Secure Eternal Salvation

[BreadOfLife]

It is about individuals. A nation of individuals who fell as a nation long before Christ showed up. And individuals who, alive at the time, responded to Christ's gospel message. The nation of individuals who fell away and the individuals that are alive when Christ appeared and have always been in their fallen state and are saved by Christ are not the same individuals. That's what you're not getting. Protestant OSASer's don't get that either.

The prodigal son represents the nation as a whole, individuals who were born and raised in their national rejection of the old covenant. That is the state of Israel when Jesus came to them. But through his ministry some came back to the Father as new covenant believers. This is not a parable about a person being saved then falling away and Christ bringing them back.

Look I know you won't get it. You never will. I understand that. You're locked in the Catholic paradigm of thought. Just as OSASer's are locked in the OSAS paradigm of thought. I'm not concerned about it anymore. I've come to realize and now accept that most are going to stay exactly where they are at no matter what you show them.

You're dead wrong.

Like I showed you before – this is a narrow and myopic view of this Parable. You’re missing the polyvalent ramifications because you refuse to see CONTEXT of it.
Jesus tells this parable in response to the fact that the Pharisees were judging Him because of the fact that he was spending time with Tax Collectors and sinners

In CONTEXT (I know you hate that word) – Jesus was NOT talking about Israel - but about the fact that these people he was hanging out with were repentant and God’s willingness to forgive a repentant child of His.

Put your thinking cap on:
- The Prodigal son (Tax Collectors/sinners) returns and begs for forgiveness with humility.
- The older brother (Pharisees) complains to the Father about the younger son and wonders why he is getting all of this attention when HE (the older brother) as always been faithful.
- The Father tells him that he shouldn’t be complaining – and that it is right to celebrate because the younger was dead in sin and had has come back to life again.

Everything in Scripture points to CHRIST and the effects of His sacrifice.
The Parable of the Prodigal Son is NO different . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

WRONG again.

You cannot have true faith witho0ut ALL THREE of the virtues Paul speaks about in 1 Cot. 13:1-13 -
Faith (belief/pis'-tis)
Hope (expectation of salvation/el-pece')
Charity (love/ag-ah'-pay)

That's the entire point of this passage.

Like James's explanation of true faith in James 2:19, Paul explains that you can "believe" until the cows come home - but that is NOT true faith. Once again - YOU are confused because you don't understand that the NT wasn't written in English - but Koine GREEK. As I showed you before - the SAME word (pis'-tis) is used for "belief" and "faith".
And unless you apply the correct CONYEXT of the passages, you wind up confused as you are.

Abraham had faith all by itself apart from work and was justified (Romans 4:6).
You don't believe that.
That's why you're Catholic and we're not.

But don't misunderstand. Abraham's faith that justified him without works went on to work, just as the faith that justifies apart from works will do. But the work he did later in no way shape or form MADE him righteous. He did not get the righteousness that comes FROM God by doing any work. He secured it entirely by faith without work - Romans 4:6.

This is the very essence of the Protestant Reformation. Righteousness is a gift given to a person through their faith without works. Catholics literally can not see this truth staring right at them in the pages of the Bible. Abraham was made righteous without works. He did NOTHING to be made righteous, except believe the promises.

 

[bbyrd009]

well, so you say

Abraham had faith all by itself apart from work and was justified

this is why i suggest getting fam with the kinds of "belief" OT
Abraham likely did not "have faith" in Yah at that point, at least the way we hear that term now?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

John 17:20-23
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may all be ONE even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

The perpetually-splintering mess that is Protestantism doesn't fit this model.

Look again, friend.
It's right there staring you in the face and you can't see it.
You can't see it because you're Catholic.
That's the problem with sectarian religious organizations, Catholic and Protestant.
They only allow you to see what they tell you to see.
I mean, in the Catholic church they won't let you see any other way than their way, lol.
At least in the Protestant churches a degree of freedom of conscience is allowed. They don't allow doctrinal thought outside of their own in that you just won't be able to see anything else. But the Catholic church literally commands you that you can not, and will not see anything else. That's why I call it a cult.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

well, so you say

this is why i suggest getting fam with the kinds of "belief" OT
Abraham likely did not "have faith" in Yah at that point, at least the way we hear that term now?

Paul explains very clearly that Abraham had faith in God.

"...He is our father in the presence of God, in whom he believed" Romans 4:17

"...he did not waver through disbelief in the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”" Romans 4:20-22​

And that his faith is our example of faith.

"23Now the words “it was credited to him” were written not only for Abraham, 24but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead." Romans 4:23-24​

If you want to know about 'faith' (and the verb form of faith - 'believing'), and what is believed, and who is believed, learn it from our example, Abraham, the father of faith. I think the Catholics have completely ruined and misrepresented this very simple topic of faith and believing. They've messed it up with their works salvation mindset. That's why the Reformation happened.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus was NOT talking about Israel - but about the fact that these people he was hanging out with were repentant and God’s willingness to forgive a repentant child of His.

