paul is always talking about works of the law of Moses whenever he mentions works, or works of the law, or the law, etc. it’s always the same thing: we are not under the works of the law of Moses as believers – whereas James is talking about works of The law of love a.k.a. the royal law a.k.a. the law of Christ a.k.a. the law of faith.,

Works of love include, as James states, taking care of widows and orphans, and those that are hungry And need clothed, etc.

James also says, be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

In Matthew 25 we see the perfect example of a group of people who deceived themselves, by doing nothing to help the poor, and thus have no works of love - Jesus sends them to hell as workers of iniquity because of doing nothing to help the needy.

Doing nothing to help the poor is a sin, because scripture says that to know to do good and not do it is a sin.

 

[Christ4Me]

Thanks for your response, and I do want to address another unique teaching you off, which is being 'left to die', but not unto destruction of the soul.

I still want to follow your line of thinking on one faith of Jesus for salvation, and another faith of Jesus for provision of the saints.

You have confirmed in two ways that you believe in salvation by faith alone, not needing justification by works.

You also teach provision by faith that must be justified by works.

True?

If so, then how do you reconcile teaching two different and opposing faiths in the doctrine of Christ: One alone without needing works, and one not alone and needing works?

Mayhap the issue can be solved by seeing a different application of faith in God to heal in the way cults & false teachers do.

There are cult leaders and preachers that would preach that one should not go to doctors or hospitals, but have faith in God to heal. And when members die, then they dismiss it as the fault of the believer for not having enough faith in God to heal.

But then when that cult leader or teacher gets sick or hurt, he goes to the doctor or the hospital, where is his faith in God to heal?

Even Mother Thersea has been given lots of money to help the poor, but she believes it is the lot of the poor to suffer and considers them "blessed" and none of that money was used to alleviate the suffering of the poor that were sick & dying. But when she needed medical help, she went to the hospital.

Now we go to pastors saying for the church to have faith in God to provide but he preaches fiery sermons about robbing from God's House by not tithing or giving to the church. That is a pastor that has no faith in God to provide for him by raising up cheerful givers. His eyes are on the congregation to provide by keeping up with their tithings and pledges of giving. he does not care if the members are poor and barely keeping a roof over their heads, they are to tithe to support his big fat salary, plus his IRA and expenses as a pastor while living in a house provided by the church. In the eyes of the members of the church, that pastor's faith in God to provide is dead and it will not profit the poor nor save the poor.

So it all depends on what that faith is that you are applying towards God for.

If it is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works, then by engaging in works for the purpose of obtaining salvation, is denying Him as Savior.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Let us say a Catholic believes in Him and know he is saved, but he is staying within the Catholic church to reach out to those within. The problem here is part of Catholicism is being a member of the Catholic Church & staying within her to be saved so who ever he was trying to reach will not see his faith in Jesus Christ as saved without works when they will only see him staying in the Catholic Church in case he was wrong.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So that is an example of how works for salvation cannot be true in any church of Christianity for teaching otherwise the hope is shifted from Christ alone to works they are to do, and much doubt can be given as to what those works are and how much is needed to be saved. There goes the joy of salvation and one wonders what the Good News about Jesus Christ was in the face of works being necessary for salvation.

If it is faith in God to provide, then we should lead by example rather than use it as an excuse by giving a blessing just so we do not have to help someone when it is in our power & means to do so by what God has provided for us to give.

If it is faith in God to heal, it is important to note that those who impose it on others should lead by example but no one can see that until they get sick or injured or dying. So hardly leading by example for any one to follow that kind of faith.

 

[Christ4Me]

There’s no contradiction, because Paul is always talking about works of the law of Moses whenever he mentions works, or works of the law, or the law, etc. it’s always the same thing: we are not under the works of the law of Moses as believers – whereas James is talking about works of The law of love a.k.a. the royal law a.k.a. the law of Christ a.k.a. the law of faith.,

Works of love include, as James states, taking care of widows and orphans, and those that are hungry And need clothed, etc.

James also says, be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

@robert derrick

In the case of James rebuking the church for their mistreatment of the poor from the beginning in chapter 2, we can see how they became hearers only when they bless the brethren regarding faith in God to provide for the poor, but not for the church herself in being unwilling to dispense from the bounty collected to meet the immediate needs of the poor that were about to perish from the elements and starvation. The poor sees all that the church has received by the Lord providing and yet unwilling to meet their immediate needs for why the church's faith in His Providence was dead in the eyes of the poor that it does not profit the poor nor saved the poor from the elements and starvation.

