How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

I realise I may have missed something you've been saying without spelling it out - because you think it's obvious, and therefore I should not only recognise it, but believe it - while I have been doing the very same by quoting from Romans 9.

The something I may have missed, is the reason for, or meaning of, your allusions to 'the majority of Judah'. Do you expect 'the majority of Judah' to turn to the Lord, like some believers do? If so, do you any Bible verses to support that idea?

As you have gathered, I hope, my reading of the Old Testament frequently refers to 'a remnant', or 'a very small remnant', both after the exile and after the Messiah has come. I can never find verses to support a massive acknowledgement of the truth amongst Jacob's descendants (should we know who they are, these days).

Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

In reply to the report in Wikipedia, you said:

Such ideas as those defy common sense, and certainly don't address God's Word about the return of a portion of Israel to the holy lands of promise.

I have never once implied or suggested that no portion of Israel will return to the land given to Abraham. But, the verses you are using to support that return are dislocated from their fulfilment, and, the doctrine that it has not already happened in a measure, is a new one. Historic Christianity knew that the return had begun centuries ago.

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Andrew, John and Nathaniel are all examples of Israelites who were watching for Messiah in the geographical region where He was supposed to appear.

Please acknowledge that these had returned after the exile, and they had stayed there for four hundred years?

veteran:
Just when... did God do that with Judah??

dragonfly
Okay. Could we approach this from a different angle, please?

We know that there were no Gentiles saved until Cornelius (Acts 10). We also know this:

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Were there any local Jews living in Jerusalem?

When the Jews who had travelled for Passover and stayed until Pentecost went home (taking the gospel with them), were there members of the tribe of Judah (Jews), also left behind in Jerusalem and the surrounding land?

Were any other tribes represented in the local population?

Why did Jesus tell the disciples to preach only to the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel'?

Was He including members of Judah in that call, or, was Judah excluded from the gospel at that time?

If there were no members of Judah included, then what was the genetic make-up of the crowds that followed Jesus?

The genealogy given by gospels - Luke 3:33, and Matthew 1:3 specifically name Judah. How did they get there?

So, in view of the genetic evidence that 'Jews' have continued in that region, I would still like answers about how Judah got there in time for Jesus to be born, if as you say, they haven't returned yet. Please answer now?


You also asked:

Has a time been reached today when Israel's iniquity is looked for and not found? What's that about? It's about God's future promise to forgive Israel and disregard their sins.

This is where the significance of Paul's references to 'Israel' in Romans 9:6, 7 must be accommodated.

I replied:

So what do you think Paul was talking about in Romans 9:4, when as a Christian of the tribe of Benjamin, he wrote this:

'Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption...'?

Has the man who wrote: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God' (Romans 8:15) stopped being 'of Israel', as he refers to them in Romans 9:6b For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel'.

Isn't he speaking about Israelite believers: those who are 'Israel', who are 'of Israel', as much as those who are not 'Israel' who are of Israel'?

(I have added the emphases when quoting the above.) Please answser these questions, too?


Many years ago I read 'Appointment in Jerusalem' by Derek Prince, at the end of which there is some teaching on the return of Christ. As a young Christian, not having been brought up with the written word at home, I made a mental note to check up on his claims, as I got to know the Bible better. This I did not find easy to do. The things I read there did not wholly support his suppositions. This is almost worse than finding none of them were true, because much revision of understanding has been done as I've gone on with the Lord, trying to see the bigger picture from His point of view.


I see that I did not specifically address your following questions directly in detail, because I've been covering the same ground in other of my comments and questions, assuming you would see it. Now, I will answer these two questions:

'Has a time been reached today when Israel's iniquity is looked for and not found? What's that about?'

I would say it's about Isaiah 59:20, to which I've alluded at least twice. This is the verse which Paul quoted in Romans 11:26 - or, nearly quoted. I'll be interested to hear Retrobyter's take on the Hebrew, because it could be that the translation into English in Isaiah is faulty, and Paul's quotation of it is correct. Isaiah was writing before Jeremiah, prophesying both the exile and the Messiah.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear. 3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. 4 None calleth for justice, nor [any] pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. 5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper. 6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works [are] works of iniquity, and the act of violence [is] in their hands. 7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: [Rom 3:15] their thoughts [are] thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction [are] in their paths. 8 The way of peace they know not; and [there is] no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace. {judgment: or, right} 9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, [but] we walk in darkness. 10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if [we had] no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; [we are] in desolate places as dead [men]. 11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but [there is] none; for salvation, [but] it is far off from us.

12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions [are] with us; and [as for] our iniquities, we know them; 13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. 15 Yea, truth faileth; and he [that] departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw [it], and it displeased him that [there was] no judgment.

16 And he saw that [there was] no man, and wondered that [there was] no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. 17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance [for] clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. 18 According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. 19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun.

When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. {lift...: or, put him to flight}

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion,

and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Looking again at v 20, Paul says this in Romans 11: (you will see the difference) -

There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

Jacob is the natural man, not 'Israel' - the spiritual man - yet.

All of Jacob's sons were born before he was given the name 'Israel'. Unlike Abram's name change, who is never again called Abram, Jacob continues to be called Jacob and Israel, depending on what the God is talking about.

The only way that 'out of Sion' can make sense, is, 'the Redeemer' will be an heir to the throne of David, David having made Zion his home. Isaiah is pointing to the Messiah.

v 21 - Indeed the word has been passed down the generations from those who believed. Believing Jews and Israelites were the first missionaries to their own people, as well as to the Gentiles.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Jesus Christ was the fulfilment of Isaiah 59:20.

Rabbi Paul, the Benjamite, citizen of Rome - once an unbeliever - testifies:

1 Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Luke testifies:

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. 21 But all that heard [him] were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? 22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Acts 9 above, is in part an answer to your suggestion (below the first quote), that God overrides people's wills.

veteran
I cannot really agree with that. Our Heavenly Father often does things for His Own Sake, irregardless of the people's actions.

dragonfly
And I can't really agree with that. God has never over-ridden a person's will, including His treatment of the children of Israel. I think it's a mistaken notion of God's sovereignty to imply that some of His people are puppets. Rather it is that regardless of people's actions, He loves them and died to redeem them. But unless they turn to Him with a contrite heart, I don't think they can experience all the benefits of their possible relationship with Him. In this respect, I don't think He has changed, and even descendants of the ten tribes of Israel will have to comply with the Door, to be received back in.

You replied with:

Afterall, what did Christ do to Saul (Apostle Paul) on the road to Damascus? Was Saul then obeying Christ? And with Jonah who had refused to obey God, what did God do in Jonah's case? Why would did Apostle Paul say in Romans 9 about Jacob and Esau, that before either child being born, neither have chance to do good or evil, God said, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated." And why did Paul also affirm that God hardened Pharaoh's heart?

But when Jesus spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus, Paul immediately asked, '6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?'

Jonah was slower to have a change of heart, (which only lasted long enough to get the job done), but Paul may have had the advantage, as he knew what had happened to Jonah. ;)

Jonah 2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, 3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. 4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

Jonah made his own decision to turn back to God. That is my point. God knows what people are thinking. We could add Moses to the list in Exodus 4, who did some serious negotiation with God to get a bit of his own way, and Sarai.

About Pharaoh, God planned to make His own name great in the whole earth, according to Paul's reading of Exodus 14 - Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rahab confirms: Joshua 2:11 And as soon as we had heard [these things], our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he [is] God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

Other verses state that one of His reasons for scattering the Israelites into the nations, later, was to keep His name in the public consciousness, or, make His name known to the peoples of the nations.

Jacob and Esau is trickier to be sure, although the account of their attitudes surely vindicates God's foreknowledge.
Genesis 25:32 And Esau said, Behold, I [am] at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

It's when one reads the series of lies which Jacob had to tell to receive the blessing, that on wonders at both God's and Jacob's intentions. And yet, much later, when Esau meets Jacob on his way home from Padanaram, Esau refuses his gifts saying, 'I have enough, my brother; keep that thou hast unto thyself.' (Genesis 33:9)

He is satisfied with the goods of this life. Jacob wanted more than that - both the birthright and the blessing - a closer relationship with God - that of the firstborn son: Hebrews 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, [leaning] upon the top of his staff. It's about the heart every time.

#400
You specifically skipped the part of the Jer.4 prophecy I posted that was in question here from the beginning, which Scripture points directly to what I've been saying from the start. That's why... you bypassed it and instead jumped to the Jer.4:8 verse. But if you don't care to admit that's why you skipped it, that's fine too.

