John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Rudometkin]

We all know who brought us into existence but do you know why?

Can anything exist apart from God's power?

I'll answer your question. I know why God brought us into existence. Solely for His Glory.

I pray that we all understand God's word and one day we will all know the truth.

Thank you, I hope the same.

Can anything exist apart from God's power?

 

[TEXBOW]

No, that is not what I am saying.

The idea is very simple.

You established God creates evil. ("God did create all things")

So how can you rationally deny He causes evil? What is the difference?

And why do you deny He causes evil? He boldly, unapologetically reveals His active, focused, intentional Sovereignty over all things.

Do you think it would be wrong for God to cause evil? If so, why? You already establish He creates it all.

Rudo, you continue to make assumptions. I did not establish that God creates evil. God hates evil so why would he create it it? Man sins, not God. We cannot confuse God's wrath as evil. This is not hard to understand, God didn't make Eve eat the forbidden fruit.

 

[Rudometkin]

Rudo, you continue to make assumptions. I did not establish that God creates evil.

God did create all things

You continue to confuse.

 

[Grailhunter]

LOL! We Christians, Grailhunter, love because God first loved us, as John says in 1 John 4:19. Is John saying that love is somehow "forced" on us? Well no... :) But worship is the natural result of receiving God's love. Our chief desire becomes to love Him, and this love manifests itself in us in many different ways, including worshiping Him.

Yes that is true....but non of that is predestined.....we choose to love God.....we choose to be obedient.
No robot Christians.
Free-will rules!

 

[Enoch111]

Ah, now we're getting to the issue. Just because God elects some unto salvation and some not does not negate or lessen in any way the need for Christ and His work of atonement on the cross. Adam's fall in Genesis 3 made that an absolute necessity.

Here's a good example of Calvinistic blindness. So let's take this a step at a time.

1. Was Adam the progenitor of the human race? Absolutely
2. Are ALL humans subject to sin and death because of Adam? Absolutely
3. Do ALL humans therefore need to be saved? Absolutely
4. Does God now command ALL men everywhere to repent? Absolutely
5. Does God now command ALL men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Absolutely

So why would God command ALL men everywhere to repent and believe, if he has already decided that only some will be saved? DO YOU SEE THE ABSURDITY?

 

[TEXBOW]

Here's a good example of Calvinistic blindness. So let's take this a step at a time.

1. Was Adam the progenitor of the human race? Absolutely
2. Are ALL humans subject to sin and death because of Adam? Absolutely
3. Do ALL humans therefore need to be saved? Absolutely
4. Does God now command ALL men everywhere to repent? Absolutely
5. Does God now command ALL men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Absolutely

So why would God command ALL men everywhere to repent and believe, if he has already decided that only some will be saved? DO YOU SEE THE ABSURDITY?

Brace yourself, we are about to be told we simply do not understand Calvinism.

 

[Rudometkin]

Here's a good example of Calvinistic blindness. So let's take this a step at a time.

1. Was Adam the progenitor of the human race? Absolutely
2. Are ALL humans subject to sin and death because of Adam? Absolutely
3. Do ALL humans therefore need to be saved? Absolutely
4. Does God now command ALL men everywhere to repent? Absolutely
5. Does God now command ALL men everywhere to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Absolutely

So why would God command ALL men everywhere to repent and believe, if he has already decided that only some will be saved? DO YOU SEE THE ABSURDITY?

You must think it's absurd for God to have ordained the crucifixion while commanding men to not murder.

 

[PinSeeker]

The Elect are those who have made the free will choice to serve Christ.

Yes, but the fact is that they make the free will choice to serve Christ because they are Elect, and because they have been born again of the Spirit. Take a look at this little episode in John 10:

"At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.'”​

Noticed the underlined part. The order there is very, very important. Jesus said, "You do not believe because you are not among my sheep." He did not say, "You are not among my sheep (the ones who His Father has given to Him) because you do not believe." No, He said (again), "You do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

Hey, even to His disciples, Jesus said:

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you." (John 15:16)​

And Paul draws on this very statement of Jesus's when he says:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-10)​

There are no elect prior to salvation.

This would fly directly in the face of Paul's statement in his letter to the Ephesians:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." (Ephesians 1:3-4)​

Not in theology but in value the Calvinist look at John Calvin much like the Mormons do Joseph Smith.

Well I don't know really how Mormons view Joseph Smith; as a prophet, I guess. Calvin was surely not a prophet. He was a man, just like you and me. But he was right... :)

How much love is in a relationship that is forced?

Yeah, this was my question (rhetorical, really) to Grailhunter. The love is quite voluntary, but because of the change that has taken place in our nature (which drives the will), we cannot help but to love, because it becomes our chief desire.

Calvinism is the answer for those who wish to avoid ownership of sin. Jesus made me do it.

Yeah that's... ridiculous.

What was Abraham's knowledge of TULIP?

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

If your doctrine is supported solely upon the teachings of any of these man you are in trouble.

Well, unless that man is Jesus. Right, TEXBOW? :)

Calvinistic beliefs have zero to do with salvation.

Well, believing that what he said is essential for salvation just because he said it is ridiculous, I agree. Like I said previously, "Calvinism Schmalvinism." God's truth is God's truth. Calvin was just right about it, that's all. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[farouk]

My belief basically lines up with Calvinism, and I lament to God over my sins. So I don't wish to avoid ownership of my sins. Though I wish to avoid sins.

Let's keep this going, though. Arminianism is the answer for those who wish to keep their sinful sense of power. The Arminian says.... "God created all things, but He didn't create evil. He didn't want evil to happen, but it happened anyway. Also, God is God, but He isn't 'totally' God over me. I decide my own future."