Faith in Jesus Christ without works is how we are justified and thus saved.

Blessing the poor in regards to God providing for the poor just to get out of helping the poor is not a righteous thing to do nor is it justified for using that blessing towards the brethren when unwilling to lead by example.

In Matthew 25 we see the perfect example of a group of people who deceived themselves, by doing nothing to help the poor, and thus have no works of love - Jesus sends them to hell as workers of iniquity because of doing nothing to help the needy.

Doing nothing to help the poor is a sin, because scripture says that to know to do good and not do it is a sin.

Matthew 25:31-46 is how Jesus will judge those from His millennium reign in how they treated others during that last rebellion when Satan has been released from the pit after a thousand years: the key verses being Matthew 25:31 & Matthew 25:41 & Matthew 25:46 with Revelation 20:7-15

 

[robert derrick]

There’s no contradiction, because Paul is always talking about works of the law of Moses whenever he mentions works, or works of the law, or the law, etc. it’s always the same thing: we are not under the works of the law of Moses as believers – whereas James is talking about works of The law of love a.k.a. the royal law a.k.a. the law of Christ a.k.a. the law of faith.,

Works of love include, as James states, taking care of widows and orphans, and those that are hungry And need clothed, etc.

James also says, be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

In Matthew 25 we see the perfect example of a group of people who deceived themselves, by doing nothing to help the poor, and thus have no works of love - Jesus sends them to hell as workers of iniquity because of doing nothing to help the needy.

Doing nothing to help the poor is a sin, because scripture says that to know to do good and not do it is a sin.

You make 2 Good points:
1. James also says, be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Faith alone is for hearers and talkers only.

Doing good cannot be separated from the faith that saves, no more than loving God by faith can be separated from loving our neighbors as ourselves.

And no man is saved that loves not God from the heart to do His good will:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Even as faith alone is dead without works of God's love, so love of God alone is dead, being without God's work of loving one another.

2. Paul is always talking about works of the law of Moses whenever he mentions works, or works of the law, or the law, etc. it’s always the same thing.

Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus, was the perfect instrument in the hands of the Lord to rebuke any works without faith, as being justified and pleasing to God:

For without faith, it is impossible to please God.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Paul does not demonize all works as anathema to salvation through faith, because he does not separate works of faith from being saved by faith, which James concludes plainly is dead, being alone.

Paul only rejects salvation without faith, which seeks to be justified by works without faith:

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

 

[robert derrick]

Mayhap the issue can be solved by seeing a different application of faith in God to heal in the way cults & false teachers do.

There are cult leaders and preachers that would preach that one should not go to doctors or hospitals, but have faith in God to heal. And when members die, then they dismiss it as the fault of the believer for not having enough faith in God to heal.

But then when that cult leader or teacher gets sick or hurt, he goes to the doctor or the hospital, where is his faith in God to heal?

Even Mother Thersea has been given lots of money to help the poor, but she believes it is the lot of the poor to suffer and considers them "blessed" and none of that money was used to alleviate the suffering of the poor that were sick & dying. But when she needed medical help, she went to the hospital.

Now we go to pastors saying for the church to have faith in God to provide but he preaches fiery sermons about robbing from God's House by not tithing or giving to the church. That is a pastor that has no faith in God to provide for him by raising up cheerful givers. His eyes are on the congregation to provide by keeping up with their tithings and pledges of giving. he does not care if the members are poor and barely keeping a roof over their heads, they are to tithe to support his big fat salary, plus his IRA and expenses as a pastor while living in a house provided by the church. In the eyes of the members of the church, that pastor's faith in God to provide is dead and it will not profit the poor nor save the poor.

So it all depends on what that faith is that you are applying towards God for.

If it is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works, then by engaging in works for the purpose of obtaining salvation, is denying Him as Savior.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Let us say a Catholic believes in Him and know he is saved, but he is staying within the Catholic church to reach out to those within. The problem here is part of Catholicism is being a member of the Catholic Church & staying within her to be saved so who ever he was trying to reach will not see his faith in Jesus Christ as saved without works when they will only see him staying in the Catholic Church in case he was wrong.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So that is an example of how works for salvation cannot be true in any church of Christianity for teaching otherwise the hope is shifted from Christ alone to works they are to do, and much doubt can be given as to what those works are and how much is needed to be saved. There goes the joy of salvation and one wonders what the Good News about Jesus Christ was in the face of works being necessary for salvation.