I did deal with your request. Did you read my reply? Here is the exchange again:

veteran

Am I to assume you made a huge mistake by bypassing the previous Jeremiah 24 verses, or was that on purpose? Instead of quoting them you chose to just immediately jump to the Jer.24:8 verse which is not about Judah. Here's the important part of Jer.24 you skipped over...

Jer 24:5-7
5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7 And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart.
(KJV)

dragonfly
I skipped over them because I believe they were fulfilled by those who returned after the exile. My point was that disobedience is not overlooked by God. Generation after generation were destroyed by Him for their idolatry. The segment of Judah who refused to obey Him by going to Egypt received that same treatment.

Jeremiah 43 lays out how God planned to deal with the 'evil figs'.


Lastly, at the beginning of your last post you commented upon Retrobyter's statement

Retrobyter
They STILL expect the Messiah to come as promised. When they see Him come as expected, as prophesied by the prophets in the Tanakh, they WILL accept Him, whether they recognize Him as Yeshua` or not. The real problem is the learning curve:

veteran
The one soon to come to Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God in place of Jesus Christ is who the Orthodox unbelieving Jews will... accept...

While this may be true, it would not be the fulfilment of Matthew 23:39. I know,you didn't imply that it was.)

And unbelieving Jews will not be alone in their confusion. There will be a vast majority of the earth's population in complete agreement with them. Sadly. It's interesting, though, that the plan at the moment is to rebuild the Temple at Bethel. That's a good ten miles from Jerusalem. It kinda throws a spoke in the wheel of popular doctrine, methinks.

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

I realise I may have missed something you've been saying without spelling it out - because you think it's obvious, and therefore I should not only recognise it, but believe it - while I have been doing the very same by quoting from Romans 9.

I disagree. I think we've been very clear with each other. I know I have been. You began this by your disagreement with me on what Paul preached in Rom.11 about God having put 'blindness' upon Israel in part so The Gospel could go to the Gentiles, with you inferring that they've already had their opportunity to believe The Gospel, which basically is to deny the "spirit of slumber" idea Paul was teaching there concerning their blindness. Then it led to a lack of understanding of OT Scripture on your part. And now we're at the Jer.24 prophecy which was given for the latter days concerning a return to the holy land of the two basket of figs, and not for Jeremiah's days like you apparently assume.

The something I may have missed, is the reason for, or meaning of, your allusions to 'the majority of Judah'. Do you expect 'the majority of Judah' to turn to the Lord, like some believers do? If so, do you any Bible verses to support that idea?

I don't mind directing you to Scriptures that you've obviously not yet studied thoroughly nor understood. But I'm not going to waste my time doing that if you're going to show a lack of sincereity. Try the Romans 11:25-32 verses again, all of them, not just some pick and choose idiocracy.

As you have gathered, I hope, my reading of the Old Testament frequently refers to 'a remnant', or 'a very small remnant', both after the exile and after the Messiah has come. I can never find verses to support a massive acknowledgement of the truth amongst Jacob's descendants (should we know who they are, these days).

Why would you try and compare God's restoration of Israel in final with today anyway? Why did Christ's Apostles ask our Lord Jesus if He was then going to restore Israel at that time per Acts 1:6? Where did they even get that restoration idea? Are you that confused about that prophecy for the future? Do you not believe the Rev.20 "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect will be real??? Just what timing are the Ezekiel 47-48 chapters for in your opinion? Do you really believe there's no hope at all for the unbelieving Jews In Jerusalem and in the world today turning to Christ Jesus at a point in the future?

Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

What does that one verse you've taken out of the Book of Jeremiah prove?

In reply to the report in Wikipedia, you said:


I have never once implied or suggested that no portion of Israel will return to the land given to Abraham. But, the verses you are using to support that return are dislocated from their fulfilment, and, the doctrine that it has not already happened in a measure, is a new one. Historic Christianity knew that the return had begun centuries ago.

No they're not. The Jeremiah 24 Scripture is right on with the modern-day establishing of the nation state of Israel again. Thing is though, that's not involving the return of the ten tribed "house of Israel", the stick of Ephraim. That's only about a portion of the house of Judah being established in the holy lands again.

And here it is... (not for you since you clearly deny this Scripture):


Jer 24:1-10
1 The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

Jeremiah the prophet was shown 2 baskets of figs before the temple of The LORD. It was concerning who? Judah, the king of Judah, the princes of Judah, with the carpenters, smiths, etc., from Jerusalem to Babylon for their 70 years captivity in Babylon. The house of Israel is not mentioned there, for they were already in their separate captivity. This is about the southern kingdom of Judah only so far.


2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

Jeremiah saw that one of the baskets of figs looked good to eat, but the other basket were "naughty" figs which could not be eaten, the word naughty being the same word for 'evil'. Figs are not naughty, nor evil, so this is about God using those figs as a metaphor for two different peoples, which He makes that clear further down.


3 Then said the LORD unto me, "What seest thou, Jeremiah?" And I said, "Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."

The difference between the two baskets of figs is noted again, for emphasis.


4 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 "Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
6 For I will set Mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
7 And I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart."

God shows the good basket of figs represent Judah. He said He would acknowledge those of Judah carried captive to Babylon, and bring them again back to the holy land, and build them, and specifically... "not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up."

That underlined part is what reveals that this Jer.24 prophecy included a remnant of Judah returning to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity, but ALSO... under a very, very specific condition. That condition is that He would NOT pull them down again, and not pluck them up, meaning not remove them out of the holy land again.

Problem: during the period of the later Roman empire rule, Judah WAS PLUCKED UP FROM THE HOLY LAND after the 69 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. ONLY in later centuries close to our modern era did a portion of Judah start returning back to the holy land. In 1948, Judah became the state of Israel by U.N. Charter vote by the nations. And since then, they have NOT been plucked up out of the land since.

But what about the other basket of figs, the naughty figs, so evil they can't be eaten? God covers prophecy about them next...


8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

The evil figs would be scattered within Judah at Jerusalem, and also among the remnant of Judah scattered in Egypt.


9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.
10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.
(KJV)

And the evil figs would also... be scattered into all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a reproach wherever God drove them. Then God gives one final event about them, linked with the latter days, which is when the famine, pestilence, and sword, and consumption will occur.

 

[dragonfly]

Hello veteran,

Do you really believe there's no hope at all for the unbelieving Jews In Jerusalem and in the world today turning to Christ Jesus at a point in the future?

If this is what you think I've been saying, then you haven't been reading - or perhaps you haven't been understanding - my posts. Please find a quote from me which supports that I 'really believe there's no hope at all for the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem and in the world today turning to Jesus Christ at a point in the future'.

I know you think you've explained what I'm missing, and majored on your interpretation of Jeremiah 24, but where in scripture (if it's there) is there reference to Israelites and Jews having to be in Jerusalem or the land, to be saved?

This seems to be part of your anxiety about them coming to faith. Could you explain this to me, please?

As for 'in the world today', today is the day of salvation. The fields are all ripe.

 

[Erudite Celt]

I was just curious to know what people thought as to how close we were to the seven year tribulation? I just wanted to say, I didn't really want to turn this thread into a does a seven year tribulation exist vs does not exist thread. If you don't believe in it, great, vote you don't believe in it and move on, or start another thread on why you don't believe in it.

Joshua David

Why didn't you just title the thread "Tribulation Believers Only, When will it happen"?

 

[veteran]

Hello veteran,

If this is what you think I've been saying, then you haven't been reading - or perhaps you haven't been understanding - my posts. Please find a quote from me which supports that I 'really believe there's no hope at all for the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem and in the world today turning to Jesus Christ at a point in the future'.

You made statements to that effect early on when you disagreed with me about the Rom.11 Scripture 'blindness' upon a part of Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, like Paul said there. Your interpretation was that that fulness time had already come in the past, when it has not yet, because it signals a time of completeness, not just a start of The Gospel going to Gentiles.

I know you think you've explained what I'm missing, and majored on your interpretation of Jeremiah 24, but where in scripture (if it's there) is there reference to Israelites and Jews having to be in Jerusalem or the land, to be saved?

Your land and "to be saved" question is irrelevant to what we've been discussing.

This seems to be part of your anxiety about them coming to faith. Could you explain this to me, please?

Your "anxiety" reference is also irrelevant to the topic and my explanations.

As for 'in the world today', today is the day of salvation. The fields are all ripe.

I consider that as a sign that the debate is over, since you apparently have nothing of value to add on the topic, and instead want to change to a different topic.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

Clearly I am at variance with what you have expressed. I was willing, though, to have a fuller explanation. However, it seems you don't see any merit in the consideration I've given to the matter, and have mostly ignored the scripture I've brought to the discussion, which is quite disappointing.

