God Is Against The Fly Away Doctrines

[tomwebster]

Are you saying the spiritually dead won't become spiritually alive during the millennium? Isn't that the millennium's purpose?

I'm not, it's what God's Word says. Some might not understand this:

Pro_21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.
The text actually starts back in chapter 19 verse 20, so you might want to start reading there.

Then we will go to Rev 20. Verse two tells you the timing; it is the millennium or one thousand years:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Verses 4 through 6 tells what is happening:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There will be several types of people in the millennium: Priests of the Zadok, have the charge of the inner court (Eze 40:46), they are able to approach Christ, and they teach (Eze 44)

the priests that went astray but did not bend a knee to Satan, they have charge of the outer court (Eze 44:9-14), they can not approach Christ, and they teach.

The rest are those that remain dead and are taught.

 

[Joshua David]

I'm not, it's what God's Word says. Some might not understand this:

Pro_21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.
The text actually starts back in chapter 19 verse 20, so you might want to start reading there.

Then we will go to Rev 20. Verse two tells you the timing; it is the millennium or one thousand years:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Verses 4 through 6 tells what is happening:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There will be several types of people in the millennium: Priests of the Zadok, have the charge of the inner court (Eze 40:46), they are able to approach Christ, and they teach (Eze 44)

the priests that went astray but did not bend a knee to Satan, they have charge of the outer court (Eze 44:9-14), they can not approach Christ, and they teach.

The rest are those that remain dead and are taught.

Well, I have to say, I do appreciate you at least supporting your statements... Though I can honestly say that I can't follow your jumps in logic. I still don't follow how you tie the belief in the rapture, with the millennium, and then with the Ezekiel temple.


How do you teach someone who is dead?


Joshua David

 

[banjo71]

As I read this thread, I see one side warning Christians in almost an attacking way, preaching something never preached by Paul, Peter, John, or even Jesus, and one side defending its position by the Word of God so that the Gospel can be preached to all men before the tribulation.


The first side is trying desperately to attack Christians who have a childlike faith in the rapture. First, Christians don't attack other Christians. Second, leave us alone - we have the Holy Spirit to guide us to warn us of impending deciet or danger. And furthermore, what you are claiming to warn about isn't a major warning theme in Paul, Peter, or John's writings. They warn more of self-righteousness and promote holy living that results from being in line with the gospel.
The second side is supporting this gospel cause because of genuine concern over souls who could enter into the great tribulation. The Bible supports a meeting in the clouds (I bet if some of you could take that part out of the bible you would), plain and simple.

 

[tomwebster]

[quote name='One of God's Children' timestamp='1306880573' post='112672']
... Second, leave us alone -...
[/quote]


Be careful what you ask for, sometime you will get it. OK, I will leave you alone! Remember you asked!

 

[veteran]

Just because I am open to being wrong, doesn't mean that I still can't defend my beliefs passionately. And it doesn't mean that I won't come on here and call someone on twisting the scriptures when I see it. I have heard this kind of garbage over and over from people who believe in the Post tribulation rapture.

Heeding Scripture as written is one thing, and heeding the doctrines of men is another. As can be seen with our discussion in the rapture thread, I was not the one twisting Scripture to try and make it fit a doctrine of men.

In that thread, you basically called the discussion off; I was just getting started. In your posts you completely failed to provide Scripture support for a Pre-trib rapture, or ANY rapture prior to the tribulation.

So likewise, I'm not above calling one down for twisting Scripture in God's Word either.

 

[aspen]

- Yeah, that's officially ridiculous.

Someone believing in the Rapture does not automatically make them a victim of Satan's influence or any less Christian than you are.

You are simply not qualified to make these assumptions.

You know Foreigner,

There have been times when your comments hit the nail on the head.....

This is one of those times.

 

[veteran]

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
(KJV)


Because those not on a Pre-trib rapture doctrine GIVE THE SAME WARNINGS that Christ and His Apostles gave about a false messiah that comes first to deceive the world, they are "attacking" those who don't believe it? What an absurd idea!!!