If it is faith in God to provide, then we should lead by example rather than use it as an excuse by giving a blessing just so we do not have to help someone when it is in our power & means to do so by what God has provided for us to give.

If it is faith in God to heal, it is important to note that those who impose it on others should lead by example but no one can see that until they get sick or injured or dying. So hardly leading by example for any one to follow that kind of faith.

Maybe I wasn't being clear. I wasn't talking about hypocrisy in the faith, but about your apparent teaching of 2 opposing faiths in the doctrine of Christ.

Specifically, you separate 2 faiths from one another, with one not having to do with the other: saving faith without justification of works, which is not dead though alone, and 'provisional' faith needing justification by works, to not be dead and alone.

Is it not therefore clear from this teaching, that saving faith both rejects being justified by works, and rejects being in agreement with any faith being justified by works? Saving faith separates and distances itself from any faith justified by works.

Saving faith that is alone needing no works, does not allow itself to be mixed with any faith needing works.

I.e. we seek salvation of God by faith alone needing no works to be saved, and then we seek justification with God by another kind of faith, that needs works to be justified: faith for salvation is separated from faith for justification, so that salvation of God is separated from justification with God.

Faith alone that rejects works for justification, is not the same kind of faith that demands works for justification, which rejects faith alone as being dead.

They are not the same faith, nor can they ever be, since they are in direct opposition to one another: each rejects being the same faith.

I am being as clear as possible this time, so that you can clearly see my point: it is not about hypocrisy in any faith, but about different and opposing faiths.

 

[Christ4Me]

Maybe I wasn't being clear. I wasn't talking about hypocrisy in the faith, but about your apparent teaching of 2 opposing faiths in the doctrine of Christ.

James was talking about the church's hypocrisy for blessing the poor about faith in God to provide but not leading by example in the eyes of the poor.

Specifically, you separate 2 faiths from one another, with one not having to do with the other: saving faith without justification of works, which is not dead though alone, and 'provisional' faith needing justification by works, to not be dead and alone.

Correct.

Is it not therefore clear from this teaching, that saving faith both rejects being justified by works, and rejects being in agreement with any faith being justified by works?

No, saving faith does not reject what James said about sharing faith in God to provide to the poor which requires leading by example.

James reject what the church was doing in blessing the poor in getting out of helping the poor. That was the abuse he was rebuking.

Saving faith separates and distances itself from any faith justified by works.

To be clearer "Saving faith separates and distances itself from any other faith towards God justified by works.

Saving faith that is alone needing no works, does not allow itself to be mixed with any faith needing works.

Applying faith in Jesus Christ for salvation' believing in Him is accounted unto us as righteousness.

Applying faith in God for any thing else when applying it to others, best be leading by example or that faith is dead in the eyes of others.

I.e. we seek salvation of God by faith alone needing no works to be saved, and then we seek justification with God by another kind of faith, that needs works to be justified: faith for salvation is separated from faith for justification, so that salvation of God is separated from justification with God.

is the church justified or doing what is right by blessing the poor just to get out of helping the poor? No. Does that mean the church is not saved? No. It means they better repent from being mean to the poor.

Faith alone that rejects works for justification, is not the same kind of faith that demands works for justification, which rejects faith alone as being dead.

Justification as referring to salvation is faith in Jesus Christ without works.

There is a use of the term justified when one is doing right by others. The church was not justified for blessing the brethren in getting out of helping the poor.

They are not the same faith, nor can they ever be, since they are in direct opposition to one another: each rejects being the same faith.

The saving faith in Jesus Christ for justification hence salvation, is without works, but we are not justified nor righteous for applying faith in God for anything to any one just to get out of helping others.

I am being as clear as possible this time, so that you can clearly see my point: it is not about hypocrisy in any faith, but about different and opposing faiths.

I can only hope in the Lord that He will continue to minister to both of us in this iron sharpen iron ministry of His.

 

[robert derrick]

James was talking about the church's hypocrisy for blessing the poor about faith in God to provide but not leading by example in the eyes of the poor.



Correct.