You made statements to that effect early on when you disagreed with me about the Rom.11 Scripture 'blindness' upon a part of Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, like Paul said there. Your interpretation was that that fulness time had already come in the past, when it has not yet, because it signals a time of completeness, not just a start of The Gospel going to Gentiles.

What I hoped you would see is, that when the New Covenant first began between God and man, only Israel were invited, until Acts 10. Once Gentiles could be admitted by the same kind of faith in the work of Jesus Christ, there was a catch-up phase. That said, I do not dispute that Paul said 'until', and that for one final generation there may be a falling of the scales from all eyes. I'm not convinced they will all believe, though. Did he say they would?

Or is he comforting himself over the many to whom he had already preached, who had judged themselves,'unworthy of everlasting life'? Acts 13:46

There were other things going on too, and Saul had had Israelite Christians put to death and tortured. He had been an unbeliever. That is of great significance to his thesis in Romans 11. He had been a broken off branch who was now grafted in. His blindness had been healed in Acts 9.

This is the substance of my argument against the futurism which manages to excuse all the Israelite/Jewish people who have turned their hearts back to God as Paul did, and experienced the taking away of the 'vail' that was before their hearts, as Paul describes in 2 Corinthians 3.

Israelite believers would have brought up their children to be Christians, as would Gentiles believers. Thus the commonwealth of Israel under the New Covenant, would have continued to grow.

Meanwhile, there is always an element of the house of Israel and Judah who suffer from this blindness, to whom the gospel remains that their Messiah has come - Jesus Christ who fulfilled all the prophecy as to their ability to identify Him. In the end though, it comes down to whether a person will turn from their own sin. This is the importance of Isaiah 59:20.

According to Paul in Romans 10:17, it is the word of God itself which opens the ears to God's very real presence. Again he is using his own experience of being spoken to by Jesus, as a standard by which to compare what he sees happening to others when he preaches the gospel of truth to them. He states that this 'hearing' of the word of God - with the understanding of the heart- creates faith and he quotes Isaiah's frustration at the unbelief which represents a rejection, both of that word and the power to receive it (believe) which accompanies the word of truth.

Going further back in Paul's discourse in Romans, he says a number of things which are relevant to a discussion of Romans 9:22.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

(I have previously quoted from earlier in Romans 9, so have moved on to the next part of Paul's argument.) In both v 25 and v 27, Israel is implied, as well as Gentiles. Peter quotes this in his first epistle chapter 2, also. It is that God had rejected Israel, but promises to save a remnant, and also had promised to provoke them by His better relationship with other nations. Both of these effects are being referred to.

But, now we see that God has changed His operation from dealing with each generation or its children for their sin, once having rolled it all up, from Adam's misdemeanour's effect on the whole human race, into Jesus' death on the cross, to a time of future judgement upon all those who reject Christ.

The evidence that Israelites and Jews have continued to come to the recognition of their Messiah is overwhelming. Messianic synagogues are increasing in number. There are hundreds in the US and at least 46 in the UK. I've not tried to count those in Europe. So, the 'slumber' which God put on Israel at the time of their idolatries in Isaiah's day, has been wearing off. But, as Paul points out in 2 Corinthians 4, if people will look at idols, and worship the god of this world (gold, imho), they will be blinded, but he exhorts - 'Flee idolatry'. John calls it 'walking in darkness', ending his epistle, 'Little children, keep yourselves from idols'. The end of a person will be defined by their attitude to God's call away from fleshly lusts. It is clear that He will hold the individual responsible for the choice they made when they heard the gospel with understanding, but resolved to reject it.

In 2 Peter 3:9b, he states: [God] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Might this be 'his promise' to return?

If so, it is clear that Peter expects there to be some perishing going on, when the Lord does return. Romans 9:22


So far in our discussion, you have not acknowledged any of my quotes from Romans 9. This gives the impression that you are unable to answer Paul's argument, with which I am in agreement, and also gives the impression that you either don't know what it is and how it leads to Romans 11; or, you prefer the modern interpretation of Romans 11 over that offered by the apostle. All I am doing is stating Paul's case, 'today'.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And Paul preached to Jews - who came to faith in Christ - even after he began to turn his focus on the Gentiles.

My understanding of Paul's message, includes that he recognised that those who rejected Christ would be lost eternally. This rests on Moses' prophecy in Deuteronomy 18, quoted by Peter at the end of Acts 3 in the Temple which sermon ends: 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (Isaiah 59:20; Romans 11:26)

But, if they reject this Prophet, there will be no other redemption. (Acts 3:22, 23)

Luke 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed [him]. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? 16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard [it], they said, God forbid.

17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? 18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

Clearly I am at variance with what you have expressed. I was willing, though, to have a fuller explanation. However, it seems you don't see any merit in the consideration I've given to the matter, and have mostly ignored the scripture I've brought to the discussion, which is quite disappointing.

I like to stay with what's actually written in God's Word brother. Although I understand parts of prophecy can be left open to speculation until it actually comes to pass, I don't like to get too far away using speculation, including prophecy involving The Gospel and the restoration of Israel. So when you start getting away from the main topic, like you did in your #403 post, I begin to lose interest.

What I hoped you would see is, that when the New Covenant first began between God and man, only Israel were invited, until Acts 10. Once Gentiles could be admitted by the same kind of faith in the work of Jesus Christ, there was a catch-up phase. That said, I do not dispute that Paul said 'until', and that for one final generation there may be a falling of the scales from all eyes. I'm not convinced they will all believe, though. Did he say they would?

You might begin in the Book of Isaiah about that regarding the restoration of the seed of Israel. It's also in just about all the OT Books of the prophets. By what you're trying to ask me I take as a plea from one not Biblically learned in the OT prophets on this matter (no insult intended), simply because there exists so many Scriptures there to subantiante Israel's restoration.

The problem you appear to be having is not grasping what Christ's future Millennium reign is for. This is why I asked you once if you even believed if that future "thousand years" by Christ and His elect per Rev.20 is going to be real. If you don't believe it, then it would be easy to skip all the OT prophecy about Israel's future restoration under our Lord Jesus Christ. Many Churches today hardly even crack open the Old Testament Books of the prophets. Can't understand the end without them though, for that's where the details are written, while the New Testament Books most often only give hints, like Matt.19:28 when Jesus promised His Apostles would sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel, directly pointing to Israel's future restoration in His Kingdom. Instead, you seem to think that for the majority of the seed of Israel to be saved, it must occur only prior to Christ's second coming.

None of the following has happened yet...

Isa 11:11-12
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And He shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
(KJV)

Jer 3:17-18
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
(KJV)

Jer 30:7-11
7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O My servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
(KJV)

Ezek 37:21-22
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
(KJV)

Or is he comforting himself over the many to whom he had already preached, who had judged themselves,'unworthy of everlasting life'? Acts 13:46

How is that not speculation on your part? Even Apostle Paul couldn't overcome the "spirit of slumber" which God put upon those so The Gospel would go also to the Gentiles like he said at the end of Romans 11.

There were other things going on too, and Saul had had Israelite Christians put to death and tortured. He had been an unbeliever. That is of great significance to his thesis in Romans 11. He had been a broken off branch who was now grafted in. His blindness had been healed in Acts 9.

How was Paul (Saul) different? Christ Divinely intervened with Paul on the road to Damascus, since Christ said he was His "chosen vessel" to take The Gospel to Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. So you might as well question how Christ ended all His Apostle's blindness when He chose them. Were Christ's other Apostles doing what Saul (Paul) was doing before Christ converted him? If no, then where was their blindness to begin with? Why not try assigning that blindness of Rom.11 upon Abraham too while you're at it! Obviously brother, you just don't yet know the right Biblical questions to ask on this matter.

Paul revealed in Rom.11:1-5 that God had preserved an elect remnant of the seed of Israel in The Gospel to Himself, just like He did in Elijah's day against the prophets of Baal. Paul then revealed that the rest of the seed of Israel were blinded, with Paul referring us directly back to Isaiah 29 about God having put the "spirit of slumber" upon the unbelieving portion of Israel. Then starting at Rom.11:25, Paul gives why God did that upon Israel "in part", until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. It's all written in simplicity, so why... won't you believe it as written?

You already made the mistake once of saying that God will not influence anyone's choice to believe or not believe. Yet Apostle Paul is a prime example of Christ directly influencing his belief. So if Christ can do that, then why can't you accept the Rom.11 fact that He can also blind a portion of Israel all the way to the end of this present world, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in? Why is it you don't understand God's Power to do that?

