Secure Eternal Salvation

[BreadOfLife]

Because that's the words you use when you refer to believing (verb) something.

"I have faith that my cat will climb the Christmas tree again this year."

"That belief has made me decide to keep him outside this year."

It's so simple. You Catholics have made it so difficult. And you did that to rationalize your gospel of works.

You actually expect me to believe that the "faith" you have in your cat being a nuisance is the same kind of "faith" in God that requires love, obedience and hope?
That is utter nonsense.

As for your stale argument about "believing" being a verb and therefore, equates to "faith" - I have repeatedly shown you that even the DEMONS "believe" (verb - James 2:19) but do NOT have "faith".

Catholics don't make anything "difficult" here.
We simply acknowledge what the Scriptures say instead of inventing bizarre little doctrines designed to circumvent the truth of Scripture like YOU do.

 

[bbyrd009]

Believing is something you do. It's an action. Its a verb. That's the word pisteuo.
You can believe in anything

that is your perspective right now maybe, but you might come to see how the last sentence kinda cancels the first one, or that “believing” is more like a kind of mental choice we make, and not pisteuo at all

Faith in the blood of the Son of God for the forgiveness of sin is what saves

bc under the law most every sin requires blood, right?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

that is your perspective right now maybe, but you might come to see how the last sentence kinda cancels the first one, or that “believing” is more like a kind of mental choice we make, and not pisteuo at all

James 2:19 ruins this argument, though.
The demons are believing (pisteuo), but so is Abraham believing (pisteuo) in Romans 4:5.
The object of the believing is what determines if it is salvific or not.
There is no particular word for believing that saves and another for believing that doesn't save.

The demons are believing (pisteuo) that God is one. So what. Believing that doesn't save anybody.
Abraham was believing (pisteuo) God's promise of a son. Believing that does save.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The actual Greek doesn’t say he was “considered” righteous/justified.
It says:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

That is correct. But as I'm telling you, 'justified' has more than one definition. It can mean 'show to be righteous'. And it can mean 'make one righteous'. And we know which definition is being used by context.

We know James is using the word 'justified' in regard to being shown to be righteous by faith by this:

"...I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18​

And we know Paul is using the word 'justified' in regard to being made righteous by this:

"And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. " Romans 3:22​

And so James and Paul are not in contradiction, but rather are talking about two different meanings of justification. Thus the nature of James' argument that a man is justified by, both, faith and works. He is made righteous by faith. His works then show him to have that righteousness. Abraham was made righteous through his faith without works (Romans 4:6). Later, Abraham was shown to be righteous when he offered Isaac on the altar in obedience to God (James 2:21). No contradiction here.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

bc under the law most every sin requires blood, right?

Correct.
Legal justification occurs because God forgives the sin that a person has committed. And that forgiveness is possible because Christ provided his blood as the lawful and just payment for that sin. And so we receive God's forgiveness for our sins by believing in the blood of Christ to secure that forgiveness for us.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You actually expect me to believe that the "faith" you have in your cat being a nuisance is the same kind of "faith" in God that requires love, obedience and hope?
That is utter nonsense.

I expect you to believe that 'believing' is 'believing' no matter what the object of that believing (that faith) might be. (Ironically, your own use of the word 'believe' in your sentence above should be proof of that to you).

It's what you are believing that determines if that 'believing' - that 'faith' - can save you. Believing my cat will climb my Christmas tree again this year won't save me, despite the fact that I very much believe that. Believing that the blood of Christ is sufficient to pay the just penalty for my sins will!

 

[bbyrd009]

Correct.
Legal justification occurs because God forgives the sin that a person has committed. And that forgiveness is possible because Christ provided his blood as the lawful and just payment for that sin. And so we receive God's forgiveness for our sins by believing in the blood of Christ to secure that forgiveness for us.

ok, best of luck to you ferris

 

[Ferris Bueller]

ok, best of luck to you ferris

Isn't your faith in the blood of Jesus to forgive your sins?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As for your stale argument about "believing" being a verb and therefore, equates to "faith"

I already showed you that Paul equates 'believing' and 'faith' in Romans 4:5.

5 ...to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith (his believing) is credited as righteousness. ​

It's right there staring you right in your face. Paul equates 'believes' (the same believing the demons do in James 2:19) with 'faith' (pistis). Believing is having faith. But you say they are not the same.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Catholics don't make anything "difficult" here.
We simply acknowledge what the Scriptures say instead of inventing bizarre little doctrines designed to circumvent the truth of Scripture...

Except Romans 4:5.
Catholics don't acknowledge that scripture.
If you did you'd see that 'believes' does in fact equate to 'faith'.

 

[bbyrd009]

Isn't your faith in the blood of Jesus to forgive your sins?

well, if you “believe” that Yah needed a sacrifice for you to be ok with Him, thats as good a place to start as any, ferris; you have an acceptable sacrifice. But i would keep in mind that Yah went looking for Adam and Eve after they had sinned in the garden :)

and if that sounds “deceptive,” i would invoke the story of Jacob and Esau.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The actual Greek doesn’t say he was “considered” righteous/justified.
It says:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

That is correct. But as I'm telling you, 'justified' has more than one definition. It can mean 'show to be righteous'. And it can mean 'make one righteous'. And we know which definition is being used by context.

