Catholic issues

[Berserk]

LOL, born of water, born of the spirt is not rewriting scripture!

Anyway, bored with your endless claims, without Scriptural verification.

And I am bored by your relentless refusal to let Scripture interpret Scripture. You can find no example of the Greek phrase "born of water" meaning amniotic fluid. That's because Peter makes clear that the phrase "born of water and the Spirit" refers to baptism and regeneration. Peter rightly understands Jesus: "Baptism...now saves you (1 Peter 3:21)" and thus makes baptism and repentance conditions of divine forgiveness: "Repent and be baptized...so that your sins may be forgiven (Acts 2:38)."

 

[Taken]

And I am bored by your relentless refusal to let Scripture interpret Scripture. You can find no example of the Greek phrase "born of water" meaning amniotic fluid. That's because Peter makes clear that the phrase "born of water and the Spirit" refers to baptism and regeneration. Peter rightly understands Jesus: "Baptism...now saves you (1 Peter 3:21)" and thus makes baptism and repentance conditions of divine forgiveness: "Repent and be baptized...so that your sins may be forgiven (Acts 2:38)."

Amniotic fluid is a rather modern term.
Since the beginning of mankind....any female having birthed a child, or anyone having assisted birthing a child....can plainly see the a gush of water and child come forth from the sac (placenta) inside the womb, and have the sense to know, that is a child being born!

Natural birth IS one being born out of a water sac.
Jesus simplified it saying; BORN OF WATER.

Jesus said more than simply: BORN OF WATER, Jesus expressly revealed that a MAN had to “ BE BORN OF WATER AND BORN OF the HOLY SPIRIT “ to enter the Kingdom of “GOD”.

* By your teaching......All men who were naturally born, for centuries BEFORE John the Baptist arrived on Earth.........missed the water Baptism, so are NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.....<—- which is utter nonsense.

John the Baptists baptism was for repentance of sin...NOT a WATER BIRTH!

Matt 3:
[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:

 

[Berserk]

Amniotic fluid is a rather modern term.
Since the beginning of mankind....any female having birthed a child, or anyone having assisted birthing a child....can plainly see the a gush of water and child come forth from the sac (placenta) inside the womb, and have the sense to know, that is a child being born!

Taken: "Natural birth IS one being born out of a water sac.
Jesus simplified it saying; BORN OF WATER."

You just unwittingly conceded my point: to repeat, you can provide no example of the use of "born of water" as a reference to amniotic fluid or its equivalent. So you brazenly eisegete into the text!

Taken: "Jesus said more than simply: BORN OF WATER, Jesus expressly revealed that a MAN had to “ BE BORN OF WATER AND BORN OF the HOLY SPIRIT “ to enter the Kingdom of “GOD”.

As Catholics recognize, you again brazenly miss the point: Jesus is identifying 2 conditions that must be met to "enter the kingdom of heaven."
Natural birth is no such condition because all humans experience it.



Taken: "John the Baptists baptism was for repentance of sin...NOT a WATER BIRTH!
Matt 3:[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:"

First, Christian baptism, not John's baptism, is the point at issue in John 3:3, 5.
Second, if you actually read my post carefully, you'd realize that. according to Peter, divine forgiveness requires both repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38) and that is why Peter can proceed to say, "Baptism...now saves you (1 Peter 3:21)." Interesting how you freeze like Bambi in the headlights before these texts from God's Word. All doubt about "born of water" as a baptismal reference is removed by Jesus' identification of faith and baptism as a condition for salvation: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16)."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

baptism imply water that’s why in Jn 3:22 they went to the RIVER to baptize in the damn water! STUPID!

That's wrong. That's where the church screwed up

Baptism is a greek word that is not native english if your going to look for how the apostles who used the word. You need to find the greek meaning, not the english.

Baptizo means to immerse to, place into, to be overwhelmed

In classical Ancient Greek, we have examples of a soldier baptizing their swords in blood before battle. A baptized was a person who baptized garments in a liquid dye to change its appearance. Even in scripture. We have Jesus baptized in the cup (the cross) of our salvation. The children of Israel being baptized into moses. And Gods children being baptized into Christ. Even the children of Israel baptized their utensils to make them ceremonially clean.

It was the church who changed the meaning of baptism into always meaning water. It was never that way in the use of the literal word in Ancient Greek.

 

[theefaith]

That's wrong. That's where the church screwed up

Baptism is a greek word that is not native english if your going to look for how the apostles who used the word. You need to find the greek meaning, not the english.