This is the substance of my argument against the futurism which manages to excuse all the Israelite/Jewish people who have turned their hearts back to God as Paul did, and experienced the taking away of the 'vail' that was before their hearts, as Paul describes in 2 Corinthians 3.

OK, when you speak against the term "futurism", it suggests to me that believe in either the seminary doctrines of Preterism or Historicism.

Some of Judah has turned to believe on Christ Jesus, quite a few of them here on this forum. But as we can still see today, the majority of Judah has yet to believe on Jesus Christ as Messiah, especially in the nation state of Israel. And that reveals what per Bible prophecy about the "house of Judah"? It pretty much says they will cease to exist once Christ returns according to... what you believe. Do the OT prophets show that happenning? God forbid, no. Instead, God revealed through His OT prophets that the house of Judah is going to be joined back with the house of Israel (ten tribes) when Christ restores the full nation of Israel like it was in David's days. Prophecy in Zech.12 even shows how the unbelievers will mourn for Christ once He reveals Himself to them at His SECOND COMING. Many of them will turn then, but they will go through Christ's Milennium reign under judgment of Christ's rod of iron. No mystery, because many Christian brethren that become deceived and mistakedly bow to the coming false messiah will be among those under Christ's judgment 'during'... the future "thousand years" of Rev.20.

Israelite believers would have brought up their children to be Christians, as would Gentiles believers. Thus the commonwealth of Israel under the New Covenant, would have continued to grow.

You're getting into that speculation territory again.

Meanwhile, there is always an element of the house of Israel and Judah who suffer from this blindness, to whom the gospel remains that their Messiah has come - Jesus Christ who fulfilled all the prophecy as to their ability to identify Him. In the end though, it comes down to whether a person will turn from their own sin. This is the importance of Isaiah 59:20.

The Isaiah 59:20 verse is future timing, for Christ's second coming. At present, many of the Jewish peoples very much believe in God, and follow His ways. They just don't believe Jesus of Nazareth is The Messiah, and that from the corrupt religous leadership over them. We've got a lot of Christian brethren that do believe, yet still sin, and the corrupt religious leaders in some Churches today are misleading them also. So how is it that you've judged unbelieving Judah already when Christ has not yet? Remember, Apostle Paul told us we shouldn't be wise in our own conceits about this matter of the unbelieving part of Israel that God has blinded until Salvation to the Gentiles is full.

According to Paul in Romans 10:17, it is the word of God itself which opens the ears to God's very real presence. Again he is using his own experience of being spoken to by Jesus, as a standard by which to compare what he sees happening to others when he preaches the gospel of truth to them. He states that this 'hearing' of the word of God - with the understanding of the heart- creates faith and he quotes Isaiah's frustration at the unbelief which represents a rejection, both of that word and the power to receive it (believe) which accompanies the word of truth.

You're speculating again. You can't try to speak for Paul like that, for he certainly did not impart all that within the Romans 11 chapter. Furthermore, your speculation just totally eclipses the hope Paul preached for unbelieving Israel at the end of Rom.11. What you're saying just strikes that part of Rom.11 out completely, which is to take away from God's Word.

Going further back in Paul's discourse in Romans, he says a number of things which are relevant to a discussion of Romans 9:22.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

(I have previously quoted from earlier in Romans 9, so have moved on to the next part of Paul's argument.) In both v 25 and v 27, Israel is implied, as well as Gentiles. Peter quotes this in his first epistle chapter 2, also. It is that God had rejected Israel, but promises to save a remnant, and also had promised to provoke them by His better relationship with other nations. Both of these effects are being referred to.

Why do you bother quoting so much Scripture when your own words don't align with it?? Is that supposed to serve as some kind of filler to fool others here into thinking you know Bible Scripture? I see you getting away from what's actually written, even with what you quote. My point? If God can harden some for His purposes, then does that mean they are doomed to perish in the "lake of fire" already now?

Who all do you personally believe have already been judged and sentenced today to perish in the "lake of fire"? When do you believe God's final Judgment happens? At Christ's second coming?

But, now we see that God has changed His operation from dealing with each generation or its children for their sin, once having rolled it all up, from Adam's misdemeanour's effect on the whole human race, into Jesus' death on the cross, to a time of future judgement upon all those who reject Christ.

Does that mean that Apostle Paul just lied in Rom.11 about Israel's future Salvation per the Book of Isaiah?? Was he also telling a lie about the portion of Israel "in part" which God had blinded, that there is no hope for them at all? If you say yes to any of that, then you are getting away from what Paul actually said there in Rom.11, even when he was quoting from Isaiah and the condition of until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Instead, you are making yourself judge and jury in place of our Lord Jesus Christ Who only... is Judge unto one's Salvation.

The evidence that Israelites and Jews have continued to come to the recognition of their Messiah is overwhelming. Messianic synagogues are increasing in number. There are hundreds in the US and at least 46 in the UK. I've not tried to count those in Europe. So, the 'slumber' which God put on Israel at the time of their idolatries in Isaiah's day, has been wearing off. But, as Paul points out in 2 Corinthians 4, if people will look at idols, and worship the god of this world (gold, imho), they will be blinded, but he exhorts - 'Flee idolatry'. John calls it 'walking in darkness', ending his epistle, 'Little children, keep yourselves from idols'. The end of a person will be defined by their attitude to God's call away from fleshly lusts. It is clear that He will hold the individual responsible for the choice they made when they heard the gospel with understanding, but resolved to reject it.

Yet that's a drop in the bucket compared to the number of Christian Churches all over the world. And as we can still see, the majority in the state of Israel today still... refuse to believe on Christ Jesus. Nice try with your attempt to disregard the OT prophets and Paul in Rom.11 about the "spirit of slumber" that's still in effect upon the majority of them today. Without that blindness being in effect all the way up to Christ's second coming, the future prophecy of their mourning for Him when He returns would not be possible. One of the main events you're also forgetting that's about our times today, is the coming of a false one first, and the falling away of many to believe on that false one, which is also going to cause many to mourn when Christ shows up to defeat that false one. That future falling away to bow to the coming false messiah is going to cause not just the unbelievers of Israel shame, but also many of our Christian brethren that fall in our near future. So many Christian brethren are going to be in the same boat with unbelieving Israel when Jesus returns. I'm certain then you will finally understand more about that 'blindness' of not having eyes to see, and ears to hear.

In 2 Peter 3:9b, he states: [God] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Might this be 'his promise' to return?

If so, it is clear that Peter expects there to be some perishing going on, when the Lord does return. Romans 9:22

Truly, all... must believe on Christ Jesus unto Salvation. The matter you're not understanding is how when God Himself blinds someone, their free will is affected. It works both ways; God can impart blindness, harding some to be against The Gospel for the negative side of His Plan of Salvation, and He can take that blindness away, like He did with Paul, and as He does when He 'calls' someone in The Gospel.

Yet the 2 Pet.3:9 verse is not specifically covering that matter; but Paul did in Rom.11, as also our Lord Jesus did in Matt.13 with His Apostles, and as Paul also did in 2 Thess.2 about the great apostasy that's to come when false messiah comes.

So far in our discussion, you have not acknowledged any of my quotes from Romans 9. This gives the impression that you are unable to answer Paul's argument, with which I am in agreement, and also gives the impression that you either don't know what it is and how it leads to Romans 11; or, you prefer the modern interpretation of Romans 11 over that offered by the apostle. All I am doing is stating Paul's case, 'today'.

Yeah, I covered questions about Rom.9, even went into detail with some of its verses. But you never gave a rebuttal, for that's way back in earlier posts. You appear to be quite scattered with your Biblical coverages. I'm no 'one-verse Charlie'. I don't like to slice and dice God's Word.

And further, you are miles away... from agreement with Paul in Rom.11:25 forward concerning the future restoration of the blinded part of Israel. As a matter of fact, you keep skipping right over the last part of Rom.11 like it doesn't even exist. So may Christ Jesus turn your OWN false witnesses directed at me upon yourself.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And Paul preached to Jews - who came to faith in Christ - even after he began to turn his focus on the Gentiles.

My understanding of Paul's message, includes that he recognised that those who rejected Christ would be lost eternally. This rests on Moses' prophecy in Deuteronomy 18, quoted by Peter at the end of Acts 3 in the Temple which sermon ends: 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (Isaiah 59:20; Romans 11:26)

But, if they reject this Prophet, there will be no other redemption. (Acts 3:22, 23)

Luke 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. 15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed [him]. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? 16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard [it], they said, God forbid.

17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? 18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Once again, bunches of quoting Scripture by you, but not even ONE quote and address from the Romans 11:25 forward Scripture in question. May others here judge between me and you.

