Why do People Pray for the Dead?

[quietthinker]

Probably...I was dead a long time ago but I have been alive now for nigh on half a century.....

so there is life after death!

 

[ScottA]

There are two resurrections spoken about in scripture....one for the elect who are “resurrected first” to heaven to rule with Christ in his Kingdom (Revelation 20:6).....and there is one for the rest of mankind whom Jesus will call from their graves exactly like he did with Lazarus. (John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14)
One group are raised as immortal spirits to rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4) And the other are raised back to mortal life in paradise on earth.....just like it was originally intended to be in Eden. Being mortal didn't mean that the humans had to die...only that they could if they disobeyed God's command. Continuing life on earth from day one, was conditional.

You are adding a lot that is not in scripture. Sounds like what you imagine it to all mean after reading it. The problem is, all that is written does not occur in the world, for "The kingdom of God does not come with observation." Luke 17:20 ...In order to know the actual truth, all scripture must be reconciled and agree.

It sounds more like you are reading way more into what I said than what I meant.

Jesus was granted immortal life after his return to heaven. He was a mortal creature before then so that he could come to earth as a human and pay Adam's debt. Immortals cannot die, so this means that Jesus could not be God.

As far as the "body of Christ" is concerned...how many members do you think this body needs? Not all Christians make up the "body"...only the elect, specially chosen by God for positions of rulership and priesthood in heaven, are part of the "body". (Revelation 20:6) Rulers and priests cannot do a thing if they have no subjects or sinners for whom to rule and perform their priestly duties. There are no sinners in heaven....and kings do not rule one another. This is a heavenly government with earthly subjects....all bought with the blood of Christ.

It's all in your original post. But, no, Christ has made them "one body through the cross."

The "dead in Christ", as Paul showed were in their graves and were to remained there until Christ returned. (1 Thessalothem both to God in one body through the crossnians 4:13-17)

Those passages have nothing to do with it. But you are correct that it occurs with Christ's return...just not physically. Rising physically from the grave in each case, was a mere foreshadowing. But foreshadowings are not the real or actual event they point to, just as it was with Jesus, who rose from the dead in the flesh, but then ascended (rose) into heaven. His ascension (not his bodily resurrection on earth) was Him going to the Father, whom is spirit, and where flesh and blood cannot inherit or go.

Since the physically dead are actually dead (according to scripture).....there is no point in praying for them.
Those spiritually dead however, can benefit from our prayers because while there is life, there is hope. But discerning the difference between these is important. Those who pray for those who are actually physically dead as if they are alive somewhere and can benefit from those prayers, are operating on a mistaken understanding of what happens when we die. For the majority of humans who have ever lived and died, they will sleep in "sheol" until Christ establishes his Kingdom over the earth and Revelation 21:2-4 and John 5:28-29 have their fulfillment.

It sounds like you did not read my explanation on this. What you are saying is not true.

Israel, having received the promise of God for salvation, are the dead in Christ. They are physically dead already (first) because salvation had not yet come, and yet they are last to be born [again] of the Spirit. Thus Jesus explained, "So the last will be first, and the first last." It is the living (those born again since Christ) who are "the last who are first" (who come into the world last, but are first to be born [again] of the spirit of God).

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are adding a lot that is not in scripture. Sounds like what you imagine it to all mean after reading it. The problem is, all that is written does not occur in the world, for "The kingdom of God does not come with observation." Luke 17:20 ...In order to know the actual truth, all scripture must be reconciled and agree.

I know the truth....it just isn’t your truth.

But, no, Christ has made them "one body through the cross."

Sorry I cannot accept that at all. The one body of Christ is his elect which will rule mankind on earth. Revelation 21:2-4 confirms it.

Those passages have nothing to do with it. But you are correct that it occurs with Christ's return...just not physically. Rising physically from the grave in each case, was a mere foreshadowing. But foreshadowings are not the real or actual event they point to, just as it was with Jesus, who rose from the dead in the flesh, but then ascended (rose) into heaven. His ascension (not his bodily resurrection on earth) was Him going to the Father, whom is spirit, and where flesh and blood cannot inherit or go.

It does....but not your version of it.
Jesus was not raised in the flesh but as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18) He remained on earth for 40 days, not staying with his apostles as he had done for the previous three and a half years, but only “appearing” to them on occasion. Being raised as a spirit, he had the ability to materialize as angelic creatures had done before. When the three angels appeared to Abraham at Mamre, and one was identified as Jehovah, it was probably Jesus in his role as God’s Logos....his representative or or spokesman.

It sounds like you did not read my explanation on this. What you are saying is not true.

It is true from my perspective....who are you to tell me my interpretation of scripture is wrong...what if you are the one deceived by a different spirit...the deceptive one is an expert. Would you even know?
Who else believes what you believe? There are no ‘lone rangers’ in Christianity....if you do not have a brotherhood who share your beliefs, then how can you you call yourself a Christian. The “church” was not the building, but the congregation of fellow believers.

