"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.

[ScottA]

It does not have to go into being born again

It is assumed the son was already the fathers child

The father is God in heaven.

The child left.

A non believer has no inheritance from God.

The point I was making, is that Adam was also a son of God, but all who are born of the flesh like Adam are not saved until Christ, and must be born again of the Spirit.

 

[ScottA]

I've read all Paul's writings and they all agree with each other.

Then my comment regarding Paul's letter to the Romans was correct...because he said everything I said elsewhere.

 

[ScottA]

It's your game:

Do you really think I've never thought this through? I just upped the ante in your game. And now you seem to be bluffing which means you either have nothing or you don't want anyone to see your game play out. Stringing Bible texts together completely out of their context isn't going to win your game for you, by the way.

Haven't you ever seen a question answered with a question before? Jesus did it all the time.

You shouldn't have started an Eternal Security thread if you didn't want to engage in a discussion about what atonement is. The premise of the Eternal Security doctrine is predicated on the belief that the entire atonement took place at Calvary. The ancient Hebrew Sanctuary service renders that belief utterly erroneous. There's much more evidence, though. :)

If you want to discount the cross and all that Jesus did, that is your business. But that is what is erroneous, for He is the Author and Finisher: It is finished. He said so...and you have said nothing but speak against Him.

 

[Christ4Me]

None of your verses say a word about losing your salvation.
So, to twist the verses into that false theology,, is not a good idea.

Sorry if I was not clear but I never said they had lost their salvation, but miss out on being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection as those left behind are still saved and thus still His.

Remember now.......Faith does not save you..... but rather God saved you through your faith....if you are born again and not just water baptized.

I agree for why He still abides in former believers because He is faithful 2 Timothy 2:13 but they are still at risk of being denied by Him at the rapture event per 2 Timothy 2:12 & Matthew 7:21-23 & Luke 13:24-30

Never have faith in faith...........do not believe like this......>"as long as i hold unto my faith, i keep myself saved".
see that?
That is faith in Faith, which is self righteousness.
Instead, only have faith in Christ......that He is your Salvation and Eternal Life.

John 14:6

Hopefully the Lord has helped me to show that former believers are still saved even if they do get left behind for not being ready as found abiding in Him & His words per John 15:1-8 & Luke 12:40-49 & an example of this risk to a church in Revelation 2:18-25.

So you are right since our believing in Him is a work of the Father John 6:44 & Matthew 11:25-27 7 John 3:18-21 and so there is no self righteousness to boast in there, when our believing in Jesus Christ is a work of God too. But running that race is not for salvation, but to be accepted by Him 2 Corinthians 5:5-11 as that vessel unto honor in His House, but because of the earnest of the Spirit ( 2 Corinthains 5:5 ) is why the vessels unto dishonor that did not depart from iniquity, are still in His House to be resurrected after the great tribulation. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

 

[Cassandra]

So you are taking what Jesus told the hooker as absolute doctrine for every soul?

Every sin is willful. We do not sin against our own will.

And will you post SCripture that proves your first sentence?

Wow, dude! Could your description of that woman be any worse? That sin is the same level as the ones you and I commit (which we are counseled to ask for forgiveness for daily, by Christ. See Lord's prayer.) Does your OSAS come complete with High Horse-ism? If you think you are any better than she is, you have another think coming.

 

[ScottA]

So what part of the portrayal is fair game in interpreting the teaching of the parable? Only the part that concurs with a man-made doctrine?

You are apparently ranting about your own pet peeve. No one said anything about man made doctrines.

The parable simply doesn't go into spiritual rebirth and the experience of the "other fold which Jesus must also bring" who are born again of the spirit of God. That is because the parable was addressed to Israel, not the gentiles. Your comments are simply out of context. Your game, not mine.

 

[BarneyFife]

There are many factors that result in the anxiety that fuels the tendency of many to resort to belief in Eternal Security. One is actually perpetuated by those on the other side of the argument. And that is that if Eternal Security is not, in fact, the way of God's managing the relationships between believers and Himself, then it must be that people slip into and out of a saving relationship with Christ constantly, due to a ledger that's being kept by heavenly intelligences who have been directed to watch carefully for the chance to catch us off guard and exclude us from the redeemed, while we navigate situations that might take our lives, thus making it possible for us to die without Christ's propitiation intact in/for us. (How's that for a run-on sentence?)

But this is all misguided for at least two reasons:

1. Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), He will be faithful to complete the good work He has begun in us (Philippians 1:6), He is able to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24), He only is our Rock, salvation, and defense, making us unmovable (Psalm 62:2), (the Bible is replete with promises like this);
   
2. If all this be true, how can we believe He would allow us to fall between the cracks of circumstance, forgetting the love He has awakened in us for Him?