@Rudometkin I do appreciate the true faith of Job: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13.15), completely bowed before Him, not coming with supposed "rights".

 

[Rudometkin]

@Rudometkin I do appreciate the true faith of Job: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13.15), completely bowed before Him, not coming with supposed "rights".

I was thinking about that verse today. Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.

I completely want to be faithful like this.

 

[farouk]

I was thinking about that verse today. Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.

I completely want to be faithful like this.

The world, Arminian religion, etc., will supply us with plenty of alternative ideas to think about; but if in the spirit of 'looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith' (Hebrews 12.2) we seek to exercise such a patient faith as Job's, then this is God-honoring, indeed. Seems like you and your wife must have some really encouraging conversations and fellowship over the Scriptures.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, but the fact is that they make the free will choice to serve Christ because they are Elect, and because they have been born again of the Spirit. Take a look at this little episode in John 10:

"At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.'”​

Noticed the underlined part. The order there is very, very important. Jesus said, "You do not believe because you are not among my sheep." He did not say, "You are not among my sheep (the ones who His Father has given to Him) because you do not believe." No, He said (again), "You do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

Hey, even to His disciples, Jesus said:

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you." (John 15:16)​

And Paul draws on this very statement of Jesus's when he says:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:4-10)​

This would fly directly in the face of Paul's statement in his letter to the Ephesians:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." (Ephesians 1:3-4)​

Well I don't know really how Mormons view Joseph Smith; as a prophet, I guess. Calvin was surely not a prophet. He was a man, just like you and me. But he was right... :)


Yeah, this was my question (rhetorical, really) to Grailhunter. The love is quite voluntary, but because of the change that has taken place in our nature (which drives the will), we cannot help but to love, because it becomes our chief desire.


Yeah that's... ridiculous.


Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.


Well, unless that man is Jesus. Right, TEXBOW? :)


Well, believing that what he said is essential for salvation just because he said it is ridiculous, I agree. Like I said previously, "Calvinism Schmalvinism." God's truth is God's truth. Calvin was just right about it, that's all. :)

Grace and peace to you.

Again Calvin's failure was that next step of the mind, which was all internal capacities.
I have tried to explain it different ways but it truly is the cliché ....He could not see the forest for the trees.
It is psychosomatic.
People that get sucked in to this belief, have the same problem.
There is an overriding truth in the nature of God and the love of God which makes the idea of God making all of reality a preordained series of events impossible because God is not evil.
There is a logical reason in that it would serve no purpose.
If a person understood the Bible they would know it is absurd.
This where Calvin failed, he could not comprehend the Spirit of God or Christianity....good at sentences though....just not higher thought or reasoning. He effectively just gave up trying to understand what was going on and went to the simplest of answers... God made me do it!

Man hires Calvinist attorney....

 

[Enoch111]

You must think it's absurd for God to have ordained the crucifixion while commanding men to not murder.

What kind of nonsensical statement is this? The predetermination of the crucifixion was for the salvation of the human race. Not a handful of Calvinists.
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:9)

The Bible says that Christ tasted death "for every man". Do you deny what God affirms?

 

[farouk]

John Calvin lived in Geneva in Switzerland.

Good post.

Hi @GodsGrace Geneva is indeed in Switzerland now, but it didn't become part of Switzerland until the 19th century.

The two terms: God's sovereignty and human responsibility, go well together.

 

[Enoch111]

Brace yourself, we are about to be told we simply do not understand Calvinism.

Absolutely correct. We will be told that it is too (a) abstruse, (b) arcane, (c) mysterious, (d) complex, (f) complicated, (g) erudite, (h) inscrutable and (i) unfathomable for the common "unlearned" man.

 

[Rudometkin]

The predetermination of the crucifixion was for the salvation of the human race.

You establish God predetermined sin. Yet He commands men to not sin.

Now what was your problem again?

...why would God command ALL men everywhere to repent and believe, if he has already decided that only some will be saved? DO YOU SEE THE ABSURDITY?

Why don't you be consistent and ask why God commanded men to not sin, if He has already decided they would sin in the crucifixion?

 

[Enoch111]

You establish God predetermined sin.

I did not say that all all. God predetermined THE CRUCIFIXION. Wicked men chose to have Christ crucified by the Romans. God would use these evil men to accomplish His own plans. But He neither compelled them, nor instigated them, nor enabled them to do evil. Big difference. Peter and Stephen make this very clear to us, so I do not see how you are confused.

PETER
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:23)

STEPHEN
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: (Acts 7:52)

 

[Rudometkin]

God predetermined THE CRUCIFIXION.

Can there be a crucifixion without sin?

 

[FHII]

Well, I would say that they may have... and even Grailhunter may have... but they can't accept it, because it's anathema to them.

I don't know, Pinseeker. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around that if it is true. The garbage I am reading in this thread is understandable if they are simply ignorant, but is not acceptable if they have read his work with any kind of thoroughness.

They fail to see that Calvin believed in pious living. For sakes, he was the one who coined the phrase, "grace is not a license to sin!" Yet they make him out to be someone who believes we can sin all we want.

Calvin believed in predestination (with good reason as it is in the Bible) but fail to realize that it was God to know (not us) who is predestinated. So we as a result of not knowing must strive. Yet, they make it out as if there is no sense in striving. They really pervert what Calvin said, and I am not confident they treat the Bible differently.

This is not logical to me, so no... I don't believe they have read his work.

Well, it's not a salvific issue

No, its not. Frankly, I've stated that the truth that God predestinates doesn't help us.

But discussion regarding, or even argument surrounding, this issue should not be allowed to cause or perpetuate any discord among brethren. I'm sure you agree with all this.

I do agree, now look at this thread... Do you see discord among the brethren?

 

[friend of]

Everyone who fears God and does righteousness is accepted by Him