Secure Eternal Salvation

[Eternally Grateful]

grace enables us to be holy and just and righteous it does not do it for us!
We have to choose (volition) to love and serve God

No grace is given because you are not holy and just and righteous.

If you were. You would not need Grace, You would have earned your way.

you cannot simply expect grace to make you sober and not a drunkard
You have free will
Must chose my will be done or Thy will be done
Choose God’s will and grace supports us enables us
Because of original sin and fallen human nature we need Gods help
Gods grace

see below

You need to study up what unmerited favor (grace) means.

It is not power to work. It is favor given to the one who has not earned it.

Adam and Eve did not need grace until after the fall. Then they required grace. Not to do good. But to be able to walk with God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All the same faith works sacraments in Christ thru grace

if it is of grace it is no longer of works. otherwise grace is n longer grace.

There were no sacraments in the OT. You have people getting saved different ways

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So you’re sins are not really forgiven???

Mine are. It's whether or not your sins are forgiven that is in doubt here. For you believe that being made righteous happens as a debt owed for work completed, instead of being made righteous as a free gift for the asking. This divide in theology is the very reason there are Catholics and there are those who protest the heretical teachings of the Catholic church.

 

[Enoch111]

I'm not sure they understand the body of Christ. At Communion, they think it's a wafer.

The Catholic church does not use the word "Communion". Rather they use the word "Eucharist" and "Mass". This is regarded as an ACTUAL bloodless sacrifice of Christ on an altar by a priest. This is a literal re-sacrificing of Christ.

"...In truth, the Eucharist performs at once two functions: that of a sacrament and that of a sacrifice. Though the inseparableness of the two is most clearly seen in the fact that the consecrating sacrificial powers of the priest coincide, and consequently that the sacrament is produced only in and through the Mass, the real difference between them is shown in that the sacrament is intended privately for the sanctification of the soul, whereas the sacrifice serves primarily to glorify God by adoration, thanksgiving, prayer, and expiation. The recipient of the one is God, who receives the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son; of the other, man, who receives the sacrament for his own good. Furthermore, the unbloody Sacrifice of the Eucharistic Christ is in its nature a transient action, while the Sacrament of the Altar continues as something permanent after the sacrifice, and can even be preserved in monstrance and ciborium..."
New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia -- "Sacrifice of the Mass"

This is not the same as the Lord's Supper or Holy Communion.

 

[theefaith]

The Catholic church does not use the word "Communion". Rather they use the word "Eucharist" and "Mass". This is regarded as an ACTUAL bloodless sacrifice of Christ on an altar by a priest. This is a literal re-sacrificing of Christ.

we do call it holy communion
No Christ is NOT re-sacrificed!
There is only one sacrifice of Christ!
Once for all!
Once bloody on the cross and forever it is offered not re-sacrificed does not bleed and die
Christ is high priest so there must be low priests of the same ministerial order
Christ eternal priest so His sacrifice is also eternal
Thou art a priest forever
And a priest offers sacrifice


"...In truth, the Eucharist performs at once two functions: that of a sacrament and that of a sacrifice. Though the inseparableness of the two is most clearly seen in the fact that the consecrating sacrificial powers of the priest coincide, and consequently that the sacrament is produced only in and through the Mass, the real difference between them is shown in that the sacrament is intended privately for the sanctification of the soul, whereas the sacrifice serves primarily to glorify God by adoration, thanksgiving, prayer, and expiation. The recipient of the one is God, who receives the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son; of the other, man, who receives the sacrament for his own good. Furthermore, the unbloody Sacrifice of the Eucharistic Christ is in its nature a transient action, while the Sacrament of the Altar continues as something permanent after the sacrifice, and can even be preserved in monstrance and ciborium..."
New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia -- "Sacrifice of the Mass"

This is not the same as the Lord's Supper or Holy Communion.

no it’s not your phony communion

it’s the whole sacrifice of Christ from the the last supper to His death on the cross

it is His real presence
This is my body!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

no it’s not your phony communion

it’s the whole sacrifice of Christ from the the last supper to His death on the cross

it is His real presence
This is my body!

Jesus rose 2000 years ago.

His body is no longer dead.. not is it sacrificed. As he said, it is finished

 

[theefaith]

Jesus rose 2000 years ago.

His body is no longer dead.. not is it sacrificed. As he said, it is finished

Yes He is risen but he is a priest forever! His sacrifice is forever!

it is finished? What is the it?

The cup refers to the Passover
The sacrifice prefigured the sacrifice of Christ
Christ was celebrating the Passover and changing it into the new covenant Passover in his own body and blood
Began in the last supper with the psalm then to the garden and ended with his death in the cross with the words commanded to be said at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice by the high priest “IT IS FINISHED”!!!


Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

pure offering is and unbloody sacrifice or a clean oblation

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes He is risen but he is a priest forever! His sacrifice is forever!

it is finished? What is the it?

In the greek, the word means to bring to an end, or to be accomplished, completed. In the time of Jesus, it also was used as a mark on a debt, which means "paid in full"

Jesus completed the plan of salvation. He accomplished the plan God started before time began. And as for as our sin debt, He "paid in full" as the apostle poaul said in col 2. He has taken the certificate of debt that was against us, contrary to us, and nailed it to the cross.

No more can sin condemn a person. Because the sin debt is paid in full

The cup refers to the Passover
The sacrifice prefigured the sacrifice of Christ
Christ was celebrating the Passover and changing it into the new covenant Passover in his own body and blood
Began in the last supper with the psalm then to the garden and ended with his death in the cross with the words commanded to be said at the consummation of the Passover sacrifice by the high priest “IT IS FINISHED”!!!


Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

pure offering is and unbloody sacrifice or a clean oblation

Yes. But the passover is not for us, our cup refers to the cross. the shed blood and broken body of Jesus, which was as the serpent was lifted by moses. Lifted on the cross so we who believe will never die, but have eternal life.

People keep taking this cup and bread (be it the eucharist or the lords supper) often, as commanded. but then claim it is not just a symbol, or NT ceremony that looks back, but is athe saving blood and body of jesus himself.

well, it does not give the one who eats it what Jesus promised. It must not be it.

as Jesus said, do not look for food which PERISHES (meaning you have to eat continually because the food dies and you need to retake it to stay alive) but the food which ENDURES forever (will not die. meaning one does not have to keep eating to remain alive because the power is everlasting) which he (christ) will give you.

whoever eats this bread will

never die, Live forever. Has eternal life. Has passed from death to life and will be risen (not delivered) on the last day.

The eucharist given at mass does not promise these things.

that should be a red flag to people who partake in it.

 

[farouk]

Jesus rose 2000 years ago.

His body is no longer dead.. not is it sacrificed. As he said, it is finished

John 19.30 and what it means are really pivotal, right?

 

[theefaith]

In the greek, the word means to bring to an end, or to be accomplished, completed. In the time of Jesus, it also was used as a mark on a debt, which means "paid in full"

Jesus completed the plan of salvation. He accomplished the plan God started before time began. And as for as our sin debt, He "paid in full" as the apostle poaul said in col 2. He has taken the certificate of debt that was against us, contrary to us, and nailed it to the cross.

No more can sin condemn a person. Because the sin debt is paid in full



Yes. But the passover is not for us, our cup refers to the cross. the shed blood and broken body of Jesus, which was as the serpent was lifted by moses. Lifted on the cross so we who believe will never die, but have eternal life.

People keep taking this cup and bread (be it the eucharist or the lords supper) often, as commanded. but then claim it is not just a symbol, or NT ceremony that looks back, but is athe saving blood and body of jesus himself.

well, it does not give the one who eats it what Jesus promised. It must not be it.

as Jesus said, do not look for food which PERISHES (meaning you have to eat continually because the food dies and you need to retake it to stay alive) but the food which ENDURES forever (will not die. meaning one does not have to keep eating to remain alive because the power is everlasting) which he (christ) will give you.

whoever eats this bread will

never die, Live forever. Has eternal life. Has passed from death to life and will be risen (not delivered) on the last day.

The eucharist given at mass does not promise these things.

that should be a red flag to people who partake in it.

only the mass and the Eucharist can do this! Jn 6

 

[Eternally Grateful]

only the mass and the Eucharist can do this! Jn 6

John 6 talks about eating a food which endures to eternal life. Which one can eat and not die. They will live forever

Sorry bud, but the mass does not promise this, It is no better than the manna supplied by God. People eat it and still die.. No assurance of salvation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Catholic church does not use the word "Communion". Rather they use the word "Eucharist" and "Mass". This is regarded as an ACTUAL bloodless sacrifice of Christ on an altar by a priest.
This is a literal re-sacrificing of Christ.

"...In truth, the Eucharist performs at once two functions: that of a sacrament and that of a sacrifice. Though the inseparableness of the two is most clearly seen in the fact that the consecrating sacrificial powers of the priest coincide, and consequently that the sacrament is produced only in and through the Mass, the real difference between them is shown in that the sacrament is intended privately for the sanctification of the soul, whereas the sacrifice serves primarily to glorify God by adoration, thanksgiving, prayer, and expiation. The recipient of the one is God, who receives the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son; of the other, man, who receives the sacrament for his own good. Furthermore, the unbloody Sacrifice of the Eucharistic Christ is in its nature a transient action, while the Sacrament of the Altar continues as something permanent after the sacrifice, and can even be preserved in monstrance and ciborium..."
New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia -- "Sacrifice of the Mass"

This is not the same as the Lord's Supper or Holy Communion.