Israel, having received the promise of God for salvation, are the dead in Christ. They are physically dead already (first) because salvation had not yet come, and yet they are last to be born [again] of the Spirit. Thus Jesus explained, "So the last will be first, and the first last." It is the living (those born again since Christ) who are "the last who are first" (who come into the world last, but are first to be born [again] of the spirit of God).

Natural Israel was cast off as incorrigible because they could not ever keep a covenant....and they killed their prophets to silence them, instead of being corrected by them. Why do you think they lasted so long with such an abhorrent history? That was because God never broke his agreement with them, and the Messiah was coming through Israel as prophesied...ready or not...they were not ready. Jesus was not what they were expecting at all.
When they murdered God’s son, he cast them off. And a new spiritual nation replaced them. (Matthew 23:37-39)

Matthew 21:42-46...
“42 Jesus said to them: “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone. This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling on this stone will be shattered. As for anyone on whom it falls, it will crush him.”
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his illustrations, they knew that he was speaking about them. 46 Although they wanted to seize him, they feared the crowds, because these regarded him as a prophet.”

 

[Aunty Jane]

so there is life after death!

Only figuratively speaking.....spiritual life after spiritual death.....no resurrection required.....just a wake up call.

 

[GaryAnderson]

Why shouldn’t people pray for the dead?

 

[ScottA]

It does....but not your version of it.
Jesus was not raised in the flesh but as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18) He remained on earth for 40 days, not staying with his apostles as he had done for the previous three and a half years, but only “appearing” to them on occasion. Being raised as a spirit, he had the ability to materialize as angelic creatures had done before. When the three angels appeared to Abraham at Mamre, and one was identified as Jehovah, it was probably Jesus in his role as God’s Logos....his representative or or spokesman.

I am not going to continue to debate things with you that you turn right around and contradict against the scriptures. The above comment is just an example, and it is enough.

Here (above) you say "Jesus was not raised in the flesh but as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18) He remained on earth for 40 days...", which Jesus Himself made clear, is not the case. But you speak against Him:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Luke 24:39​

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[quietthinker]

Why shouldn’t people pray for the dead?

Because they are dead! or is the word 'dead' not understood?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am not going to continue to debate things with you that you turn right around and contradict against the scriptures. The above comment is just an example, and it is enough.

Here (above) you say "Jesus was not raised in the flesh but as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18) He remained on earth for 40 days...", which Jesus Himself made clear, is not the case. But you speak against Him:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Luke 24:39​

If Peter says that Christ “died in the flesh but was raised in the spirit”, the scriptures themselves are a testimony to that fact. Many times after his resurrection when he “appeared” to his disciples, they did not recognise him....even Mary after his resurrection did not know it was Jesus until he said her name. She thought he was the gardener.
He did not stay with his apostles after his resurrection which he had done for the previous three and a half years. He only “appeared” to them.

Understanding that it was forbidden in God’s law to communicate with spirits, (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) God’s agents always appeared in physical form. Hence when Jesus appeared to his disciples, it was always in physical form, thought he was not always in the same body.

Twice it is mentioned that he appeared with the wound marks of his execution to prove that it was indeed him......remembering that they were not yet in full knowledge of what was happening, hence before his departure, he told them to wait for the promised Holy Spirit which would reveal all.

You say you take all of scripture into account, but what you have said here proves that you haven’t.....the account says that Jesus was whipped with a flagellum by the Romans to appease the Jews who had threatened Pilate’s political career unless he agreed to their demands that Jesus be put to death. This whip has pieces of bone attached to multiple leather cords to rip away the flesh. His terrible physical condition is attested to in that he collapsed whilst carrying his execution stake to Calvery. No one mentioned his physical condition after his resurrection, which if he still carried those wounds would have been there for all to see. And it stands to reason that a resurrection by God would not include raising a damaged body. Healing the malady that afflicted or killed someone was what Jesus did. That was the work of Holy Spirit.

If Jesus appeared on other occasions without the wound marks, which would have been clearly visible, then he was doing those couple of times for effect....such as to convince a doubting Thomas.

He appeared to two of his disciples walking on the road who took him for a stranger who was unaware of what had happened. Then he appeared in a locked room, and he disappeared before their eyes after they recognised the way he broke bread at the meal. (Luke 24)

This is not something a flesh and blood human can do. So Jesus was not raised in the body he sacrificed....he was 100% mortal human, the price of redemption. So he was raised in a spirit body and was able to materialize in whatever body he wished. He himself said that he was “flesh and bones”....not “flesh and blood”. He had sacrificed that body and would not take it back. When angels took on human form, they ate and drank with those to whom they were sent. (Genesis 18) Can we really comprehend the abilities of those who dwell in the same realm as their Creator?

When ascending into heaven in full view of his disciples, a cloud obscured the fact that he had dematerialised in order to return to the spirit realm. Only spirits can inhabit the spirit realm we call heaven.

 

[GaryAnderson]

Because they are dead! or is the word 'dead' not understood?