Show me where these very sinners in Jesus' day were once saved people, then fell away into unbelief, and are now repenting again and coming back to their salvation. You have to do that because you are using the parable as the proof that Hebrews 6:4-6 does not mean a born again person is not allowed to repent to the gospel of Christ a second time.

Now, time for you to stay in context.
The people of Israel that Christ came to were never saved that this could even remotely be evidence that a born again person is able to be forgiven after going back to unbelief. They didn't go back to unbelief, they've always been in it! They are a nation of individual people who inherited their fathers rejection of the old covenant. He's bringing them back to God from their rejection of the old covenant to the acceptance of the New Covenant. This has nothing to do with a born again person being able to repent again toward Christ and the gospel.

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul explains very clearly that Abraham had faith in God

well, in English, via Aramaic, but ok

 

[BreadOfLife]

Look again, friend.
It's right there staring you in the face and you can't see it.
You can't see it because you're Catholic.
That's the problem with sectarian religious organizations, Catholic and Protestant.
They only allow you to see what they tell you to see.
I mean, in the Catholic church they won't let you see any other way than their way, lol.

At least in the Protestant churches a degree of freedom of conscience is allowed. They don't allow doctrinal thought outside of their own in that you just won't be able to see anything else. But the Catholic church literally commands you that you can not, and will not see anything else. That's why I call it a cult.

Thanks for that idiotic and completely dishonest dissertation on the teachings of the Catholic Church.

First of all – WHO told you that a Catholic “MUST” be of the exact same thought with the Church on every subject? This asinine statement illustrates the fact that you are NOT equipped to discuss this matter – just as you are NOT equipped to debate Scripture.

In fact – MUCH of Scripture is not explicitly interpreted by the Church, giving Catholics the freedom to interpret on their own. HOWEVER – on doctrinal and dogmatic matters – a faithful Catholic won’t see it any other way than how the Church has taught down through the centuries.

In other words, if God shows you a duck – and you insist that it’s a cow – then YOU are wrong.
A Catholic can discover MANY things about God on his own by reading the Scriptures. Yet, in the end, he will see ALL of the qualities about the Triune God that the Church has taught.

Do your homework before making these kinds of stupid comments . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Show me where these very sinners in Jesus' day were once saved people, then fell away into unbelief, and are now repenting again and coming back to their salvation. You have to do that because you are using the parable as the proof that Hebrews 6:4-6 does not mean a born again person is not allowed to repent to the gospel of Christ a second time.

Now, time for you to stay in context.
The people of Israel that Christ came to were never saved that this could even remotely be evidence that a born again person is able to be forgiven after going back to unbelief. They didn't go back to unbelief, they've always been in it! They are a nation of individual people who inherited their fathers rejection of the old covenant. He's bringing them back to God from their rejection of the old covenant to the acceptance of the New Covenant. This has nothing to do with a born again person being able to repent again toward Christ and the gospel.

Open your eyes, man.

Nobody said that the sinners and tac collectors were “once saved” people. They were JEWS – children of God through the Law – and THAT is what the story of the Prodigal Son is about.

It also applies to EVERY child of Cod who sins against Him, WE are children of God through the New Covenant.

Jesus’s message was NEVER narrowed down to a single group or just a select few. He Parables ALWAYS had a universal message – that was polyvalent in their revelation.

Sorry for the big word, but “polyvalent” simply means that there is a broader target with multiple meanings.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Abraham had faith all by itself apart from work and was justified (Romans 4:6).
You don't believe that.
That's why you're Catholic and we're not.

But don't misunderstand. Abraham's faith that justified him without works went on to work, just as the faith that justifies apart from works will do. But the work he did later in no way shape or form MADE him righteous. He did not get the righteousness that comes FROM God by doing any work. He secured it entirely by faith without work - Romans 4:6.

This is the very essence of the Protestant Reformation. Righteousness is a gift given to a person through their faith without works. Catholics literally can not see this truth staring right at them in the pages of the Bible. Abraham was made righteous without works. He did NOTHING to be made righteous, except believe the promises.

Why do you keep insisting that “Belief” and “Faith” are the same thing??
That’s why James says that Abraham was made righteous by his WORkS.
James 2:21-22
Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he DID when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he DID.

Are James and Paul contradicting each other?
Only an ignorant person would think so.

They are talking about BOTH sides of the SAME coin:
- Abraham had faith (belief, hope, love) that was credited to him as righteousness.
- James goes further to explain HOW Abraham cooperated with God’s grace to attain righteousness.

Your narrowness of mind coupled with your cherry-picking of Scripture has left you in a precarious Lone Ranger position that is condemned by Scripture.

 

[Taken]

Look again, friend.
It's right there staring you in the face and you can't see it.
You can't see it because you're Catholic.

Never mind Scripture....the self-proclaimed Forum “teacher” has spoken...As he does to everyone...WRONG....but you must be special because he has declared you...dead wrong.

 

[Taken]

Secure Eternal Salvation
OP ^

Yes!
Applies to those who HAVE or WILL receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Why do you keep insisting that “Belief” and “Faith” are the same thing??