Baptizo means to immerse to, place into, to be overwhelmed

In classical Ancient Greek, we have examples of a soldier baptizing their swords in blood before battle. A baptized was a person who baptized garments in a liquid dye to change its appearance. Even in scripture. We have Jesus baptized in the cup (the cross) of our salvation. The children of Israel being baptized into moses. And Gods children being baptized into Christ. Even the children of Israel baptized their utensils to make them ceremonially clean.

It was the church who changed the meaning of baptism into always meaning water. It was never that way in the use of the literal word in Ancient Greek.

The church founded by Christ can teach error???????????????????


where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The church founded by Christ can teach error???????????????????

What I posted was truth. It was true before Jesus even came to earth. so long before the church was created the word baptizo was used exactly the way I said. You should look it up.

The true church would interpret baptize (Baptizo) correctly. Not falsely.

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

FOR BY GRACE we HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH. NOT OF WORKS

we are saved by grace period. However God will not force us to recieve his gift. that is why it is through faith that it is granted.

either way Grace and works CAN NOT MIX

IF IT IS OF GRACE. it is NO LONGER OF WORKS otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE but by HIS MERCY HE SAVED US

you have been shown these verses multiple times. Why you wish oi ignore them is on you

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST and INTO HIS DEATH.

NO WATER is involved. As I proved in thos post. JESUS CHRIST and HIS DEATH are the item that we are BAPTIZED (GREEK BAPTIZO - to PLACE INTO. TO IMMERSE)

it is sad that people looks at these passages and see water where no water is mentions.

It does not say baptize in water into Jesus Christ.

it says baptized into Jesus Christ.

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY. not water.

Again, your misinterpretation of the word Baptizo is your problem.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

once again BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST. NOT WATER

once again, Your interpretation is in error. We are baptized into all of these things BY GOD the moment of faith. They are part of our salvation. by grace through faith. NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone should boast

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The penalty of sin is DEATH, the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life. THROUGH JESUS

You can't earn a gift my friend

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

NOT THE REMOVAL OF THE FILTH OF THE FLESH. Water baptism DOES NOT SAVE YOU. If the sin of the flesh is not removed YOUR STILL DEAD IN YOUR SIN

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

you will only see what you want to see. This post here proves it (let me rephrase, you will only see what you are told by your church)

Eph 2 8 - 9 is faith alone

Rom 4 is faith alone

Faith minus works equals faith alone.

The word trinity is not found in scripture. Yet you believe (I assume) it is true

just because you only see faith alone in james does not mean its the only place.

Open your eyes my friend, I beg of you

 

[theefaith]

we are saved by grace period.

then all are saved! Yahoo!

 

[Marymog]

Titus 3 is baptism of the spirit, not water

Water is a work f righteousness. Paul told Titus, not by works of righteousness which we have done (water baptism, The Eucharist, Penance, Comfession or whatever work you want to insert) but by GODS MERCY he saved us through the WASHING OF REGENERATION OF (BY) THE HS

Your attributing to man the work of the HS. Thats blasphemy You need to start studying the Bible yourself maam.

This one verse alone shoudl make you shutter in fear how you have misrepresented the work of God in salvation and placed it on mans shoulders and given yourself and the one who baptised you credit for the work of God.

EG.....Your teaching started about 500 years ago and is blasphemy to NT Christians.

Titus 3:5 IS about water just like all the other passages I quoted from the OT all the way thru the NT: WATER (H20) and SPIRIT. Paul was baptized with water (Acts 9:18) and he baptized (with water) in Acts and he said he baptized (with water) in 1 Corinthians. Acts 2 and 22 talk about washing away your sins and receiving the Holy Spirit when you are baptized with water but your theory is that when Paul wrote to Titus he wasn't talking about baptizing with water? Paul all of a sudden makes a big switch when writing to Titus to say that "washing" doesn't mean with water. Oh goodness....who taught you that?

You should shudder (not shutter) in fear of the men who continue to teach you such heresy. What else are they lying to you about?

 

[Marymog]

BAPTISM WAS NOT MENTIONED IN JOHN 3.

HOW MANY MORE TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD?

How many more times do you have to be SHOWN. YES, baptism was mentioned in John 3 AND in John 1:33 and 3:22-23 and in John 4 and John 10. The problem is you have been taught that even though throughout ALL of John it talks about water baptism but that one time, ONE TIME that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus he wasn't talking about water baptism. FASCINATING.....

And PLEASE don't say the water is amniotic fluid. That teaching of men started about 500 years ago or less. Even the men who started the Reformation didn't even believe that heretical teaching. You are following the teachings of men who fell from the tree of the reformers and then fell from that tree....Goodness gracious. How far you have fallen.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG.....Your teaching started about 500 years ago and is blasphemy to NT Christians.