 

[dragonfly]

Hello veteran,

Dawn will be breaking here soon, so please forgive any typos. I will check it over tomorrow. Many thanks.

So when you start getting away from the main topic, like you did in your #403 post, I begin to lose interest.

Brother, it was you who mentioned today and the future. I don't doubt Jews and Israelites will come to the Lord today and in the future, but I tie that to a simple comprehension of the New Testament accounts, which were already fulfilments of prophecy.

Instead, you seem to think that for the majority of the seed of Israel to be saved, it must occur only prior to Christ's second coming.

Having called on prophecy to support your understanding of the restoration of Israel to the land, how can you overlook the OT prophecies who refer to only a remnant being saved - a tenth?

Now, I'm not saying that in the end, that could be very large number, but it does leave nine tenths who are not saved. By my maths, nine tenths is a majority of ten tenths. This is why I asked you earlier in our discussion about your view of the relationship between Jews being in Jerusalem and their salvation. Do you really believe that Jews have to be back there to be saved?

If so, is this because you believe that Matthew 23:3939 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord, is about the return of Christ, rather than the much more obvious understanding given to us in various parts of the New Testament, about what it is to be 'in Christ' - both as a believer and as an evangelist?

Even Apostle Paul couldn't overcome the "spirit of slumber" which God put upon those so The Gospel would go also to the Gentiles like he said at the end of Romans 11.

So you don't think that Paul had a 'spirit of slumber' which prevented him from 'seeing' the Messiah until after he'd become obedient to the gospel?

Along with that question is this one: do you therefore, believe that every Jew and Israelite who rejects the gospel, does so because God has put this 'spirit of slumber' on them, right up until today?

That would mean, then, that all the Jews and Israelites who believe the gospel when they hear it and turn to Christ, never had either a 'vail over their heart', or a 'spirit of slumber'. Is this what you believe? It has been lifted for no-one, for the whole two thousand years?

Going back to the remnant (only) which will be saved, how is it that the removal of the 'spirit of slumber' is going to make the enormous difference which is eagerly anticipated by those who believe every descendant of Jacob is going to be saved? Even Paul spoke only in terms of 'some'. Paul knew what they were like. He used to be one.

About the gospel going to the Gentiles, I just don't see the evidence in scripture, that their salvation depends on a 'spirit of slumber' remaining on Israelites and Jews. It is more that God always intended to save Gentiles (Gen 3:15), but in an attempt to get certain of Israel to take notice of His word and obey Him instead of other gods, He hopes to wake some up by so doing (saving Gentiles) - Deuteronomy 32:21.

How was Paul (Saul) different? Christ Divinely intervened with Paul on the road to Damascus, since Christ said he was His "chosen vessel" to take The Gospel to Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. So you might as well question how Christ ended all His Apostle's blindness when He chose them. Were Christ's other Apostles doing what Saul (Paul) was doing before Christ converted him? If no, then where was their blindness to begin with? Why not try assigning that blindness of Rom.11 upon Abraham too while you're at it!

If I'm understanding your questions here, correctly, you either don't think Saul/Paul was different (because he was blind), or, you think Jesus had to do something to end 'all His Apostle's blindness when He chose them' if they were the same.

Well, I don't think Saul was different, but as he said of himself, 'I did it ignorantly in unbelief', and, Jesus didn't call him to be a disciple.

I don't think Jesus 'ended all His Apostles' blindness when He chose them'; He spent considerable time explaining things only some of which they truly understood. That's why His ministry to them after the resurrection was important. They had finally begun to believe things they weren't prepared to believe before His death or resurrection. I am not diminishing what they had understood, but they didn't 'see' as disciples, the way they would come to 'see' as apostles (after the sending of the Holy Spirit).

(Please rephrase if I haven't understood your point. I feel you are saying the disciples 'saw'. I'm saying that if they did, it was limited and relative. They didn't see much, but they did know Jesus was the Messiah - by revelation from the Father.)

You already made the mistake once of saying that God will not influence anyone's choice to believe or not believe. Yet Apostle Paul is a prime example of Christ directly influencing his belief.

What I said was - and I've already explained this in more detail - that God does not force a person against their will. Paul said that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This is what happened to Paul: he heard God speaking to him and he believed. Paul was no more 'influenced' by God, than any other person who 'hears' what God is saying to them, and receives the faith which accompanies the hearing.

So if Christ can do that, then why can't you accept the Rom.11 fact that He can also blind a portion of Israel all the way to the end of this present world, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in? Why is it you don't understand God's Power to do that?

I understand God's power to do that, but it was not an arbitrary decision when He did. Israel had been provoking Him for centuries with their idolatries and 'the multitude of' their 'sorceries' by the time God told Isaiah what to prophesy in chapter 6. And I do accept that He can blind a portion of Israel all the way to the end of this present world, but I don't know why He would. He would rather give them an opportunity to believe before Christ's return, so that if they don't, He is further justified in destroying them for their continuance in unbelief. Acts 3:23

OK, when you speak against the term "futurism", it suggests to me that believe in either the seminary doctrines of Preterism or Historicism.

If I 'believe' any 'ism's, it's an accident. I'm not a full Preterist by a long way, and I'm not sure what a Historicist believes.

But as we can still see today, the majority of Judah has yet to believe on Jesus Christ as Messiah, especially in the nation state of Israel.

Please give me the scriptures you believe support 'the majority of Judah' coming to faith in Jesus Christ (regardless of where they live)?

It pretty much says they will cease to exist once Christ returns according to... what you believe.

I have never said this, and have no idea why you think I believe it.

Do the OT prophets show that happenning? God forbid, no. Instead, God revealed through His OT prophets that the house of Judah is going to be joined back with the house of Israel (ten tribes) when Christ restores the full nation of Israel like it was in David's days.

We are now back to the question of how you define 'Israel' under Christ's rule - put simply, alive or dead?

Prophecy in Zech.12 even shows how the unbelievers will mourn for Christ once He reveals Himself to them at His SECOND COMING. Many of them will turn then, but they will go through Christ's Milennium reign under judgment of Christ's rod of iron.

Why, if they have turned, would they be under judgment? Weren't the iniquities of us all, laid on Him?

Please explain the basis of your belief that there will be an opportunity to turn, after Christ's return? Thank you.

dragonfly

Israelite believers would have brought up their children to be Christians, as would Gentiles believers. Thus the commonwealth of Israel under the New Covenant, would have continued to grow.

veteran
You're getting into that speculation territory again.

How is this 'speculation'?

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

2 Timothy 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

Acts 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

I do realise that not all children of Christians turn to Christ, but some do, not necessarily preserving their Jewishness as the generations roll down.

The Isaiah 59:20 verse is future timing, for Christ's second coming.

Apart from how this interpretation fits into the doctrine you've espoused, please show me from scripture why this coming of Christ could not possibly be a reference to His first coming?

It needs to be distinct from everything He fulfilled in His first coming, to justify reserving it entirely for the next.

So how is it that you've judged unbelieving Judah already when Christ has not yet?

How is it that you think I've 'judged unbelieving Judah already'?

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

I'm only making observations by interpreting what is in the Book. I haven't said anything that's not a fairly obvious deduction from accounts in scripture. I don't have a hang-up about unbelieving Judah. And, I'm waiting for the New Testament revelations to be accommodated in your thesis.

contd.

dragonfly
According to Paul in Romans 10:17, it is the word of God itself which opens the ears to God's very real presence. Again he is using his own experience of being spoken to by Jesus, as a standard by which to compare what he sees happening to others when he preaches the gospel of truth to them. He states that this 'hearing' of the word of God - with the understanding of the heart- creates faith and he quotes Isaiah's frustration at the unbelief which represents a rejection, both of that word and the power to receive it (believe) which accompanies the word of truth.

veteran
You're speculating again. You can't try to speak for Paul like that, for he certainly did not impart all that within the Romans 11 chapter. Furthermore, your speculation just totally eclipses the hope Paul preached for unbelieving Israel at the end of Rom.11. What you're saying just strikes that part of Rom.11 out completely, which is to take away from God's Word.

1) I'm not speculating.

2) I am not speaking for Paul.

3) I'm stating gospel truth from both scripture (Paul's writing and accounts of the success of his preaching, Peter's preaching, Philip's exposition to the Ethiopian eunuch and countless other examples of the effect of God speaking to men and their right responses) and experience. There is a common experience amongst believers.

4) When the epistles were written, they were one document. It's been divided up for ease of reference. Romans 9 - 11 is a discreet section within the letter and there is a flow to Paul's declamation.

5) I am in no way eclipsing 'the hope Paul preached for unbelieving Israel at the end of Romans 11'. I am questioning you closely as to your extrapolation of OT prophecy unqualified by other NT revelation.

