John Calvin and Calvinism.

[GodsGrace]

Both. One in three, three in one. Both. :)

Grace and peace!

How is that?
It can't be both.
God in 3 persons makes 3 gods.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope.

What you described is the general call of the Gospel to repent and believe. It goes to everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, an invitation to everyone without limit. All your Scripture citations are such.

But God and God only calls His elect by His Holy Spirit, and these are the ones who are reborn of the Spirit and that subsequently, because of the heart of flesh that they have been given (that has replaced the heart of stone), then come to repentance and belief. And this call, unlike the general call, is effectual without fail.

Grace and peace to you.

Do you ever use scripture?
Can you post some scripture regarding these two different calls?

John said he was writing his gospel message so that we may have fellowship with him.
I don't get the message you understand.

I posted many verses.
Maybe you could pick one or two and explain them to me?

Maybe you could post something that confirms what you believe?

If not, it's only your opinion.
And not what Jesus taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, then how do you understand what David says in Psalm 139, GG? Namely:

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalm 51:5)​

Augustine was right about this, and so was John Calvin, and so are all those that have come after.

You, like many others do not comprehend Pslam 51:5
What does
IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIVE ME mean to YOU?
That the baby sinned?
Or that the mother sinned?

Maybe you could read some commentaries on this that are not calvinist.

No, man sins (and is culpable for that sin) because he is born with only the sinful nature, because he is descended from Adam, the federal head of the human race, who plunged humanity into this condition when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, documented in Genesis 3. God does not "predestinate (man) to sin," otherwise He Himself is capable of sin and even the author of sin, which is a blasphemy and absolutely not the case. As Jonathan Edwards wrote:

"If by ‘the author of sin,’ be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing... it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin."​

HOWEVER. Edwards does subsequently say ~ and he is right... :) ~ the following;

"(God is) the permitter... of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes... If the sun were the proper cause of cold and darkness, it would be the fountain of these things, as it is the fountain of light and heat: and then something might be argued from the nature of cold and darkness, to a likeness of nature in the sun..."​

In other words, sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence. What this means is that God wills things in two different senses. The Bible demands this by the way it speaks of God’s will in different ways. Edwards uses the terms “will of decree” and “will of command,” and explains that "(God’s) will of decree (or sovereign will) is not His will in the same sense as His will of command (or moral will) is."

Will of decree and Will of command is also known as the Interior will of God and the Exterior will of God.
THESE TWO WILLS, whatever one wants to call them, DO NOT EXIST.

God has ONE WILL:
I posted 1 Timothy 2:4
Could you explain how it does NOT mean what it clearly says?
It states that GOD WISHES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED...
But not all will be because God gave to us the free will to choose whether or not we wish to be saved.

You do NOT understand calvinism.
God ALLOWING evil to happen is what all Christians believe.
This is NOT what the reformed calvinist faith believes.
Calvin states that EVERYTHING happens because God so will it and predestinates it.
John Piper says that even the molecules are predestined to act as God wills it.

Please post scripture that states that God has two wills.

Also, you should read the bible instead of books about systematic theology.
What Jesus taught is more important than what a man teaches.
The man could be wrong, Jesus cannot be wrong.

In calvinism, God CAUSES sin to happen.
This makes God a sinner.

Therefore it is not difficult at all to suppose that the one may be otherwise than the other: His will in both senses is His inclination. But when we say He wills virtue, or loves virtue or the happiness of His creature; thereby is intended that virtue or the creature’s happiness, absolutely and simply considered, is agreeable to the inclination of his nature. His will of decree is his inclination to a thing not as to that thing absolutely and simply, but with reference to the universality of things. So God, though he hates a things as it is simply, may incline to it with reference to the universality of things.

How can you state that God wants the happiness of His creatures when most of them He destines to hell?

This perception ~ misperception ~ manifests itself among many only because those on the other side of the fence either don't understand or refuse to admit that in the Bible ~ like everywhere else ~ coins always have two sides, and not just one. :)

Grace and peace to you.

