Robots and Will Worshipers
- Thread starter Rudometkin
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Thanks for your comment. Please let me know if my assessment of your view is fair.
I know you believe that God wanted it this way. But what of capability? You teach that God isn't capable of having absolute control over a loving relationship. If He wanted a loving relationship where He had all power, He couldn't have it. Because according to reality, man must have power to make a decision for himself in order for a loving relationship to be possible.
Is that correct? Also, where do you get your definition of 'Love'? Is it from God's Word?
@Rudometkin A reading of passages such as Ephesians 2 shows that we really do depend on the wondrous intervention of God's grace; otherwise we will be led astray by our own biases, sin and rebellious tendencies.
Yeah, that would be a whole new thread (and not really "new)
Yes! I have discovered something interesting from this thread. It raises an issue of submission.
An underlying question of this thread is, what ultimately causes these biases, sins and rebellious tendencies?
I have seen that if the answer is God, then a storm brews and chaos ensues. People wouldn't worship Him if they knew He did this. But He says He does it, and they explain it away.
@Rudometkin It's related to the issues of obedience ('obedience unto death, even the death of the cross' - Philippians 2; 'the obedience of faith'/'obedience to the faith' - Romans ch. 1; ch. 16).
That's a great idea. Someone can start a new thread on that subject, and perhaps new ideas will be shared. (New for some people)
The teaching of men called “Freewill” is odious to me. It breeds arrogance and causes men to do great harm to themselves.
If God healed your blindness so you could even see He existed, then you claim you chose Him, then you judge and condemn another blind man for choosing to be blind whereas you chose to see, the light you think you have is darkness.
Don’t judge and condemn an unbeliever before the time. Leave that to God. And stop saying they will be tortured forever as if they have eternal life in them! The second death is death, not eternal life.
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@farouk
I notice you often speak of man's responsibility when you speak of God's sovereignty.
This is a great idea, because we shouldn't let man's responsibility slip away and be forgotten when we speak of Sovereignty.
People often think if God caused a man to do something, then the man can't be responsible. But man is held responsible precisely because God is Sovereign.
I notice you often speak of man's responsibility when you speak of God's sovereignty.
This is a great idea, because we shouldn't let man's responsibility slip away and be forgotten when we speak of Sovereignty.
People often think if God caused a man to do something, then the man can't be responsible. But man is held responsible precisely because God is Sovereign.
@Rudometkin We have both aspects for example in John 6.37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
Wonderful verse!
I see our sins being forgiven through Jesus in this verse, so we specifically are not held responsible for our sins.
@Rudometkin There are more verses in John 6 in a similar vein; vv. 63-69 say:
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."
What kind of God gives me grace and forgiveness when I sin, and then cruelly causes me to sin again?
Sovereign Merciful God.
Call Him cruel if you will. It has been established He causes everything.
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cc @Renniks
How about this verse?
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James 1.14)
Why do you reject what God says about Himself?
1 Kings 22:23
So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Where sin increases in the believer, grace increases all the more. (Romans 5:20)
Are you searching for God's mercy in the causation of sin? The act of punishing sinners in hell isn't merciful to the sinners, but God is still a merciful God.
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Same old Calvinist flavored view of verses that don't say God causes sin.
Everyone is drawn away by his own lust, not by God, who tempts no one.
You seem to be saying my sin glorifies God because he can then give me more grace.
Paul says the opposite. Should we sin so that grace may increase? No... a thousand times no!
Perhaps further reading comprehension is needed for understanding.
1 Kings 22:23
So now the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.
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