6) I am not removing anything from the word. By not addressing the whole New Testament, you're in danger of error.

Why do you bother quoting so much Scripture when your own words don't align with it??

You think my words don't align with it, because I am not trying to make scripture fit what I believe. I'm trying to make what I believe fit scripture. Because you think scripture means something else, you think that what I'm writing isn't there (in the text).

It may be that we have different ministries, and therefore both of us have limited revelation. I admit I'm tired of the whole 'all singing all dancing individualistic Christian' mentality, the alternative to which seems to be, not the Body of Christ in operation, but some other person making claims to an even more complete revelation - all by themselves. It doesn't work. It's not how the Lord ordained His word to be communicated between Christians.

Is that supposed to serve as some kind of filler to fool others here into thinking you know Bible Scripture?

No comment.

I see you getting away from what's actually written, even with what you quote.

Is this because you think it's irrelvant due to your own scheme of understanding?

My point? If God can harden some for His purposes, then does that mean they are doomed to perish in the "lake of fire" already now?

It may do. I don't think I've said it does, though. And, can you give me one place in scripture - OT or NT - where God has hardened a heart or hearts, that that person or group of people eventually come into relationship with Him?

Who all do you personally believe have already been judged and sentenced today to perish in the "lake of fire"?

Are you asking about people who are already dead, or still alive?

When do you believe God's final Judgment happens? At Christ's second coming?

I don't know.

dragonfly

But, now we see that God has changed His operation from dealing with each generation or its children for their sin, once having rolled it all up, from Adam's misdemeanour's effect on the whole human race, into Jesus' death on the cross, to a time of future judgement upon all those who reject Christ.

veteran
Does that mean that Apostle Paul just lied in Rom.11 about Israel's future Salvation per the Book of Isaiah?? Was he also telling a lie about the portion of Israel "in part" which God had blinded, that there is no hope for them at all? If you say yes to any of that, then you are getting away from what Paul actually said there in Rom.11, even when he was quoting from Isaiah and the condition of until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Instead, you are making yourself judge and jury in place of our Lord Jesus Christ Who only... is Judge unto one's Salvation.

Are you skipping over the word 'reject' in 'reject Christ'. I said future judgment.

Well, as I've explained previously in this discussion, I believe Isaiah 59:20 was fulfilled when the Messiah died in Jerusalem, was buried and raised to life there, ascended and sent the Holy Spirit to there. All who are in Him by faith, if they continue in faith, will be saved.

I don't know 'when' the fulness of the Gentiles will be considered to have come in, but I definitely don't believe that what Paul was talking about in Romans 11, justifies the doctrine which says Jews have to see Jesus physically before they need to believe in Him, ignoring so much of what Jesus had said and done with the disciples during His earlthy ministry and after His resurrection. I honestly don't believe that's what Matthew 23:39 is saying, based on NT truth.

I have never said that there is no hope for 'blinded' Israel. I have expressed that Paul was blind, but then he saw, and that preaching (as Paul did) opened the ears of some, and the eyes of others (not having the eyes of their hearts vailed after they turn to the Lord), and that there is no guarantee every 'blinded' Israelite whose blindness is removed by the Lord, will come to faith. The scripture doesn't say they will believe. It says their blindness will be removed.

There is ample evidence in the New Testament of people who saw Jesus, who had been healed by Jesus, resting in unbelief. They stopped following Him. They said, 'this is a hard saying', and that kind of thing. Look what happend in Capernaum and Bethsaida. It would be wonderful if all those unblinded Israelites came to faith, it would, but is that really what Paul is promising?

There is certainly a parallel with the prodigal son, in 'alive from the dead', but you must know that there are no block salvations under the New Covenant. Each person must come to Jesus Messiah individually, as He stated.

To your last point about making myself judge and jury - I don't know where you get that idea from what I've written. I'm a realist. Time will run out for us all one day, like when the battery dies on the laptop and the light goes out. Only on that 'one day', there will be no more flexibility apart from the mercy of God and the evidence in our favour that we've obeyed Him. The door will be shut. The question is, who will be inside, and who will be outside? Only the Lord knows that.

Without that blindness being in effect all the way up to Christ's second coming, the future prophecy of their mourning for Him when He returns would not be possible.

Ah! Now this is new information to the discussion.

Are you saying that you don't believe God will remove the blindness before Christ's return? Please just say yes or no.

Are you also saying that those who consiously rejected Him - of which we know there will be many - won't mourn? - only the blinded Israelies will mourn? (Do you see how much of an edifice has been built around a couple of verses?)

If so, could you explain that please, and bring in

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

One of the main events you're also forgetting that's about our times today, is the coming of a false one first, and the falling away of many to believe on that false one, which is also going to cause many to mourn when Christ shows up to defeat that false one. That future falling away to bow to the coming false messiah is going to cause not just the unbelievers of Israel shame, but also many of our Christian brethren that fall in our near future. So many Christian brethren are going to be in the same boat with unbelieving Israel when Jesus returns

No, I haven't forgotten.

and He can take that blindness away, like He did with Paul, and as He does when He 'calls' someone in The Gospel.

Thanks for acknowledging this. This is what I mean by 'faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God'.

The matter you're not understanding is how when God Himself blinds someone, their free will is affected.

If you can show me scripture to support your statement, I'll read it very carefully. May I remind you that those whom God had blinded had already used their 'free will' to sin relentlessly, until God sealed them into their own darkness. They don't lack free will because they can't make choices. They lack it because their heart is not in choosing the right.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Mark 5:5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

The spirit of the person is subject to the person. We all do what we want to do. Paul doesn't mention 'free will'.

Yeah, I covered questions about Rom.9, even went into detail with some of its verses. But you never gave a rebuttal, for that's way back in earlier posts.

My apologies. I thought I'd read all your replies to me. I will search for them.

And further, you are miles away... from agreement with Paul in Rom.11:25 forward concerning the future restoration of the blinded part of Israel. As a matter of fact, you keep skipping right over the last part of Rom.11 like it doesn't even exist.

I think what you mean is, you're unwilling to entertain any other reading of those verses, than your own.

So may Christ Jesus turn your OWN false witnesses directed at me upon yourself.

This is an unnecessary comment. What false witnesses? That I missed a post and therefore commented that it was disappointing to me that you had not ackcnowedged the consideration I've given to the matter?

Once again, bunches of quoting Scripture by you, but not even ONE quote and address from the Romans 11:25 forward Scripture in question. May others here judge between me and you.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I have shared my thoughts on this briefly, and in more detail. I have no intention of restating it repetitiously. You've made clear you believe I'm mistaken, and I've made clear I'm unsure that God has blinded the 'majority' of Israel to this day, never mind a future day. Whereas, apart from Paul, you believe they are all still blinded.

I do not accept your futurist interpretation of Isaiah 59:20 (to date - you could change your mind) applied to Romans 11.


Thank you for the discussion so far. :)

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

I know that the following post was directed to veteran, but I noticed a few points that I found rather disconcerting. (That means that I feel you are straying from the Scriptures on those points.)

Hello veteran,

Dawn will be breaking here soon, so please forgive any typos. I will check it over tomorrow. Many thanks.



Brother, it was you who mentioned today and the future. I don't doubt Jews and Israelites will come to the Lord today and in the future, but I tie that to a simple comprehension of the New Testament accounts, which were already fulfilments of prophecy.



Having called on prophecy to support your understanding of the restoration of Israel to the land, how can you overlook the OT prophecies who refer to only a remnant being saved - a tenth?

Who said that a "remnant" = a "tenth?" That's an assumption you should reconsider.

In the OT, the Hebrew words translated as "remnant" are "serach" meaning "a redundancy," "yaatar" meaning "an overhang, excess, or remainder," "shaa'ar" meaning "to swell up; be or make redundant," "sh'aar" meaning "remainder," "sh'eeriyt" meaning "a remainder, residual, rest," "shaaraah" meaning "to free," "pleeyshah" meaning "deliverance," and "achariyt" meaning "the last" or "the end" in Ezek 23:25 (go figure).

The Hebrew words translated as "tithe" or "tenth" are "`asiyriy" meaning "tenth," "`aasowr" meaning "ten," "`isaarown" meaning "a tenth part," "ma`aseer" meaning "from a tenth," and "`aasar" meaning "to accumulate or to tithe."

They are two sets of TOTALLY different words.

In the NT, the Greek words translated as "remnant" are "loipoi" meaning "remaining ones," "kataleimma" meaning "a remainder down; a few," and "leimma" meaning "a remainder.