No two sides to the coin in the bible PS.
If this were true..NOTHING in the bible could be trusted.
Think about what you just stated....

 

[GodsGrace]

I think when you say it's ridiculous, you have a problem with Calvinism.

John Calvin:
“The will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.”

“What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance.”

“But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.”

Many times I'm told I don't understand Calvinism (the reformed faith).
The reason is clear from your post above to the other member.
I must say that you're the one who is correct in what calvinism states.
I mean, if you're going to be a calvinist, be a calvinist !

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, think what you want. I have no problem with that. Or Calvinism in general. :)


And I'm in perfect accord with what John Calvin has said here.

Grace and peace to you.

IF you're in perfect accord with @Rudometkin then you'll have to accept the fact that
God causes EVERYTHING that happens, including murder, child abuse, disease, etc.
Your top teacher/preachers, theologians, do admit to this BTW...
and with no shame.

 

[Enoch111]

IF you're in perfect accord with @Rudometkin then you'll have to accept the fact that
God causes EVERYTHING that happens, including murder, child abuse, disease, etc.
Your top teacher/preachers, theologians, do admit to this BTW...
and with no shame.

It's a total waste of time to discuss Bible truth with Calvinists. Just like it's a total waste of time to discuss any truth with Leftists. They are all steeped in lies. The real issue is "Why are lies more appealing than truth?"

 

[PinSeeker]

IF you're in perfect accord with @Rudometkin...

You can go back and check for yourself, GG, but what I said was, "(Rudometkin and I) are on the same side regarding John Calvin," and later in that same post (336) that, "I wholeheartedly agree with Calvin's statement quoted (by Rudometkin) above. And in post 340, I said the same thing, that, "...I'm in perfect accord with what John Calvin has said (t)here," in his Institutes, cited by Rudometkin.

...then you'll have to accept the fact that God causes EVERYTHING that happens, including murder, child abuse, disease, etc.

In the sense that God allows, for a time, and even uses ~ but in no way authors or condones ~ the sinful acts of men to accomplish His purposes, I'll allow what you say, ridiculous as it is.

your top teacher/preachers, theologians, do admit to this BTW... and with no shame.

No, they don't. See above. You, GodsGrace, like Rudometkin, and some other posters here ~ though your heart possibly be in the right place ~ are overstating things and therefore making untrue statements.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

"Why are lies more appealing than truth?"

Must Be The Biblical Principle Of:

"That they all might be damned who believed not The Truth, but had

pleasure in unrighteousness." (2Th_2:12)?

 

[TEXBOW]

Okay, think what you want. I have no problem with that. Or Calvinism in general. :)


And I'm in perfect accord with what John Calvin has said here.

Grace and peace to you.

Calvinism vs. Hyper-Calvinism.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

I have found that people who disagree with calvinism, do so because of 1. They think God has the same thought process as they do, or 2. They dont like being told they are sinners, depraved from the beginning.
They tend to think everything about God should be happy, upbeat, and never fearful.

 

[TEXBOW]

I have found that people who disagree with calvinism, do so because of 1. They think God has the same thought process as they do, or 2. They dont like being told they are sinners, depraved from the beginning.
They tend to think everything about God should be happy, upbeat, and never fearful.

That might be true for some but not most. Some of us simply understand the scriptures differently

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

That might be true for some but not most. Some of us simply understand the scriptures differently

differently…. Not the word i would have used.

 

[TEXBOW]

differently…. Not the word i would have used.

Don't feel bad. Mormons and Catholics feel the same way about my understanding of the scriptures. No worries.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's a total waste of time to discuss Bible truth with Calvinists. Just like it's a total waste of time to discuss any truth with Leftists. They are all steeped in lies. The real issue is "Why are lies more appealing than truth?"

This is an interesting question.
Why would someone believe in a God that hates His creation enough to send the majority to hell?
That programs us like a bunch of robots?
Who will never get any true love from us because true love is given freely and not programed.
Why would this god even create us to begin with?
So He could play games with us?