2 Peter 3:9 KJV: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This Book we all claim to believe in called the Bible is entirely made up of utterings that contain the ultimate in creative power. We may safely appropriate it to ourselves at all times along the progress of our pilgrim journey here in this earth which is not our home.

Yet the Bible clearly displays the possibility of falling away. The verses and passages that teach this have been quoted thousands of times and summarily rejected as evidence.

Eternal Security is nothing more than misapplied, counterfeit assurance. It doesn't even agree with itself. To which version of it shall we subscribe? The one that says if we become like an infidel, then we were never "saved" to begin with? Or the one that claims that no matter our salacious behavior, if we have accepted Christ we are yet "saved?"

If I have to depend upon my sincerity when I first believed in Christ, I have nothing to assure me, and I must constantly renew/shift my origin of "salvation," hoping I don't die during a lapse of consecration.

And if I am ultimately "saved" as a virtual heathen, I will be sentenced to an eternity of fellowship with a God and people with whom I have nothing in common, for the Bible nowhere teaches that our characters will be changed when we are glorified.

 

[JunChosen]

For crying out loud. If people abandon their faith, they must have had faith to abandon.
.

WRONG! Faith IS a GIFT by grace that is GIVEN from above, unless you BOAST. Ephesians 2:8-9.

What kind of a salvation for God to give then take it away? Is God an Indian-giver?

In fact Jesus said,: I give you eternal life! What do you suppose eternal mean in any language??? If ti's eternal how can anyone lose it? IMPOSSIBLE!

Study your Bible for it is the only Book of truth! It can save you.

To God Be The Glory

 

[GodsGrace]

Poor teaching of any Churches, any era, is accredited to poor Church leadership.
Shortly after the deaths of Christ Jesus’ Apostles, Gentiles were Clerics in the Church’s AND failed as Servants of Christ Jesus to teach His Word TO the masses of People who could Neither READ nor Had Bibles TO read!

1500’s, 1600’s....more people were learning to read. Few Bibles were available...Few could afford Bibles.....
1700’s ....1800’s ....more people were leaning to read. Printing presses were printing Bibles...more could afford to buy a Bible.
The People began reading the Bible for themselves....and Learning what their Corrupt Clerics had been teaching was FALSE.

You should Learn ALL THE WORKS God does IN A MAN WHO testifies of his own word unto the Lord and Receive their SALVATION.......then go Search the Scriptures of ANY PLACE, speaking of GOD “UNDOING” ANY of His Works IN A MAN...

It doesn’t exist!
God does not UNDO a mans Salvation...GOD PROTECTS and KEEPS a man SAVED!

I wanted to say that your history is correct,
However, I was speaking about what the APOSTLES taught, and those to whom THEY taught.
This only goes up to about 300AD...
then your history comes in, with which I agree.

I had already answered that God does not undo salvation of a person...
The person does.

 

[GodsGrace]

There are many factors that result in the anxiety that fuels the tendency of many to resort to belief in Eternal Security. One is actually perpetuated by those on the other side of the argument. And that is that if Eternal Security is not, in fact, the way of God's managing the relationships between believers and Himself, then it must be that people slip into and out of a saving relationship with Christ constantly, due to a ledger that's being kept by heavenly intelligences who have been directed to watch carefully for the chance to catch us off guard and exclude us from the redeemed, while we navigate situations that might take our lives, thus making it possible for us to die without Christ's propitiation intact in/for us. (How's that for a run-on sentence?)

But this is all misguided for at least two reasons:

1. Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), He will be faithful to complete the good work He has begun in us (Philippians 1:6), He is able to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24), He only is our Rock, salvation, and defense, making us unmovable (Psalm 62:2), (the Bible is replete with promises like this);
   
2. If all this be true, how can we believe He would allow us to fall between the cracks of circumstance, forgetting the love He has awakened in us for Him?

2 Peter 3:9 KJV: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This Book we all claim to believe in called the Bible is entirely made up of utterings that contain the ultimate in creative power. We may safely appropriate it to ourselves at all times along the progress of our pilgrim journey here in this earth which is not our home.

Yet the Bible clearly displays the possibility of falling away. The verses and passages that teach this have been quoted thousands of times and summarily rejected as evidence.

Eternal Security is nothing more than misapplied, counterfeit assurance. It doesn't even agree with itself. To which version of it shall we subscribe? The one that says if we become like an infidel, then we were never "saved" to begin with? Or the one that claims that no matter our salacious behavior, if we have accepted Christ we are yet "saved?"

If I have to depend upon my sincerity when I first believed in Christ, I have nothing to assure me, and I must constantly renew/shift my origin of "salvation," hoping I don't die during a lapse of consecration.