No, saving faith does not reject what James said about sharing faith in God to provide to the poor which requires leading by example.

James reject what the church was doing in blessing the poor in getting out of helping the poor. That was the abuse he was rebuking.



To be clearer "Saving faith separates and distances itself from any other faith towards God justified by works.



Applying faith in Jesus Christ for salvation' believing in Him is accounted unto us as righteousness.

Applying faith in God for any thing else when applying it to others, best be leading by example or that faith is dead in the eyes of others.



is the church justified or doing what is right by blessing the poor just to get out of helping the poor? No. Does that mean the church is not saved? No. It means they better repent from being mean to the poor.



Justification as referring to salvation is faith in Jesus Christ without works.

There is a use of the term justified when one is doing right by others. The church was not justified for blessing the brethren in getting out of helping the poor.



The saving faith in Jesus Christ for justification hence salvation, is without works, but we are not justified nor righteous for applying faith in God for anything to any one just to get out of helping others.



I can only hope in the Lord that He will continue to minister to both of us in this iron sharpen iron ministry of His.

I put a like for your post, not so much by agreeing with it all, but by appreciating your rarity in actually dealing with the points made, without reverting to rehashed mantras already posted.

You are answering my questions fairly, and meeting my challenges head on. Which is good, because it forces me to think more clearly about what I am believing about your '2 faiths'.

I don't have time now to study your post, but glancing through it I saw some interesting things I think I can agree with.

so, as the man said, "I'll be back". (Or the robot)

 

[Curtis]

Faith in Jesus Christ without works is how we are justified and thus saved.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You might want to study Paul and James more.

Paul emphasizes in all his epistles that we are not justified by works of righteousness of the law of Moses, while James emphasizes we are justified by different type of works than are found in the law of Moses.

Abraham believed starting from the promise, and through all the delays in having a son with his wife Sarah, but he was not justified until he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him - see verse 21 above.

He believed for many years before being justified.

 

[Christ4Me]

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You might want to study Paul and James more.

Paul emphasizes in all his epistles that we are not justified by works of righteousness of the law of Moses, while James emphasizes we are justified by different type of works than are found in the law of Moses.

Abraham believed starting from the promise, and through all the delays in having a son with his wife Sarah, but he was not justified until he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him - see verse 21 above.

He believed for many years before being justified.

If you really believe Paul & James were saying the same thing, then explain this below.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So James is not talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation as if needing works, but the faith in God's Providence that if any one says that they have faith in God to provide to the poor, they better be leading by example and not using that faith to get out of helping the poor.

See post # 88 at this link to this thread; Justification By Works

 

[robert derrick]

James was talking about the church's hypocrisy for blessing the poor about faith in God to provide but not leading by example in the eyes of the poor.



Correct.



No, saving faith does not reject what James said about sharing faith in God to provide to the poor which requires leading by example.

James reject what the church was doing in blessing the poor in getting out of helping the poor. That was the abuse he was rebuking.



To be clearer "Saving faith separates and distances itself from any other faith towards God justified by works.



Applying faith in Jesus Christ for salvation' believing in Him is accounted unto us as righteousness.

Applying faith in God for any thing else when applying it to others, best be leading by example or that faith is dead in the eyes of others.



is the church justified or doing what is right by blessing the poor just to get out of helping the poor? No. Does that mean the church is not saved? No. It means they better repent from being mean to the poor.



Justification as referring to salvation is faith in Jesus Christ without works.

There is a use of the term justified when one is doing right by others. The church was not justified for blessing the brethren in getting out of helping the poor.



The saving faith in Jesus Christ for justification hence salvation, is without works, but we are not justified nor righteous for applying faith in God for anything to any one just to get out of helping others.



I can only hope in the Lord that He will continue to minister to both of us in this iron sharpen iron ministry of His.

James was talking about the church's hypocrisy for blessing the poor about faith in God to provide but not leading by example in the eyes of the poor.

True, but as I already agreed with that part, it is not relevant to there being two distinc3e and separate faiths in the doctrine of Christ.

To be clearer "Saving faith separates and distances itself from any other faith towards God justified by works.

I can accept that as a more perfect statement of what you are teaching.

What I do like about your mind, is that you are not only well learned in what you believe, you also take pains to more perfectly to teach it.

As Rooster Cogburn said, "He reminds me of me."