Keep believing this. It does not prove me wrong. its just your word.

Titus 3:5 IS about water just like all the other passages I quoted from the OT all the way thru the NT: WATER (H20) and SPIRIT. Paul was baptized with water (Acts 9:18) and he baptized (with water) in Acts and he said he baptized (with water) in 1 Corinthians. Acts 2 and 22 talk about washing away your sins and receiving the Holy Spirit when you are baptized with water but your theory is that when Paul wrote to Titus he wasn't talking about baptizing with water? Paul all of a sudden makes a big switch when writing to Titus to say that "washing" doesn't mean with water. Oh goodness....who taught you that?

You should shudder (not shutter) in fear of the men who continue to teach you such heresy. What else are they lying to you about?

lol. washing of regeneration OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

it is the Holy spirit doing the word. Not your priest.

The new birth and baptism of the HS is spoken of here. not water.

I should shudder because I believe in the work of God for salvation not the work of man. In a spiritual work of the HS baptizing me in christ, not some man baptizing me water (do you even do immersion baptism? don;t you just sprinkle?)

I am not the one who should bow down in fear here Mary. I also do not listen to men. Unlike you. I do what God demanded and test each spirit out.

You want to follow man feel free. Don;t accuse me of doing it because it makes you feel better.

 

[Marymog]

There was baptism (water) in the OT. It has always been around.

Yup, that is true. And Christianity continued that water baptism by following the example of Jesus (he was baptized) and doing what he told us to do: baptize ALL nations.

 

[Marymog]

The issue is the people who translated the Bible did not actually translate the word. They transliterated the word. So we have this religion that says every time you see the word baptize IT MUST MEAN WATER> and ever time you see the word water IT MUST MEAN BAPTISM,

News flash. THESE PEOPLE ARE WRONG!..

There it is.....You finally admitted it....2,000 years of Christian teaching is WRONG and your men are RIGHT

oh goodness....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How many more times do you have to be SHOWN. YES, baptism was mentioned in John 3 AND in John 1:33 and 3:22-23 and in John 4 and John 10. The problem is you have been taught that even though throughout ALL of John it talks about water baptism but that one time, ONE TIME that Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus he wasn't talking about water baptism. FASCINATING.....

And PLEASE don't say the water is amniotic fluid. That teaching of men started about 500 years ago or less. Even the men who started the Reformation didn't even believe that heretical teaching. You are following the teachings of men who fell from the tree of the reformers and then fell from that tree....Goodness gracious. How far you have fallen.

that which is born of flesh is flesh, (water) that which is born of spirit is spirit (spirit)

And no. You have not proven Jesus told nicodemus how one is born again by being baptized. Jesus did not mention baptism in telling him how one is born again.

I posted the conversation. and you want to go outside what jesus said to prove something

by the way, You 500 year nonsense is just that

your belief did not start until the 3rd century, 2 can play that game, but it does neither one of us any good. Because the argument of when someones belief started does not support either of our cases.

We only use it when we are out of answer or arguments.

 

[Marymog]

I am not the one who should bow down in fear here Mary. I also do not listen to men.

Another fascinating admission in this post.......You don't listen to men. You listen to yourself............which means YOU will NEVER be WRONG.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yup, that is true. And Christianity continued that water baptism by following the example of Jesus (he was baptized) and ep

But NO ONE WAS SAVED BY BAPTISM IN THE OT!

romans 4:
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Abraham was not saved by baptism. Nor are any of his children. Our faith is what saves us like his faith saved him

He was fully convinced that what God promised God will do. and because of that God credited to his account righteousness

I too am fully convinced that what God promised he will do. For this reason. As having the faith of Abraham. I to am credited righteousness. and am justified.

Why do you fail to be fully convinced God will do what he promises. why do you think he needs your help? Why do you fail to see the cross is the means of salvation, his resurrection assures our justification.

Your baptism in water does nothing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There it is.....You finally admitted it....2,000 years of Christian teaching is WRONG and your men are RIGHT

oh goodness....

my men?

Sorry maam, I have no men

when I stand in front of God I am not going to tell God I listened to men and did what they told me to do so I am saved

I will fall on my knees and say I am not worthy, Only by your grace could I be saved.. so I am at your mercy.

Your the one who listens to men. Not me

Don't attack and falsely accuse me for doing what you do

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Another fascinating admission in this post.......You don't listen to men. You listen to yourself............which means YOU will NEVER be WRONG.