And if I am ultimately "saved" as a virtual heathen, I will be sentenced to an eternity of fellowship with a God and people with whom I have nothing in common, for the Bible nowhere teaches that our characters will be changed when we are glorified.

I agree with you.
But I don't know what you mean by a "lapse of consecration". (highlighted above)

We must have some type of security or we would not be able to live the joyful life Jesus said He came to bring us.
I don't believe salvation is so easy to forfeit....
It has to do more with a lifestyle than with a sin.

A person does not go in and out of a revolving door...but is securely on the side where God resides.

UNLESS that person decides to go through the revolving door and place himself on the side where God does NOT reside.

 

[BarneyFife]

Do you understand why there is no verse in the NT, OT, Greek Text, that says that once God is in you, and Christ is in you, that they will leave you. ??
Why is that verse never to be found in God's word?
Because they never will... and that is the reason that the security that is found by being "in Christ", and "One with God", born again, is completed.

See, the religious but lost person, or the deceived "fallen from Grace" carnal believer, who does not understand the eternal redemption that Christ has become for them, when they are born again.......can't understand Salvation, as God's Grace.
They can only think of it according to their carnal mind and that mind always produces this fruit.
"I am in charge of whether i go to heaven or not",
See that carnal mind, and Cross rejection theology?
You'll always find this mind and theology in the minds and mouth's of deceived people who are pretending to be saved, or in those who are "fallen from Grace".

Nice use of misquoting you have there.

Do you understand why there is no verse in the NT, OT, Greek Text, that says that once God is in you, and Christ is in you, that they will leave you. ??

The question contains a false statement, so it's practically impossible to answer. The Bible is full of direct teaching and illustrations that a believer can fall away. No amount of forceful expression can change that. Sorry. :)

 

[BarneyFife]

@BarnyFife

This is warned about saved believers falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 You have to be of the faith in order to fall away from the faith.

Paul warned this will happen in droves in the latter days before Christ comes at His appearing as the Bridegroom. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Paul stated that this iniquity for causing the falling away from the faith, was happening even in his day 2 Thessalonians 2:7

Paul mentioned a damnation to those that fell away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 for believing the lie for why God permit that strong delusion to occur.

Paul exposed that lie by reminding believers of the tradition taught of us in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel.

Paul goes onto the next chapter addressing those that have fallen away from the faith as wicked and unreasonable men not having faith & no longer walking after the tradition taught of us as we are commanded by the Lord to withdraw from them, in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 but we are not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers because they are still His 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

I apply this to all believers that have fallen away from the faith for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again after salvation. This includes that apostate calling of another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, a continual supernatural filling of the Holy Spirit, Toronto's Blessing, Pensacola Outpourings, "slain in the spirit" phenomenon, holy laughter movement, and even the Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he announces the Holy Spirit falling on already saved believers for "supposed" miracles like healing or casting out devils where they fall back in a loss of self control into confusion as Matthew 7:21-27 proves that as that work of iniquity in the body of Christ.

Like the ten virgins that are likened unto the kingdom of heaven, the five were foolish and missed out on the Marriage Supper being out to the market seeking to be filled with oil, for why they were not ready as found abiding in Him, but they were still of His kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 25:1-13

So these are professing believers that have gone astray believing the lie that they can receive the holy Spirit again, but it is not, and yet they are still saved for why we as believers are still to consider them brethren to call them to depart from iniquity so they can be ready for the Bridegroom.

Preaching to the choir? :)

 

[ScottA]

There are many factors that result in the anxiety that fuels the tendency of many to resort to belief in Eternal Security. One is actually perpetuated by those on the other side of the argument. And that is that if Eternal Security is not, in fact, the way of God's managing the relationships between believers and Himself, then it must be that people slip into and out of a saving relationship with Christ constantly, due to a ledger that's being kept by heavenly intelligences who have been directed to watch carefully for the chance to catch us off guard and exclude us from the redeemed, while we navigate situations that might take our lives, thus making it possible for us to die without Christ's propitiation intact in/for us. (How's that for a run-on sentence?)

But this is all misguided for at least two reasons:

1. Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), He will be faithful to complete the good work He has begun in us (Philippians 1:6), He is able to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24), He only is our Rock, salvation, and defense, making us unmovable (Psalm 62:2), (the Bible is replete with promises like this);
   
2. If all this be true, how can we believe He would allow us to fall between the cracks of circumstance, forgetting the love He has awakened in us for Him?

2 Peter 3:9 KJV: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This Book we all claim to believe in called the Bible is entirely made up of utterings that contain the ultimate in creative power. We may safely appropriate it to ourselves at all times along the progress of our pilgrim journey here in this earth which is not our home.

Yet the Bible clearly displays the possibility of falling away. The verses and passages that teach this have been quoted thousands of times and summarily rejected as evidence.