However, the problem here is one faith taught in Scripture versus another faith taught by Scripture.

Applying faith in Jesus Christ for salvation' believing in Him is accounted unto us as righteousness.

By believing Him we are counted righteous and cleansed of all unrighteousness. Applying faith is doing it, which is justification by works, so that faith is not only in the mind alone.

It means they better repent from being mean to the poor.

Being saved means we had better repent of all sins and trespasses.

Justification as referring to salvation is faith in Jesus Christ without works.

That is if your teaching of two different opposing faiths in the doctrine of Christ is true.

There is a use of the term justified when one is doing right by others.

That is actually the only kind of justification in Scripture: it always has to do with doing the faith and living by it.

The just shall live by faith.

Justification in Scripture never is by faith alone. We are saved by grace through faith, and freely justified by grace to do the works of God. Both are by grace: believing and obeying Him.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is the substance and works are the evidence, and there is never one without the other. Faith without evidence is dead, being alone without works: Faith and works are judged the same in Scripture.

but we are not justified nor righteous for applying faith in God for anything to any one just to get out of helping others.

I agree with your take on hypocrisy of just speaking words of faith into the air, without doing works of faith unto the needful.

The dispute here is about being saved by a faith that is only believed in the mind, and is not applied in life for salvation.

I can only hope in the Lord that He will continue to minister to both of us in this iron sharpen iron ministry of His.

True, I am learning from it and enjoying it.

And I agree with the crux of your grievance with Christians that only 'speak faith' to others, without doing the faith for others.

However, I still view your salvation by faith alone to be similar, so that the crux of my grievance is with Christians that only speaks of faith for salvation, without doing faith for justification.

I believe that accurately sums up our disagreement, in context of your disagreement with others.

I look forward to your responses, and then I believe it will be time for me to list my objections to your teaching of salvation by faith alone verses justification by faith with works, not being alone.

 

[Curtis]

If you really believe Paul & James were saying the same thing, then explain this below.

I said they are talking about completely different kinds of works.

Did you even bother to read it?

 

[Christ4Me]

James was talking about the church's hypocrisy for blessing the poor about faith in God to provide but not leading by example in the eyes of the poor.

True, but as I already agreed with that part, it is not relevant to there being two distinc3e and separate faiths in the doctrine of Christ.

Not sure how you can be agreeing with that part, then.

To be clearer "Saving faith separates and distances itself from any other faith towards God justified by works.

I can accept that as a more perfect statement of what you are teaching.

What I do like about your mind, is that you are not only well learned in what you believe, you also take pains to more perfectly to teach it.

As Rooster Cogburn said, "He reminds me of me."

However, the problem here is one faith taught in Scripture versus another faith taught by Scripture.

There is no versus but understanding applying faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works because God did the saving by believing in Him and understanding that James was rebuking the church for applying faith in God to provide in sharing to the departing poor to get out of helping the poor rather than lead by example in their faith in God's Providence.

Applying faith in Jesus Christ for salvation' believing in Him is accounted unto us as righteousness.

By believing Him we are counted righteous and cleansed of all unrighteousness. Applying faith is doing it, which is justification by works, so that faith is not only in the mind alone.

Since our believing in Him is the work of the Father as He is the One that draws us unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) to reveal His Son to us so we can believe ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) because He knows who is seeking Him from those that prefer their evil deeds rather than not to believe ( John 3:18-21 ) Like it or not, the Father gives us to the Son to be saved by Him ( John 6:37-40 ) so our doing it by believing in Him is the work of God where no man can boast, but be thankful.

And there are plenty of scriptures that reminds us that we are not saved by any work we have done.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Christ4Me]

It means they better repent from being mean to the poor.

Being saved means we had better repent of all sins and trespasses.

Then where is the race which is what living by faith in Him to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily as His disciple is all about?

You have to be saved with Jesus Christ in us to even be in that race.

Justification as referring to salvation is faith in Jesus Christ without works.

That is if your teaching of two different opposing faiths in the doctrine of Christ is true.

They are not opposing, but only God can help you see that so ask Him.

There is a use of the term justified when one is doing right by others.

That is actually the only kind of justification in Scripture: it always has to do with doing the faith and living by it.

The just shall live by faith.

Justification in Scripture never is by faith alone.

For salvation, it is by faith alone when God does the saving. And since our believing in Him is also a work of God, how about being thankful?