Well yeah but we pray for them cos we love them and we can’t forget them. So why shouldn’t we?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well yeah but we pray for them cos we love them and we can’t forget them. So why shouldn’t we?

Because they are in the safest place imaginable.....their graves, awaiting Jesus call to come out. (John 5:28-29)
The dead are not alive somewhere else...they are sleeping peacefully undisturbed by what troubles us.
Isn’t that more comforting than worrying about them being tortured in a fiery hell?

 

[GaryAnderson]

Because they are in the safest place imaginable.....their graves, awaiting Jesus call to come out. (John 5:28-29)
The dead are not alive somewhere else...they are sleeping peacefully undisturbed by what troubles us.
Isn’t that more comforting than worrying about them being tortured in a fiery hell?

Okay but what’s the harm in praying for them?

 

[quietthinker]

Well yeah but we pray for them cos we love them and we can’t forget them. So why shouldn’t we?

what do you hope to achieve by praying for them Gary?

 

[GaryAnderson]

what do you hope to achieve by praying for them Gary?

You pray for their soul, for God to have mercy on their soul.

 

[quietthinker]

You pray for their soul, for God to have mercy on their soul.

God is merciful Gary. Dead people are dead souls. While we are alive our choices regarding how we relate to God are open but once the doors of life are closed and death envelopes us, the end of the road is reached as far as consciousness goes.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

 

[GaryAnderson]

God is merciful Gary. Dead people are dead souls. While we are alive our choices regarding how we relate to God are open but once the doors of life are closed and death envelopes us, the end of the road is reached as far as consciousness goes.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Okay, but without debating things which get debated endlessly here such as soul sleep or how people read the Bible and pick certain verses, what exactly is the harm when I pray for my grandfather for example? This is where I’m trying to get at.
You for example, why don’t you do it? Do you see anything bad in it …. Or dare I say … evil?
Or you can easily check off a box in your brain when a family member dies and you forget about them?

 

[quietthinker]

Okay, but without debating things which get debated endlessly here such as soul sleep or how people read the Bible and pick certain verses, what exactly is the harm when I pray for my grandfather for example? This is where I’m trying to get at.
You for example, why don’t you do it? Do you see anything bad in it …. Or dare I say … evil?
Or you can easily check off a box in your brain when a family member dies and you forget about them?

Misunderstanding in this matter opens the door for demons....it preps you for communication with forces you mistakenly believe are the departed.

 

[GaryAnderson]

Misunderstanding in this matter opens the door for demons....it preps you for communication with forces you mistakenly believe are the departed.

Aha! I knew it ! :)
Thank you for saying it. This makes me smile, this skepticism some have on icons, Virgin Mary or The Dead.

 

[quietthinker]

Aha! I knew it ! :)
Thank you for saying it. This makes me smile, this skepticism some have on icons, Virgin Mary or The Dead.

There are forces operating around us beyond our control Gary. If it were not for God's protection all of us would be sitting ducks, however, if we continue to push God's protection aside because it doesn't suit our immediate understanding, we open ourselves to elements we little understand.
The scripture has given us direction regarding the dead. We ignore it to our own hurt.

 

[GaryAnderson]

There are forces operating around us beyond our control Gary. If it were not for God's protection all of us would be sitting ducks, however, if we continue to push God's protection aside because it doesn't suit our immediate understanding, we open ourselves to elements we little understand.
The scripture has given us direction regarding the dead. We ignore it to our own hurt.

:) I understand.
So when we pray TO Jesus for the souls of the dead, somehow we are going to get an answer from Satan. We also assume that we are going to get an answer at all.
Also when we have a Virgin Mary apparition or a miracle, we automatically assume that this is The Devil, despite millions of people worldwide turning to Christianity and Jesus after these events.
And of course when we apply oil dripping from icons to the sick and some of them get healed from incurable diseases, we automatically assume that this is The Devil again despite these people thanking God with tears in their eyes.

And when we have incense in the church … well I don’t have anything on that one cos most “skeptics” in this board didn’t seem to have a problem with incense …. Unless you have a problem with it and you think it’s The Devil …. Again? :)

 

[quietthinker]

:) I understand.
So when we pray TO Jesus for the souls of the dead, somehow we are going to get an answer from Satan. We also assume that we are going to get an answer at all.
Also when we have a Virgin Mary apparition or a miracle, we automatically assume that this is The Devil, despite millions of people worldwide turning to Christianity and Jesus after these events.
And of course when we apply oil dripping from icons to the sick and some of them get healed from incurable diseases, we automatically assume that this is The Devil again despite these people thanking God with tears in their eyes.

And when we have incense in the church … well I don’t have anything on that one cos most “skeptics” in this board didn’t seem to have a problem with incense …. Unless you have a problem with it and you think it’s The Devil …. Again? :)

If it wasn't convincing to many it would hardly be a ruse Gary. Trusting our senses over and above what the scriptures declare is a sure trap.