"Salvation" is the gift of Eternal Life - it's FOREVER.

[Taken]

Taken said;
A believing and following man, that IS NOT SAVED, (has not become converted)......Believes and CONTINUES TO SIN....and continually asks for forgiveness.

Thank you for replying.
Do you base discipleship or running that race as the means for obtaining salvation? If so, then how can anyone say Jesus is our Savior in sharing the Good News? I am asking for clarity to understand your position on the issue.

Clarity is needed again. Can you give an example between the two?

Believing is one thing. <—- still deciding to continue believing (endure) or believe in something else. (Fall away) <— believe at time of physical death...saved at physical death.

Conversion is another thing. <—- Confession heartfelt belief. Agreeing to receive Salvation, “before” physical death. <—- Permanent; kept in belief by power of God, can never fall away, with God Forever.

Taken said;
A SAVED man (WHO HAS BECOME CONVERTED), His SINS are Forgiven......he sins NO MORE.
(And before you wonder if that means...sinless...or without sin...I am saying no such thing......I am expressly saying....HIS SINS ARE FORGIVEN and Covered........and thereafter he can not SIN.......ANY MORE.....).

The apostle John was addressing believers that believed that sin was no longer sin to them which was the reason why the apostle John was correcting them by comparing their walk with Jesus in how He did not walk in darkness, but in the light. 1 John 1:3-10

So that is why I was asking for clarification regarding that last quote.

I am of the belief, that a man SINS only against God...
And ONLY God forgives sin.
Our sin begins at our natural birth, born in sin.
Our sins increase, via our flesh and our souls.
Then people begin to hear about the Lord God,
Begin deciding to keep hearing, or not.
Begin deciding to believe or not.
Decide to become Saved (Converted) or not.
Once a man becomes Converted, (the conversion...is Gods forgiveness, of disbelief, flesh, souls sins against God, and the mans trespasses against men...all forgiven.)
Those sins are Forgiven sins, and covered by God indwelling Light (HS) which enters the man. Sins no longer seen or remembered by God
Man- saved soul (is restored) Pss 23:3
new heart, Gods seed, Born again spirit....Gods Spirit in the man,
Keeps the man from ever again sinning against God...ie man sins no more
1 John 3:9 That man IS saved, (While still alive in his flesh)
Once and forever, and Forever With God ie OSAS.

Thereafter, that man can, likely will, trespass against other men, and have men trespass against him. (It’s happens, because men do not Know all things, therefore can not avoid all things.)
The intent is...the man has the HS IN him, guiding him to “think” with his Heart (that God is directing with His Word, with His internal Power IN us), OVER the “thoughts” of the mans Carnal Mind (heart thoughts, superseding, minds thoughts)....since we still have a carnal mind, and it can be devious.
Men between men trespassing against eachother, forgive eachother....( or by Laws, can duke it out in courts).
Scripture teaches about trespassing between men.

The Behaviors between and among men, are laid out in examples in the OT and the NT...called PRECEPTS. God introduced precepts, to Moses, along with Statutes, Laws, Precepts... Neh. 9:14

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I already answered earlier that I was saved, now at this moment. What is it you are looking for?

A bit of patience.
Did you go forward to an altar call?

 

[Christ4Me]

John said these people never knew God

why do you resist

Because I believe you are misunderstanding John since how you apply his words to mean goes against the other truth in scripture.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

I read that it is possible for a believer not to love his brother or else why give the commandment to do that? Yet we read this;

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

So I apply "not of God" as referring to not abiding in Him as manifested by their works.

Now to your comment;

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

When in context from whatever verse you are applying to your comment, I read here how those born of God keeps themselves by not sinning for how we will know who are of God as far as abiding in Him in keeping himself. It is for believers to know the difference between those who profess Him from those who live in wickedness showing to believers whom are of God as abiding in Him from those that are not so as to not to follow them.

That is all I see John doing is helping believers know whom to have fellowship with from those that are not so as to not to follow after them that err.

 

[ScottA]

How was he the son if he was not saved?

Just asking

The parable tells of a father who had two sons. The parable may portray the Father, but it is just a portrayal.

 

[Renniks]

Yep

which means they were never saved christ was no use to the

as a dog they returned to their
Vomit. Because they remained dogs. Winces in sheeps clothing not believers just Make believers

Lol you just contradicted yourself.
Yep, meaning they were genuinely saved then you said they weren't.

 

[Renniks]

A bit of patience.
Did you go forward to an altar call?

I did that once when I was ten. But I was truly saved at 19 after God convicted me.

 

[Christ4Me]

Taken said;
A believing and following man, that IS NOT SAVED, (has not become converted)......Believes and CONTINUES TO SIN....and continually asks for forgiveness.

Believing is one thing. <—- still deciding to continue believing (endure) or believe in something else. (Fall away) <— believe at time of physical death...saved at physical death.