We are saved by grace through faith, and freely justified by grace to do the works of God. Both are by grace: believing and obeying Him.

Point about John 1:12-13, unless you were born again, you would not be able to follow Him at all if He is not in you. Salvation is separate from discipleship or otherwise you would never get the holy Spirit and you cannot tell any one the Good News because Jesus is being denied by works as the Savior if one claims not saved yet but in the process of being saved.

The only obedience that is required is our obeying the gospel by believing in Him. When believers go astray and stop believing in Him in looking to works to prove they are saved, then they are running that race in vain when they are saved as identified as the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ. Does it require the work of confession? Does it require the willful act of believing in Him? When you consider how we confess and believe, we have nothing to boast about.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is the substance and works are the evidence, and there is never one without the other. Faith without evidence is dead, being alone without works: Faith and works are judged the same in Scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Seems His work alone is glorified in scripture and we got nothing to boast about in anything God has done in us, and doing in us. & finishing in us.

 

[Christ4Me]

but we are not justified nor righteous for applying faith in God for anything to any one just to get out of helping others.

I agree with your take on hypocrisy of just speaking words of faith into the air, without doing works of faith unto the needful.

The dispute here is about being saved by a faith that is only believed in the mind, and is not applied in life for salvation.

John 3:7-18 would have Jesus disagree with you, brother. It did happen in Acts 10:43-44 before they confessed with their mouths and even before going forward to be water baptized.

 

[Christ4Me]

I can only hope in the Lord that He will continue to minister to both of us in this iron sharpen iron ministry of His.

True, I am learning from it and enjoying it.

And I agree with the crux of your grievance with Christians that only 'speak faith' to others, without doing the faith for others.

However, I still view your salvation by faith alone to be similar, so that the crux of my grievance is with Christians that only speaks of faith for salvation, without doing faith for justification.

I believe that accurately sums up our disagreement, in context of your disagreement with others.

I look forward to your responses, and then I believe it will be time for me to list my objections to your teaching of salvation by faith alone verses justification by faith with works, not being alone.

Probably best to address the scripture shared with you about how we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ without works les any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How we follow Him by believing in Him is also a work of God since faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit for us to live by faith, thanks to Jesus Christ.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.... 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

That is why it is written that the just shall live by faith in Him alone rather than looking to ourselves in doing the best we can as if under the law.

When I see me applying faith in Jesus Christ, having all my hopes in Him as my Savior that I am saved for believing in Him and hope in Him as my Good Shepherd & Friend for His help daily for following Him, where can we boast except to glory in the Lord in giving Him all the praise for my being?

Psalm 28:4 Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert. 5 Because they regard not the works of the Lord, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up. 6 Blessed be the Lord, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world....

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[Christ4Me]

I said they are talking about completely different kinds of works.

Did you even bother to read it?

Sure read as if you were saying the faith were the same as leading into James for why believing Abraham was not justified until works in bold.

You might want to study Paul and James more.

Paul emphasizes in all his epistles that we are not justified by works of righteousness of the law of Moses, while James emphasizes we are justified by different type of works than are found in the law of Moses.

Abraham believed starting from the promise, and through all the delays in having a son with his wife Sarah, but he was not justified until he took Isaac up the mountain to sacrifice him - see verse 21 above.

He believed for many years before being justified.

I know you started out as saying they are different but then you null & void that believing God as what made Abraham righteous until Abraham was justified by works per Isaac, but that justification by works was about what he had said to Isaac about God providing and that is what James was referring to as the moral of the story so to speak by how Abraham named the place as Jehovah-jireh which means God provides for His servants.

And there are plenty of scriptures that reminds us that we are not saved by any work we have done.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[robert derrick]

I said they are talking about completely different kinds of works.

Did you even bother to read it?

None that believe salvation by faith alone, as always being separate from all works, will ever acknowledge the difference between works of our own righteousness without faith, which Paul rebuked, and works of His righteousness by faith, which James commanded for justification fo the faith with God.

 

[Christ4Me]

None that believe salvation by faith alone, as always being separate from all works, will ever acknowledge the difference between works of our own righteousness without faith, which Paul rebuked, and works of His righteousness by faith, which James commanded for justification fo the faith with God.

This does not put a smile on my face. Just when I had thought the Lord was working, it seems you were working to go back to defending your belief.

So be it.