WHY are the lies of God's character so readily accepted by some?

Interesting question...

 

[GodsGrace]

I have found that people who disagree with calvinism, do so because of 1. They think God has the same thought process as they do, or 2. They dont like being told they are sinners, depraved from the beginning.
They tend to think everything about God should be happy, upbeat, and never fearful.

This is silly nonsense LL.
God has the same thought process as we do! REALLY!!!
And then I'm told that, No, calvinists are not superior in attitude...
YOUR attitude actually shows that you think we're pretty stupid.

1. All Christians know we don't have God's brain and can't think like He does.

2. All Christians know we are born sinners.

3. We all know that God is Love, Mercy and JUST.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't feel bad. Mormons and Catholics feel the same way about my understanding of the scriptures. No worries.

Catholics understand the scripture as we do, except for a couple of passages, both having to do with purgatory.
I'd say their problem is having some teaching that goes BEYOND what scripture states...
I don't know if this puts them in the same category as the church of JC of LDS.
I don't think so...

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

This is an interesting question.
Why would someone believe in a God that hates His creation enough to send the majority to hell?
That programs us like a bunch of robots?
Who will never get any true love from us because true love is given freely and not programed.
Why would this god even create us to begin with?
So He could play games with us?

WHY are the lies of God's character so readily accepted by some?

Interesting question...

you underestimate sin. You think God will save the majority of mankind??? He wont. We have numerous scripture verses telling us that only a few will make it. The reality is, BILLIONS of people will end up in hell. We are all sinners, We all deserve hell. To think otherwise is prideful. You deserve hell, i most definitely deserve hell. Yet when God saved 1 person, it is God who will get the glory. And when 1 person is thrown into hell, all of creation will give God glory for being just, fair, and giving back what people have earned.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Too many people see God as some flower in His hair hippie saving everyone. The Biblical God will be fair, and just, and fearful, and ruler who will not settle for any excuses. Just like in Job, God told Job that he was going to stand and explain Himself to God. God set job straight and right quickly. It will be the same for us all. I do think judgement day will be different for everyone, but for me personally, i cant think of a worse day. Nothing is scarier to me than facing God.

 

[Rudometkin]

I do think judgement day will be different for everyone, but for me personally, i cant think of a worse day. Nothing is scarier to me than facing God.

Believing, trusting, hoping on what Jesus Christ did is evidence that He has washed you with His blood.(maybe you don't believe on Him, I don't know)

What is there to fear on judgement day, when Jesus the Judge Himself sees His own perfect works in you?

It's not what you did, it's not what I did, it's what Jesus did. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Lord Jesus, you lived a perfect life. You said those who believe on you, you will never cast out!

Look at those who Jesus turned away on Judgement day.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Their hope was in their own works, and they presented their best defense to God. They presented their dirty rags to God. It wasn't good enough. Condemned forever. Like you said, the Lord didn't settle for any excuses. It is a terrifying thought to face God on Judgement day all by yourself. Imagine how much more terrifying it 'actually' is.

A believer's hope is in Christ's works, and on Judgement day, no case needs to be made. Glory to God forever.

I am convinced that the believer's salvation is as sure as Christ's perfection.

 

[PinSeeker]

Why would someone believe in a God that hates His creation enough to send the majority to hell? That programs us like a bunch of robots? Who will never get any true love from us because true love is given freely and not programmed.

Well, I'm most certainly a Calvinist through and through (I think he was right), but none of these characterizations fit at all the way Calvinists view God and His character. Alas, they're just gross misperceptions and mischaracterizations.

Why would this god even create us to begin with? So He could play games with us?

LOL! :)

There is no "game." But, with Paul, we say:

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and how inscrutable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor, or who has given a gift to Him, that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.”

WHY are the lies of God's character so readily accepted by some? Interesting question...

The interesting question is really, why do so many deliberately or possibly inadvertently misconstrue the Calvinist understanding of God's character? Well, obviously to create straw-man arguments. But like I said, many are not even aware of this.

Grace and peace to you, GG.