Conversion is another thing. <—- Confession heartfelt belief. Agreeing to receive Salvation, “before” physical death. <—- Permanent; kept in belief by power of God, can never fall away, with God Forever.

This is warned about saved believers falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 You have to be of the faith in order to fall away from the faith.

Paul warned this will happen in droves in the latter days before Christ comes at His appearing as the Bridegroom. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Paul stated that this iniquity for causing the falling away from the faith, was happening even in his day 2 Thessalonians 2:7

Paul mentioned a damnation to those that fell away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 for believing the lie for why God permit that strong delusion to occur.

Paul exposed that lie by reminding believers of the tradition taught of us in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel.

Paul goes onto the next chapter addressing those that have fallen away from the faith as wicked and unreasonable men not having faith & no longer walking after the tradition taught of us as we are commanded by the Lord to withdraw from them, in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 but we are not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers because they are still His 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

I apply this to all believers that have fallen away from the faith for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again after salvation. This includes that apostate calling of another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, a continual supernatural filling of the Holy Spirit, Toronto's Blessing, Pensacola Outpourings, "slain in the spirit" phenomenon, holy laughter movement, and even the Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he announces the Holy Spirit falling on already saved believers for "supposed" miracles like healing or casting out devils where they fall back in a loss of self control into confusion as Matthew 7:21-27 proves that as that work of iniquity in the body of Christ.

Like the ten virgins that are likened unto the kingdom of heaven, the five were foolish and missed out on the Marriage Supper being out to the market seeking to be filled with oil, for why they were not ready as found abiding in Him, but they were still of His kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 25:1-13

So these are professing believers that have gone astray believing the lie that they can receive the holy Spirit again, but it is not, and yet they are still saved for why we as believers are still to consider them brethren to call them to depart from iniquity so they can be ready for the Bridegroom.

 

[Renniks]

So these are professing believers that have gone astray believing the lie that they can receive the holy Spirit again, but it is not, and yet they are still saved for why we as believers are still to consider them brethren to call them to depart from iniquity so they can be ready for the Bridegroom.

Just curious here...if they are believers as you say but only mistaken in thier theology, wouldn't they already be ready for Christ to return?

 

[BarneyFife]

You're playing games. I'm not.

It's your game:

(I'm not trying to be smart, but to help you think it through. )

Do you really think I've never thought this through? I just upped the ante in your game. And now you seem to be bluffing which means you either have nothing or you don't want anyone to see your game play out. Stringing Bible texts together completely out of their context isn't going to win your game for you, by the way.

Even so, you never answered.

Haven't you ever seen a question answered with a question before? Jesus did it all the time.

You shouldn't have started an Eternal Security thread if you didn't want to engage in a discussion about what atonement is. The premise of the Eternal Security doctrine is predicated on the belief that the entire atonement took place at Calvary. The ancient Hebrew Sanctuary service renders that belief utterly erroneous. There's much more evidence, though. :)

 

[BarneyFife]

The parable tells of a father who had two sons. The parable may portray the Father, but it is just a portrayal.

So what part of the portrayal is fair game in interpreting the teaching of the parable? Only the part that concurs with a man-made doctrine?

 

[ScottA]

Still do not understand.

He was the son, He left. He was still the son

When he returned, he was still the son.

The parable is about two things

The son who leaves still is the fathers son

The pride of the son who stayed and his anger against the fathers love for the son who left. Which never faded.

I was a prodigal son, I left. And for 5 years. i suffered as the prodigal son did. When I came back, like him, I did not think i was worthy, I hid in the back, I was afraid of what God would think, but in the end, I felt just like the son, God never left me, I left him, I was still his son throughout it all.

Still the son, but not reborn of the Spirit.

 

[BarneyFife]

Just curious here...if they are believers as you say but only mistaken in thier theology, wouldn't they already be ready for Christ to return?

Wouldn't that depend on how mistaken they were in their theology? Theology (the knowledge of God), in its most basic form is, after all, exactly what is required for a person to have eternal life, according to John 17:3. :)

 

[Renniks]

Wouldn't that depend on how mistaken they were in their theology? Theology (the knowledge of God), in its most basic form is, after all, exactly what is required for a person to have eternal life, according to John 17:3. :)

I agree that there's a basic theology we have to understand. But he seems to be saying they are genuine Christians but not going to be accepted at Christ's return.

 

[Taken]

I did that once when I was ten. But I was truly saved at 19 after God convicted me.

Okay thanks.
Curious why at 10? Make parents happy? Friends were doing the same?
And At 19 would you say hearts desire?

 

[BarneyFife]

Absolutely Peter was CONVERTED....AFTER Jesus returned to Heaven.

I meant that it would have been impossible for Peter to have walked with Jesus (in the manner in which he did) for 3 years without having a conversion experience during that 3 year period, and not after Christ's ascension.

A man WHO REMAINS in belief to the end of his physical LIFE, by Gods POWER? (And can NEVER fall away, Kept BY Gods POWER)? OSAS!