Nope

I listen to GOD. He wrote the word.

As jesus said, it is the spirit who gives life. the words I speak are spirit and life.

I also never claimed to never be wrong. I have been proven wrong many times

Unlike you however. I am humble enough to admit and to test what people say to make sure.

 

[Marymog]

your belief did not start until the 3rd century, 2 can play that game, but it does neither one of us any good. Because the argument of when someones belief started does not support either of our cases.

Another complete and provable LIE. Here is the first 200 years of what Christianity has taught about baptism WITH WATER and its REGENERATION:

“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” —Didache 7:1 Date: 70 A.D.

“Regarding [baptism], we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of their own instead [Ps. 1:3–6]. Observe there how he describes both the water and the cross in the same figure. His meaning is, ‘Blessed are those who go down into the water with their hopes set on the cross.’ Here he is saying that after we have stepped down into the water, burdened with sin and defilement, we come up out of it bearing fruit, with reverence in our hearts and the hope of Jesus in our souls” —Barnabas, Letter of Barnabas 11:1–10 Date: 74 A.D.

“I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is” —Hermas, The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 Date: 80 A.D.

“As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven”—Justin Martr, First Apology 61 Date: 151 A.D.

“For since you have read, O Trypho, as you yourself admitted, the doctrines taught by our Saviour, I do not think that I have done foolishly in adding some short utterances of His to the prophetic statements. Wash therefore, and be now clean, and put away iniquity from your souls, as God bids you be washed in this laver, and be circumcised with the true circumcision… The command of circumcision, again, bidding [them] always circumcise the children on the eighth day, was a type of the true circumcision, by which we are circumcised from deceit and iniquity through Him who rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath, [namely through] our Lord Jesus Christ”—Justin Martyr, Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, a Jew 18 & 41 Date: 160 A.D.

“our Christ, by being crucified on the tree, and by purifying [us] with water, has redeemed us, though plunged in the direst offenses which we have committed, and has made [us] a house of prayer and adoration… “the mystery of saved men appeared in the deluge. For righteous Noah, along with the other mortals at the deluge, i.e., with his own wife, his three sons and their wives, being eight in number, were a symbol of the eighth day, wherein Christ appeared when He rose from the dead, for ever the first in power. For Christ, being the first-born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, and faith, and wood, containing the mystery of the cross; even as Noah was saved by wood when he rode over the waters …I mean, that by water, faith, and wood, those who are afore-prepared, and who repent of the sins which they have committed, shall escape from the impending judgment of God.” —Justin Martyr, Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, a Jew 18 & 41 Date: 160 A.D.

“Then said Jesus unto them, ‘I have been given all authority in heaven and earth; and as my Father has sent me, so I also send you. Go now into all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto the end of the world”—Tatian the Syrian, The Diatesseron 55 Date: 170 A.D.

“Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration—all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God”—Tehophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus 12:16 Date: 181 A.D.

“And when we come to refute them [the gnostic], we shall show in its fitting- place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith…For the baptism instituted by the visible Jesus was for the remission of sins” —Irenaeus, Against Heresies 21:1-2 Date: 189 A.D.

“And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” —Irenaeus, Fragment 34 Date: 190 A.D.

“When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Ps. 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation”—Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 Date: 191 A.D.

“Now faith occasions this for us even as the Elders, the disciples of the Apostles, have handed it down to us. First of all, it bids us to keep in mind that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was incarnate, died and rose again, and in the Holy Spirit of God. This baptism is the seal of eternal life and the new birth unto God that we should no longer be the sons of mortal men but of the eternal and perpetual God.” — Irenaeus, The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, Date: 192 A.D.

“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” —Tertullian, Baptism 1 Date: 203 A.D.

Now PLEASE show me when YOUR teaching of amniotic fluid and regeneration started. YOUR theory is that it doesn't matter when the teacing started? Your 500 year teaching is just as valid as the 2,000 year teaching???? Why did God allow men to be deceived for the first 1,500 years of Christianity with this "false teaching" about baptism and then all of a sudden told your men the truth 500 years ago??? Can you see how your theory is bankrupt???

Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

Baptism with water DOES something. We do what he told us to do: baptize all nations

Maybe YOU don't think that you have to do what he tells you to do but I do. It DOES something when I obey Him

 

[Pearl]

we are saved by grace period.

then all are saved! Yahoo!

You really don't get it do you @theefaith ? We are saved by God's grace when we turn to Jesus and are reconciled with God through Christ's blood by which we are cleansed of our sin. It's called being born again. We have a relationship with the Living God rather than dead religion.