Because that's the words you use when you refer to believing (verb) something.

"I have faith that my cat will climb the Christmas tree again this year."

"That belief has made me decide to keep him outside this year."​

It's so simple. You Catholics have made it so difficult. And you did that to rationalize your gospel of works.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That’s why James says that Abraham was made righteous by his WORkS.
James 2:21-22
Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he DID when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he DID.

No, James is not saying Abraham was MADE righteous by what he did. That's not the context of his teaching.

Right in the version of James 2:21 that you're quoting 'justified' is defined as being 'considered righteous', not made righteous. And that's what I've been saying. Abraham's actions showed him to be righteous, not made him righteous. He was considered righteous by what he did, not made righteous by what he did.

See, 'justified' can mean either 'to be made righteous', or 'to be shown to be righteous'. As you can see in the very version you're using the particular definition of 'justified' that James is using in James 2:21 and James 2:24 is 'shown to be righteous'. And as we can see, that matches the context of James' discussion - showing your faith through what you do. The faith you already have and are saved by...

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. " James 2:18​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Nobody said that the sinners and tac collectors were “once saved” people. They were JEWS – children of God through the Law – and THAT is what the story of the Prodigal Son is about.

It also applies to EVERY child of Cod who sins against Him, WE are children of God through the New Covenant.

How does the Parable of the Prodigal Son prove that?
You're just saying it means that.
Now you have to produce proof that the Parable of the Prodigal Son means a born again Christian can fall away to unbelief and still come back to faith in the gospel, and that Hebrews 6:4-6 doesn't mean he can't.

 

[bbyrd009]

If you want to know about 'faith' (and the verb form of faith - 'believing')

unless believing is passive, and faith is the verb…

, and what is believed, and who is believed, learn it from our example, Abraham, the father of faith

hence the suggestion to study the five forms of belief, wherein hopefully this binary “a or not a” perception of “having faith” might be superseded, and our “facts” might be overcome

 

[Ferris Bueller]

unless believing is passive, and faith is the verb…

Believing is something you do. It's an action. Its a verb. That's the word pisteuo.
You can believe in anything. The demons believe God is one. What they don't believe in is the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

Faith is something you have. It's a noun. It's a thing. That's the word pistis.
If you believe something that's called a belief. You have faith - a belief - that something is true.
I'm not aware of a word that differentiates 'belief' from 'faith' in the Bible.

Even though there is a connotation attached to our English word 'faith' that our word 'belief' does not have, there's still only one Greek word for 'belief' and 'faith', the noun pistis. The context shows if the faith or believing being spoken of is saving faith by what that faith is in. For example, believing that God is one won't save a flea. That's not the faith that saves. Even though it is faith, nonetheless. Faith in the blood of the Son of God for the forgiveness of sin is what saves. And that faith is evidenced, not secured, by what it does. Just as what Abraham did was the evidence of his faith in God's promise of a son, not the procurer of his faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

hence the suggestion to study the five forms of belief, wherein hopefully this binary “a or not a” perception of “having faith” might be superseded, and our “facts” might be overcome

If you want to share those five forms, I'm interested. I'm always willing to adjust my theological constructs to new information if necessary.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, James is not saying Abraham was MADE righteous by what he did. That's not the context of his teaching.

Right in the version of James 2:21 that you're quoting 'justified' is defined as being 'considered righteous', not made righteous. And that's what I've been saying. Abraham's actions showed him to be righteous, not made him righteous. He was considered righteous by what he did, not made righteous by what he did.

See, 'justified' can mean either 'to be made righteous', or 'to be shown to be righteous'. As you can see in the very version you're using the particular definition of 'justified' that James is using in James 2:21 and James 2:24 is 'shown to be righteous'. And as we can see, that matches the context of James' discussion - showing your faith through what you do. The faith you already have and are saved by...

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. " James 2:18​

This is a semantic argument.

The actual Greek doesn’t say he was “considered” righteous/justified.
It says:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

For sake of argument, however – even if we go with YOUR strict definition, it STILL doesn’t show that “Faith” and “Belief” are the same thing. James would be a fool – not to mention the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to write verse 19.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. EVEN THE DEMONS BELIEVE —and shudder!

 

[BreadOfLife]

How does the Parable of the Prodigal Son prove that?
You're just saying it means that.
Now you have to produce proof that the Parable of the Prodigal Son means a born again Christian can fall away to unbelief and still come back to faith in the gospel, and that Hebrews 6:4-6 doesn't mean he can't.

I’ve ALREADY shown you this.

The fact that you deny the truth of Scripture doesn’t make it “untrue”. It simply illustrates your refusal to accept it.

And I already explained the CONTEXT of Heb. 6:4-6 to you and the fact that Jesus didn’t lie in Matt. 12:30-32 like YOU think He did

ONE more time, regarding the polyvalent revelation of this Parable:
- The JEWS were the children of God through the Old Covenant.
- As Christians- WE are children of God through the New Covenant.

The Gospel message applies to us ALL – not just a select few.