The Greek words translated as "tenth" or "tithe" are "apodekato-oo" meaning "to tithe away from," "dekatos" meaning "tenth," "dekatee" meaning "a tenth," and "dekato-oo" meaning "to give or take a tenth."

Again, they are two sets of TOTALLY different words.

Be careful making assumptions. That's all I'm saying... for now, that is.

 

[veteran]

Brother, it was you who mentioned today and the future. I don't doubt Jews and Israelites will come to the Lord today and in the future, but I tie that to a simple comprehension of the New Testament accounts, which were already fulfilments of prophecy.

Sorry, but that's simply a false doctrine from men. Don't you realize what you've just said there with, "...which were already fulfillments of prophecy"?!?

That suggests that you actually believe NO MORE of the Jews today can be saved, and not just in the future. That's a terrible idea, and it's not an idea nor prophecy written anywhere in God's Word. Just as with Gentiles today and yet future, some of the Jews are also going to turn to Christ Jesus all the way up to the point of His second coming. But the majority of them will turn after He arrives. And that is... per Bible prophecy of both the Old and New Testaments. It's specifically what Apostle Paul was teaching from Rom.11:25 to the end of the chapter.

Having called on prophecy to support your understanding of the restoration of Israel to the land, how can you overlook the OT prophecies who refer to only a remnant being saved - a tenth?

It would depend on how... you understand the idea of 'saved' for when that tenth applies. If you read Ezek.44 about the Levite priests vs. the Zadok, then both will serve in Christ's future Millennium temple after His return, but the Levites that erred won't be allowed near Him, what kind of difference does that show? It shows those Levites that erred are 'saved', but will be under Christ's rod of iron for that future time. But the Zadok, they will serve Christ Jesus at His table, as written there. They represent the elect of Rev.20 which reign with Jesus. Understanding that then, which ones do you think that tenth represents there in Ezek.44? it represents Christ's elect who will reign with Him.

If so, is this because you believe that Matthew 23:3939 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord, is about the return of Christ, rather than the much more obvious understanding given to us in various parts of the New Testament, about what it is to be 'in Christ' - both as a believer and as an evangelist?

What do you think the phrase Jesus said in Matt.23:39 of "...Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say..." means? Jesus said that along with the "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" quote from Ps.118. He was standing right there among the blind scribes and Pharisees when He said that to them.

If... the Matt.21:9 quote shows that was fulfilled by Christ's first coming, and yet He said that while on earth in front of the scribes and Pharisees for the future, what do you think that means about that Ps.118 prophecy? You do understand that "...Ye shall" and "henceforth" and "until" are future tense don't you? Jesus was not speaking of His first advent there in Matt.23:39, but His future second advent.

Are you aware that the Isaiah prophecy that was quoted about John the Baptist still isn't yet fulfilled today? What stipulation did Jesus make when His disciples asked about John the Baptist and the prophecy of Elijah in Malachi 4? He basically said that John would have fulfilled the Malachi 4 prophecy about Elijah if... John had not been rejected and beheaded (Matt.17; Matt.11). The Malachi 4 prophecy was put on hold because of Christ being rejected and crucified by the Jews.

Obviously what you've been taught to wrongly do with that Matt.23:39 verse is to chop it up, and discard that "...Ye shall not see Me, henceforth, until..." part. And that just so what's left will fit the doctrine you hold to, which sounds like Preterism so far. If you'll go back and study all the Isaiah 40 prophecy, it's impossible to miss many parameters in that Isaiah prophecy which were not... fulfilled through John the Baptist. And the reason why is simple. It's because it's for Christ's future second coming. Both the OT and NT Scripture declare 2 Advents of Christ Jesus, literaly bodily advents, not just one.

So if you don't believe in the literal bodily second coming of Jesus Christ in the near future, then you're far beyond any help that I could give you.

So you don't think that Paul had a 'spirit of slumber' which prevented him from 'seeing' the Messiah until after he'd become obedient to the gospel?

Why are you grasping at straws? What does that have to do with what Paul was teaching in the Rom.11 chapter, especially the section from Rom.11:25 to the end of the chapter? Can't you stay on topic?

Along with that question is this one: do you therefore, believe that every Jew and Israelite who rejects the gospel, does so because God has put this 'spirit of slumber' on them, right up until today?

Most of true Judah, yes. And the evidence today is abundant. Problem also is, not all those who call theirselves Jews even have a literal heritage from the seed of Israel. What did Paul say about not judging anything until the time? So why are you so ready to judge unbelieving Jews today to condemnation, when Christ has not? I noticed you still refuse to answer that specific question.

That would mean, then, that all the Jews and Israelites who believe the gospel when they hear it and turn to Christ, never had either a 'vail over their heart', or a 'spirit of slumber'. Is this what you believe? It has been lifted for no-one, for the whole two thousand years?

No, it does not mean that. Why do you lean to that kind of reasoning when what Paul said in Rom.11 is clear? God preserved a 'remnant' of the seed of Israel just like He did in Elijah's day. So the calling and choosing belongs to God; it's about His Power over His election. And we know Apostle Paul was an elect 'chosen vessel' unto Christ. It's just that Paul's time for service in The Gospel was not until Christ converted him on the road to Damascus. According to Paul, in like Eph.2, the election were chosen in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world. That's when Christ first chose Paul; not when He only appeared on the road to Damascus. It simply was not yet Paul's time until the road to Damascus. Don't you remember Christ's disciples who asked about the man born blind from birth, who sinned, him or his parents, and what Jesus answered? Neither he nor his parents sinned to cause his blindness, but he was blind from birth for the specific time when Christ would come to heal him to show God's Works. That was why the blind man was born blind.

All I have time for now.

 

[dragonfly]

It occurred to me this week that early in Acts we have the following testimony -

Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly;
and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

This reminded me of how the Levites where separated to God to represent the firstborn of every family, and then were distributed throughout Israel sharing the land in the different tribal territories. When they had finished their season of service in Jerusalem, they would return home, here again God having provided for Himself ready-made missionaries.

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Then I found this -
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him;
but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

and this -
Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but to the Jews only.


Wherever people believed, it is likely they shared the gospel and made more disciples - Israelites included.

 

[[email protected]]

It is of continual amazement to me how this rubbish gets recycled and regurgitated as something new and revealing. It is none of that. At root the dogma of the tribulation is an ideology that is between one hundred and one hundred sixty years obsolete depending upon which committee of origin you use as a reference point. Add to that a total and complete LACK of literate appreciation of the events of history and the dispassionate observer would be forced to conclude that the precepts of the tribulation and rapture dogmas are nothing more than fantasy, its adherents little more than self-deluded comic book adventure addicts.

The pages of the Bible are grounded in truth and in the revelation of the things of God. Men have chosen to draw lines and spaces and end points where none exist and where no such directions are implied or stated. Yet these ideas, like so many others throughout history that God intended for encouragement of the saints and for celebration of Holy grace have been corrupted into the profits and self-interest of man.

When is the tribulation? If you take a cold hard look at history you'll know; its already happened. If you still live with mind and eye fixed firmly on the fantasy of popular novelizations and hysteria you can only come to one conclusion; its in the near future. In fact, its ALWAYS in the near future! Ever ponder that assertion? Its wrong, but despite obvious proofs to the contrary cannot be dispelled because IT SELLS BOOKS magazines and even adventure movies. Yet despite evidence and sound argument those who enjoy the titillation of the prospect of witnessing the murder of innocent Jews in a second holocaust remains.

This is anti-semitism revealed, not holy revelation and mercy from God.

In my opinion it is fantastical nonsense at the least, disgusting and inhuman at the extreme. Those who hope for another tribulation and mass murder of Jews should be deeply ashamed of themselves. This is NOT a Christian doctrine, it isn't gospel and it's just plain not right.

Time to cook up another story and leave the expectation of tribulation where it belongs, in the trash bin of history.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[dragonfly]

Brother,

I hope you noticed from the vote, that the majority of us don't believe in a '7 year tribulation', probably for most of more of the reasons you cited.


Hello Retrobyter,

Who said that a "remnant" = a "tenth?" That's an assumption you should reconsider.

In the OT, the Hebrew words translated as "remnant" are "serach" meaning "a redundancy," "yaatar" meaning "an overhang, excess, or remainder," "shaa'ar" meaning "to swell up; be or make redundant," "sh'aar" meaning "remainder," "sh'eeriyt" meaning "a remainder, residual, rest," "shaaraah" meaning "to free," "pleeyshah" meaning "deliverance," and "achariyt" meaning "the last" or "the end" in Ezek 23:25 (go figure).