Your claim above ib RED uis a complete and total falsehood.
The sacrifice of the Mass is NOT a "re-sacrifice" of Christ - but a Re-Presentation of His Sacrifice on Calvary. You're either ignorant about whatr we teach or you're totally dishonest.
I think it's a little of BOTH . . .

We Catholics believe as the Bible teaches - that His Sacrifice is ETERNAL. Hr died once for all (Rom. 6:10) - in OUR time.
However, He was crucufued before the foundati0pons of the world (Rev. 13:8) and ALWAYS lives to make intercession for us (Heeb/ 7:25).

At each mass - we are brought to Calbvary to commemorat His ONE Sacrigfice - His ETERNAL Sacrifice . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

John 6 talks about eating a food which endures to eternal life. Which one can eat and not die. They will live forever
Sorry bud, but the mass does not promise this, It is no better than the manna supplied by God. People eat it and still die.. No assurance of salvation.

That's about the most ignorant thing I've read on this thread.
The Eternal life promised in John 6 is NOT about your corruptible flesh.

 

[Enoch111]

Your claim above ib RED uis a complete and total falsehood. The sacrifice of the Mass is NOT a "re-sacrifice" of Christ - but a Re-Presentation of His Sacrifice on Calvary. You're either ignorant about whatr we teach or you're totally dishonest.

Well let's see if this a a falsehood or whether the Catholic church really teaches this. So we will go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. the sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."185 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."186

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:...

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."188

Any reasonable person reading the above objectively will rightly conclude that Christ is indeed being RE-SACRIFICED in the Eucharist. So the one who is being dishonest is you. The above is straight from the horse's mouth -- "THE VICTIM IS ONE AND THE SAME". [BTW Christ was NOT a victim]

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well let's see if this a a falsehood or whether the Catholic church really teaches this. So we will go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. the sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."185 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."186

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it RE-PRESENTS (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, BECAUSE IT IS ITS MEMORIAL and because it applies its fruit:...

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner."188

Any reasonable person reading the above objectively will rightly conclude that Christ is indeed being RE-SACRIFICED in the Eucharist. So the one who is being dishonest is you. The above is straight from the horse's mouth -- "THE VICTIM IS ONE AND THE SAME". [BTW Christ was NOT a victim]

As i educated you in my last post - the answer is in Paragraph 1366 of the Catechism above for any HONEST person to read.
It is a RE-PRESENTATION of Christ's once for all Sacrifice - NOT a "Re-Sacrifice".

He's not being killed againb.
We are memoriualizing Hisa sacrifice - as HE commended (Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, 1 Cor. 11:23–25)

Thank you, though, for illustrating your utter dishonesty and disdaoin for the truth.

 

[theefaith]

Your claim above ib RED uis a complete and total falsehood.
The sacrifice of the Mass is NOT a "re-sacrifice" of Christ - but a Re-Presentation of His Sacrifice on Calvary. You're either ignorant about whatr we teach or you're totally dishonest.
I think it's a little of BOTH . . .

We Catholics believe as the Bible teaches - that His Sacrifice is ETERNAL. Hr died once for all (Rom. 6:10) - in OUR time.
However, He was crucufued before the foundati0pons of the world (Rev. 13:8) and ALWAYS lives to make intercession for us (Heeb/ 7:25).

At each mass - we are brought to Calbvary to commemorat His ONE Sacrigfice - His ETERNAL Sacrifice . . .

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

and a priest offers sacrifice

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's about the most ignorant thing I've read on this thread.
The Eternal life promised in John 6 is NOT about your corruptible flesh.

I never said it was

and considering you and I have had this conversation numerous times. It just goes to prove you only hear what you want to hear.

Eternal life in John 6 is about spiritual life. Whoever eats will not die.

You continually eat over and over this bread. Yet you can still die.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

and a priest offers sacrifice

Yep

He offered himself once

Not over and over like the levitical priesthood.

 

[theefaith]

I never said it was

and considering you and I have had this conversation numerous times. It just goes to prove you only hear what you want to hear.

Eternal life in John 6 is about spiritual life. Whoever eats will not die.

You continually eat over and over this bread. Yet you can still die.

which death
Physical death or spiritual death?

and when he say the flesh is week he is referring to fallen human nature not His body, his body crucified is our salvation

we all die physically so it must refer to spiritual death and life

And eternal life of grace

 

[theefaith]

Yep

He offered himself once

Not over and over like the levitical priesthood.

no it’s not the levitical priesthood nor the royal priesthood but the priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek and his priesthood and sacrifice is eternal, he offered it once bloody on the cross but for all eternity he continues to offer it as high priest and his low priests also offer it as a pure offering, and unbloody sacrifice, a clean oblation

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.