Paul well said about those who sleep in the night, that they are drunken in the night.

 

[veteran]

Are you saying the spiritually dead won't become spiritually alive during the millennium? Isn't that the millennium's purpose?

What I think Tom is talking about from Scripture, (correct me if I'm wrong Tom), is how God's Word teaches an idea about being spiritually dead inside...

Matt 23:27
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
(KJV)

Luke 11:44
44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
(KJV)


In 1 Cor.15:53-54, Apostle Paul taught that to have eternal Life through Christ 2 conditions must be met; 1) the body of corruption must put on a body of incorruption, AND 2) "this mortal" must put on "immortality". Most treat that as one operation, only one change. But Paul was pointing to 2 different changes, and one of them is within.

Everybody will put on the body of incorruption, for that is the "image of the heavenly" which is of both resurrections, the "resurrection of life" (the just) and the "resurrection of damnation" (the unjust) (John 5:29; Acts 24:15).

One's spirit being made alive 'inside' by The Holy Spirit through accepting Christ Jesus as God's promised Saviour is how change no.2 occurs. Those in Christ Jesus now... are "new creatures" inside to their spirit, which is why we are already now called "the sons of God." (1 John 3:2) The only part left to be redeemed by Christ is our body when He returns, and that for us is change no.1.

But the wicked, those of the "resurrection of damnation", they are STILL dead inside, that is to say, their spirit inside is still dead, not having experienced the regeneration of The Holy Spirit. For that reason, they will still be subject to the "second death" throughout Christ's Millennium reign with His elect. And that's the idea of being 'spiritually dead', still subject to the later "second death" of Rev.20:14.

 

[lawrance]

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
(KJV)


Because those not on a Pre-trib rapture doctrine GIVE THE SAME WARNINGS that Christ and His Apostles gave about a false messiah that comes first to deceive the world, they are "attacking" those who don't believe it? What an absurd idea!!!

Paul well said about those who sleep in the night, that they are drunken in the night.

Spot on veteran.

 

[Joshua David]

Heeding Scripture as written is one thing, and heeding the doctrines of men is another. As can be seen with our discussion in the rapture thread, I was not the one twisting Scripture to try and make it fit a doctrine of men.

In that thread, you basically called the discussion off; I was just getting started. In your posts you completely failed to provide Scripture support for a Pre-trib rapture, or ANY rapture prior to the tribulation.

So likewise, I'm not above calling one down for twisting Scripture in God's Word either.
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Saying that you have a different interpretation than someone is one thing. Speaking for God and declaring that God is angry because someone is teaching something that they believe to be true is something totally different. After all did you not say..

The ten tribes have some false preachers among them that operate like foxes in the desert (Ezek.13:4). They prophesy out of their own heart and claim The LORD said this or that, when He didn't speak to them at all (Ezek.13:6).

Now I have always said that this is what I believe to be true. I have never claimed that God said this, or God thought that. You are the one making this accusation. You are the one prophesying out of your own heart. Proclaiming that what you believe to be true is the only truth. You are the one claim that the Lord said this or that when He hasn't spoken to you at all. And by your own words, that makes you a false preacher, teacher, prophet... whatever you want to claim for yourself.


When you speak for God, and you are saying that God is this or God is angry at that, then you are acting in the office of a prophet. All I am saying is you better know beyond any doubt that God really did say this or that, and this is not just you thinking that you are right and are speaking for God based on that, because he takes a very dim view of people putting words in his mouth when he didn't tell them.


Joshua David

 

[veteran]

Saying that you have a different interpretation than someone is one thing. Speaking for God and declaring that God is angry because someone is teaching something that they believe to be true is something totally different. After all did you not say..

Must have taken you a while to dream that statement up.

Mark 13:22-27
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)

I say you fail to heed that Scripture as written.

That Scripture example is not given in a metaphorical sense, it is not symbology, not philosophy, not an expression, and not a parable or fictional story. Those "elect" are not some special group apart from Christ's Church. It is His true Church and Body.