The Hebrew words translated as "tithe" or "tenth" are "`asiyriy" meaning "tenth," "`aasowr" meaning "ten," "`isaarown" meaning "a tenth part," "ma`aseer" meaning "from a tenth," and "`aasar" meaning "to accumulate or to tithe."

They are two sets of TOTALLY different words.

In the NT, the Greek words translated as "remnant" are "loipoi" meaning "remaining ones," "kataleimma" meaning "a remainder down; a few," and "leimma" meaning "a remainder.

The Greek words translated as "tenth" or "tithe" are "apodekato-oo" meaning "to tithe away from," "dekatos" meaning "tenth," "dekatee" meaning "a tenth," and "dekato-oo" meaning "to give or take a tenth."

Again, they are two sets of TOTALLY different words.

Be careful making assumptions. That's all I'm saying... for now, that is.


In the Messiah's love,

I really apologise for not answering your last post to me sooner. I did read it over more than once, at intervals, and went back into scripture to check what I had read which led to my mention of a tenth. I don't know if you've done the same. The context was the remnant which would return from Babylon. I was/am not confused about the meaning of tenth and tithe, but thanks for the greater elucidation. :)

The verse I had in mind was Isaiah 6:13, which, if you read round the word which is translated by some as 'stump' (of a tree), it also means pillar. Either way, it is consistent with scriptural picture language of something which remains after the greater number of smaller parts have been destroyed. Even so, this stump, this tenth, was to be for plunder - which could refer to the Roman Empire which did not arrive or maintain its hold, bloodlessly. What's more, Christ was born at almost the same time as Rome took over Judaea, fully justifying Isaiah's word in that verse.

 

[veteran]

I didn't misunderstand what he meant by that tenth of Isa.6:13. It's indeed about the elect remnant of God, irregardless of exactly how many it actually is. Zechariah mentions a third, so there's another remnant idea.

 

[us2are1]

Son of Man the covenant spoken of is the peace plan established by the anti-christ and confirmed by Satan. When the anti-christ is mortally wounded Satan overtakes his body.... possess it. When Satan enters the inner sanctum it is the "celebration ceremony" for the even when he overtook the body of the anti-christ. When Satan has the image made off the beast and gives it life... where do you think he gets that life? Of course. he gets it from the anti-christ whose body he took over, hence the reason the image is made for the beast. When Satan enters the inner-sanctum for one week... half way through that week he emerges in all of Satan's beauty. and he confirms the covenant if which the anti-christ developed. ....a working model.

Fables and tales conjured up by evil men to fleece Gods sheep. Written in books for sale.
The antichrist is what saint John told about in 1 John 2, 1 John 4 and 2 John 2. There is no other antichrist. As for the word satan it means any one who is the "adversary of God". Men who love the nonsense of men and are not mindful of the things of God.

Matthew 16
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.

 

[veteran]

Fables and tales conjured up by evil men to fleece Gods sheep. Written in books for sale.
The antichrist is what saint John told about in 1 John 2, 1 John 4 and 2 John 2. There is no other antichrist. As for the word satan it means any one who is the "adversary of God". Men who love the nonsense of men and are not mindful of the things of God.

Matthew 16
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.

Denial that Satan, the Devil, is not a real entity, i.e., a heavenly cherub like Ezekiel 28 reveals, and that Job reveals having appeared before God's Throne, is how the pagans who follow Satanism today think. Many of them don't believe Satan as a real entity either, which was a surprise to me when I read one of the Church of Satan declaring that.

The Ezekiel 28 Scripture shows us Satan is a heavenly cherub. A cherub per God's Word is a heavenly type being. Not only that, but Ezekiel 28 also reveals that he was created an "anointed cherub that covereth". That means one of the angelic cherubs on the ark of the covenant which God told Israel how to build. God reveals Satan has the image of man. And that makes sense, since God created Adam from His Own Image and Likeness per Gen.1:26-27, which means the image of 'man' actually began in the Heavenly, and not with the flesh man Adam.

 

[us2are1]

Denial that Satan, the Devil, is not a real entity, i.e., a heavenly cherub like Ezekiel 28 reveals, and that Job reveals having appeared before God's Throne, is how the pagans who follow Satanism today think. Many of them don't believe Satan as a real entity either, which was a surprise to me when I read one of the Church of Satan declaring that.

The Ezekiel 28 Scripture shows us Satan is a heavenly cherub. A cherub per God's Word is a heavenly type being. Not only that, but Ezekiel 28 also reveals that he was created an "anointed cherub that covereth". That means one of the angelic cherubs on the ark of the covenant which God told Israel how to build. God reveals Satan has the image of man. And that makes sense, since God created Adam from His Own Image and Likeness per Gen.1:26-27, which means the image of 'man' actually began in the Heavenly, and not with the flesh man Adam.

More fables and tales from the long ago past of fleecers. Here read ezekiel 28 again. The prophet is speaking the word of God making light of the insanity of the king of tyre and all who are of his type for all time.
The covering cherub is the covering of Lies and insanity that keep everyone in the dark to this very day.

1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
3 (Behold, you are wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
4 With your wisdom and your understanding You have gained riches for yourself, And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),"
6 'Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, The most terrible of the nations; And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit, And you shall die the death of the slain In the midst of the seas.
9 "Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, In the hand of him who slays you.
10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised By the hand of aliens; For I have spoken," says the Lord God.' "
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.
18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." '

 

[dragonfly]

Hi veteran,

This is interesting, as it is a reversal of truth (lie) similar to 'ye shall not die'. No subtlety whatever - just the opposite of God's word.

Many of them don't believe Satan as a real entity either, which was a surprise to me when I read one of the Church of Satan declaring that.

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

God reveals Satan has the image of man. And that makes sense, since God created Adam from His Own Image and Likeness per Gen.1:26-27, which means the image of 'man' actually began in the Heavenly, and not with the flesh man Adam.

Exactly! But when Adam began to have children, they were not in the image of God, but 'in his own likeness, after his image'. Gen 5:1, 2, 3.

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

This is interesting, as it is a reversal of truth (lie) similar to 'ye shall not die'. No subtlety whatever - just the opposite of God's word.

It's all a trick those of the so-called church of Satan are playing. I suppose their denial of Satan as a real entity against God's Word is a ploy to try and attrack the deceived, making who or what they have believed on sound more acceptable, like you say, with no subtlety at all, but with a direct contradiction of God's Word.

John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Exactly! But when Adam began to have children, they were not in the image of God, but 'in his own likeness, after his image'. Gen 5:1, 2, 3.

Right.

More fables and tales from the long ago past of fleecers. Here read ezekiel 28 again. The prophet is speaking the word of God making light of the insanity of the king of tyre and all who are of his type for all time.
The covering cherub is the covering of Lies and insanity that keep everyone in the dark to this very day.

1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying,
2 "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
3 (Behold, you are wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
4 With your wisdom and your understanding You have gained riches for yourself, And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),"
6 'Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, The most terrible of the nations; And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit, And you shall die the death of the slain In the midst of the seas.
9 "Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, In the hand of him who slays you.
10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised By the hand of aliens; For I have spoken," says the Lord God.' "
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.
18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." '

Cheribum (plural for 'cherub') are real heavenly entities per God's Word...


Gen 3:24
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(KJV)


Exod 25:17-21
17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
(KJV)

That above is about covering cherubs, who's job is to covery the Mercy Seat. That's what the ark of the covenant pattern was derived from, the heavenly order of God's Throne.



Ezek 10:1-6
1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
2 And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight.
3 Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.
4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory.
5 And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.
6 And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.
(KJV)



What God says through Ezekiel about the "king of Tyrus"...

Ezek 28:13-16
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(KJV)


Those who claim that is about some flesh king as that "anointed cherub that covereth" must also deny all other Scripture about the heavenly cheribum being heavenly order beings. And those will always look silly with that Scripture denial.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I was just curious to know what people thought as to how close we were to the seven year tribulation? I just wanted to say, I didn't really want to turn this thread into a does a seven year tribulation exist vs does not exist thread. If you don't believe in it, great, vote you don't believe in it and move on, or start another thread on why you don't believe in it.

Joshua David

I know absolutely for sure the tribulation is 427 days closer than the day this thread started.

And that's a fact :) :)

Seriously .... tribulation aside ... the next event to happen is Israel will greatly expand it's borders to the original land God gave Jacob.

The hand of the miraculous will be obvious. Many citizens in the surrounding nations will drop Allah , recognize and serve the God of Israel , and live in peace and safety in the land along with their Israeli cousins.

God does this for His own reasons , and for His Holy Name , not necessarily because Israel deserves it.

That is what is next , and that is a fact.

Sometime afterwards comes the Gog and Magog invasions and the tribulation period.