Eternal Security is nothing more than misapplied, counterfeit assurance. It doesn't even agree with itself. To which version of it shall we subscribe? The one that says if we become like an infidel, then we were never "saved" to begin with? Or the one that claims that no matter our salacious behavior, if we have accepted Christ we are yet "saved?"

If I have to depend upon my sincerity when I first believed in Christ, I have nothing to assure me, and I must constantly renew/shift my origin of "salvation," hoping I don't die during a lapse of consecration.

And if I am ultimately "saved" as a virtual heathen, I will be sentenced to an eternity of fellowship with a God and people with whom I have nothing in common, for the Bible nowhere teaches that our characters will be changed when we are glorified.

You are not being clear.

At first in your above post you seem to be for the salvation of eternal life being irrevocable. But then seem to be against the idea later...and then seem to suggest that it is a mystery and a dilemma.

Which do you actually mean to be saying?

 

[GodsGrace]

I know many people. Including yourself.

The sad part is they can not see it themselves. Or they are in denial.


I have studied the Bible for many years.

I don;t look to try to find people who agree with me, or who try to explain a passage of scripture in a way that supports my belief.

I look to the word itself.

Regarding also THE ANNOINTED, please read the above link.
John was not concerned with atheists....but with false teachers infiltrating the church...
and mostly and basically gnostics.

There you go again.

John was talking about people who were in the church who left. And now denied christ

Just take him at his word. Even if he was trying to fight Gnosticism. That has no bearing on what he said about those who deny christ. And were at one time part of the church


Its quite simple.

many people think they are saved, think they are reconciled. Think they are cleansed. As they go to church, and play the game.

But we find some, their faith is not real. They are playing the game, but they have not been born again. These people. Because they have not experienced Gods love, will eventually walk away, and not continue in it. Because since they are not feeling Gods love personally. He becomes a joke to them. Because he is not real.

You lose faith in people when they fail you

I agree with what you've said.

But you haven't replied to Colossians 1:21-23 which states that we will be presented before God holy..
IF WE CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and NOT MOVED AWAY from the gospel of hope.

We must go by what is written in the N.T. by either Jesus or those who knew Him...
Our own ideas are meaningless.

The reason I bring up John and gnosticism is because some will point to him saying that THEY LEFT BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF US...
to confirm the idea that those that leave were never saved to begin with.

The N.T. attests to the fact that one CAN fall away and forfeit their salvation.

 

[BarneyFife]

We must have some type of security or we would not be able to live the joyful life Jesus said He came to bring us.
I don't believe salvation is so easy to forfeit....
It has to do more with a lifestyle than with a sin.

A person does not go in and out of a revolving door...but is securely on the side where God resides.

UNLESS that person decides to go through the revolving door and place himself on the side where God does NOT reside.

Then we would be in agreement. :)

I don't know what you mean by a "lapse of consecration". (highlighted above)

No offense intended but the Interweb is full of dictionaries. :)

 

[BarneyFife]

You are not being clear.

At first in your above post you seem to be for the salvation of eternal life being irrevocable. But then seem to be against the idea later...and then seem to suggest that it is a mystery and a dilemma.

Which do you actually mean to be saying?

All three--it is a paradox. :)
Eternal life is only revocable by ourselves. But it doesn't happen overnight, normally.

 

[GodsGrace]

What did jesus say?

How often I wanted to gather you as a mother hen, But YOU WERE NOT WILLING.

This was referring to the Jews themselves who denied Jesus was the Messiah.

But you cannot deny that the Jews were SUPPOSED to kill Jesus...
He was SUPPOSED to die...
He told the Apostles He was going to die before he did.
Matthew 16:21
Matthew 17:22-23

 

[BarneyFife]

If you want to discount the cross and all that Jesus did, that is your business. But that is what is erroneous, for He is the Author and Finisher: It is finished. He said so...and you have said nothing but speak against Him.

And if you want to erect straw men, that is your business. :)

 

[GodsGrace]

Your part is to say yes. To get on your knees unable to even look up. And cry out for mercy. To become poor (bankrupt) in spirit. To call out on the name of the lord and you will be saved.

The penalty of sin is death Not your good works

If the penalty of murder is to recieved a death penalty. Doing a bunch of works to try to get out of the death penalty is not going to help you any. The ONLY way you can get out of that penalty is to have your penalty redeemed by someone who is not guilty of that crime.

Your works are as filthy rags. God will not accept them and payment for sin.

I agree.
And you should stop bringing up works because I never do.

As to filthy rags...that verse is used so incorrectly -
God DOES want our works (after salvation).
But that's another thread and I won't get into it here.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep faith.

Not works.

Abraham believed God

He also commits some prety grave sins after he was saved by faith

Same with david.

Again with the works...