We know James is using the word 'justified' in regard to being shown to be righteous by faith by this:

"...I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18

And we know Paul is using the word 'justified' in regard to being made righteous by this:

"And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. " Romans 3:22

And so James and Paul are not in contradiction, but rather are talking about two different meanings of justification. Thus the nature of James' argument that a man is justified by, both, faith and works. He is made righteous by faith. His works then show him to have that righteousness. Abraham was made righteous through his faith without works (Romans 4:6). Later, Abraham was shown to be righteous when he offered Isaac on the altar in obedience to God (James 2:21). No contradiction here.

Why do you feel the need to complicate and pervert the Word of God??
James and Paul are talking about the SAME justification.

Paul is saying that justification come through FAITH in Christ.
This includes, Belief, Trust, Surrender, Hope, Love and Obedience. It is NOT just “Belief”.
DEMONS “believe” in God (James 2:19). Do you actually equate this with Christian Faith??

James is telling his readers that belief (pis'-tis) is NOT enough - and that they need have FAITH (pis'-tis).
SAME word – TWO different meanings.

Your semantic arguments are silly and immature, frankly.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Except Romans 4:5.
Catholics don't acknowledge that scripture.
If you did you'd see that 'believes' does in fact equate to 'faith'.

What an idiotic statement.
Catholics are the ones who showed YOU and the rest of the WORLD that Scripture. Why would we “not acknowledge” it??

WE simple understand what it means – whereas, YOU are still confused . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I already showed you that Paul equates 'believing' and 'faith' in Romans 4:5.
5 ...to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith (his believing) is credited as righteousness.

It's right there staring you right in your face. Paul equates 'believes' (the same believing the demons do in James 2:19) with 'faith' (pistis). Believing is having faith. But you say they are not the same.

WRONG again.

Why do you keep refusing to accept that “belief” is just that and is NOT faith.
The DEMONS believe (pis'-tis/pist-yoo'-o).

WHY is it necessary to keep showing you this?? Are you SO full of spiritual pride that you refuse the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit??

a. Abraham had FAITH – belief, truest, expectation and a total willingness to do God’s will. THAT’S the gist of Rom, 4:5. – NOT that he simply “believed” like the demons.

b. The demons have BELIEF- understanding who God is and fear of Him.

SAME word – TWO different meanings. This is what James 2:19 says.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I expect you to believe that 'believing' is 'believing' no matter what the object of that believing (that faith) might be. (Ironically, your own use of the word 'believe' in your sentence above should be proof of that to you).

It's what you are believing that determines if that 'believing' - that 'faith' - can save you. Believing my cat will climb my Christmas tree again this year won't save me, despite the fact that I very much believe that. Believing that the blood of Christ is sufficient to pay the just penalty for my sins will!

That’s a crock.

Believing that your cat will be a nuisance is NOT faith. It is simply expectation, which is only ONE ingredient of faith. You’re just deducing from past experience that your cat will do that.

Faith requires FAR more than that, as Scripture teaches (James 2:14-26, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6), Matt. 25:31-46).

It’s NO wonder why you’re so confused . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The actual Greek doesn’t say he was “considered” righteous/justified.
It says:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

No kidding!
I explained to you that they are interpreting the particular definition of 'justified' that James is using!
Read my posts!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Why do you feel the need to complicate and pervert the Word of God??
James and Paul are talking about the SAME justification.

If they are, then they are in complete and utter contradiction. Which they can't be, or else we can just throw our Bibles away and go back to our sins.

I know you will never go against your Catholic overlords but you have to realize that there are those of us who know and understand that 'justified' has more than one meaning and usage. Paul is using the word in regard to being made righteous (receiving the righteousness that is from God), and James is using it in regard to being shown to be righteous (your works showing that you are righteous). And that is how and why they are not in contradiction with each other, and why we don't have to invent reasons to make it so they are not in contradiction. I don't care what you say about it, you and the Catholic church can not change the fact that there is more than one definition and usage of the word 'justified'. I'm not listening to you or your priests just because you have convinced yourselves that your priesthood is Christ on earth. They ain't!

 

[robert derrick]

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

Filthy grace dreamers never move on to perfection from repentance of dead works, because they have never repented of dead works.

By their own testimony they are yet still in sins and so are still repenting. OSAS is for them continuing in sins, and so continuing in repentance, because they have never repented.

They are always repenting, but never repented.

They are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth of eternal salvation for them that obey Him, and so they are ever repenting and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth of eternal salvation for them that have repented.

They are ever stuck in repenting mode.

 

[robert derrick]

They are really no different than jews.

The jews looked to their works of the law and thought it made them righteous. Only to be told that was wrong. Yet they still had faith in self and their organization not in God.

Their security is in their works. Not Christ and his promise.

Only God can help them really..

Only God can help them really..

Well, they've always got Mary for a back up.

Mary is Plan B for them not saved by Jesus only.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Only God can help them really..

Well, they've always got Mary for a back up.

Mary is Plan B for them not saved by Jesus only.

You think about it.

If I was going to believe I have to earn my salvation. I would be catholic. They have the most options..