Absolutely agree! (except for the part in parentheses and the OSAS bit).

I'm sorry but I don't have time to respond to your entire post. Not because I have no counterpoint, but because:

I know this topic has been beaten like a dead horse on this forum and lots of people have generated volumes of support for it, but the Bible just doesn't teach that God binds people in their relationships with Him and revokes their free will. I recognize that some people wish it did so badly or have been so thoroughly indoctrinated with it that they believe it does, but it just isn't true. And no amount of enthusiasm and/or emphatic expression is going to change that. The whole counsel of God just doesn't support it.

Granted, I don't believe the doctrine will cause people to be lost in most cases, but I can't conscientiously stand by and say nothing when I believe that it will, in fact, be the ruin of some precious souls for whom Christ died. I also believe that some of those on the other side of the argument are at risk of succumbing to legalism. That's why I have a line in my signature warning against that. The devil doesn't care which ditch we fall into, as long as we get off the narrow way. :)

 

[BarneyFife]

I agree that there's a basic theology we have to understand. But he seems to be saying they are genuine Christians but not going to be accepted at Christ's return.

Gotcha. :)

 

[Christ4Me]

Just curious here...if they are believers as you say but only mistaken in thier theology, wouldn't they already be ready for Christ to return?

No, because that is what running that race is all about, to look to Him daily for help in laying aside every weight & sin ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ) to be accepted by Him to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 thus avoiding becoming a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27

If you consider the purpose for why the church is to excommunicate to maintain fellowship in eating & drinking with in sincerity & in truth, 1 Corinthians 5:8-11 , does 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 not symbolize what Christ will do for the unrepentant saints where they will be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation for when the devil will wage war on the saints? Revelation 2:18-25 Revelation 13:7-15

 

[Behold]

Granted, I don't believe the doctrine will cause people to be lost .

Do you understand why there is no verse in the NT, OT, Greek Text, that says that once God is in you, and Christ is in you, that they will leave you. ??
Why is that verse never to be found in God's word?
Because they never will... and that is the reason that the security that is found by being "in Christ", and "One with God", born again, is completed.

See, the religious but lost person, or the deceived "fallen from Grace" carnal believer, who does not understand the eternal redemption that Christ has become for them, when they are born again.......can't understand Salvation, as God's Grace.
They can only think of it according to their carnal mind and that mind always produces this fruit.
"I am in charge of whether i go to heaven or not",
See that carnal mind, and Cross rejection theology?
You'll always find this mind and theology in the minds and mouth's of deceived people who are pretending to be saved, or in those who are "fallen from Grace".

 

[Christ4Me]

I agree that there's a basic theology we have to understand. But he seems to be saying they are genuine Christians but not going to be accepted at Christ's return.

@BarnyFife

This is warned about saved believers falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 You have to be of the faith in order to fall away from the faith.

Paul warned this will happen in droves in the latter days before Christ comes at His appearing as the Bridegroom. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Paul stated that this iniquity for causing the falling away from the faith, was happening even in his day 2 Thessalonians 2:7

Paul mentioned a damnation to those that fell away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 for believing the lie for why God permit that strong delusion to occur.

Paul exposed that lie by reminding believers of the tradition taught of us in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel.

Paul goes onto the next chapter addressing those that have fallen away from the faith as wicked and unreasonable men not having faith & no longer walking after the tradition taught of us as we are commanded by the Lord to withdraw from them, in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 but we are not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers because they are still His 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

I apply this to all believers that have fallen away from the faith for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again after salvation. This includes that apostate calling of another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, a continual supernatural filling of the Holy Spirit, Toronto's Blessing, Pensacola Outpourings, "slain in the spirit" phenomenon, holy laughter movement, and even the Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where he announces the Holy Spirit falling on already saved believers for "supposed" miracles like healing or casting out devils where they fall back in a loss of self control into confusion as Matthew 7:21-27 proves that as that work of iniquity in the body of Christ.

Like the ten virgins that are likened unto the kingdom of heaven, the five were foolish and missed out on the Marriage Supper being out to the market seeking to be filled with oil, for why they were not ready as found abiding in Him, but they were still of His kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 25:1-13

So these are professing believers that have gone astray believing the lie that they can receive the holy Spirit again, but it is not, and yet they are still saved for why we as believers are still to consider them brethren to call them to depart from iniquity so they can be ready for the Bridegroom.

 

[Behold]

@BarnyFife

This is warned about saved believers falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1-2
Paul exposed that lie by reminding believers of the tradition taught of us in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 .

None of your verses say a word about losing your salvation.
So, to twist the verses into that false theology,, is not a good idea.

Remember now.......Faith does not save you..... but rather God saved you through your faith....if you are born again and not just water baptized.

Never have faith in faith...........do not believe like this......>"as long as i hold unto my faith, i keep myself saved".
see that?
That is faith in Faith, which is self righteousness.
Instead, only have faith in Christ......that He is your Salvation and Eternal Life.

John 14:6