Secure Eternal Salvation

[Ferris Bueller]

. . . And then there are those who think they have secure eternal salvation but discover they don't.

Luk 13:27-28 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' (28) There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

And I think this is the fundamental danger of OSAS.
It fools people into thinking they are really saved when they aren't at all because they have so completely divorced the matter of obedience from salvation. And so they don't know that their obedience is the sign that they are born again and ready to meet Jesus when he comes back. It's a very dangerous theology. IMO, it's been the ruin of the church in these end times. It's the vehicle through which the end times apostasy is occurring.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Then your understanding that the Church must contain only sinless people is absolute idiocy.

If that's what I was saying you'd be correct.

Remember, you're the one that says the church is an organization. I say it's the sum total of true believers.
So, with that in mind, you are the one that is claiming the Catholic church organization and it's leaders are the representatives of Christ and the Apostles just as when they themselves were here in the flesh. I don't think any reasonable person would think the theological and moral corruption of the Catholic church organization and it's leaders is in any way an accurate representation of Christ and the Apostles in the flesh.

Even the Twelve hand-picked disciples of Jesus included an apostate.

What mission is God accomplishing through the corruption of the leadership of the Catholic church that we need to accept it because Judas was among the Apostles at one time?

Judas was selected to do what he was selected to do. Then he was removed and the remaining Apostles were filled with the Spirit and became examples to the body of believers.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

WHY would I try to prove that with these articles?? That was never my intention.

I almost said in that post that you did that whether you realized it or not, lol.

My posting them was merely to show you that the Catholic Church doesn't have exclusivity when it comes to sinners. Your moronic assertion that it couldn't be the Church established by Christ because there are sinful people among the true believers is a complete failure to understand the purpose of the Church..

My assertion is that the Catholic church organization can't be the church endorsed and supported by Christ because it is corrupt, not maturing and growing up into the stature of Christ. Church organizations don't do that, lol. Individual believers do!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I'll make you a deal -
YOU show me the explici6t teaching of Sola Scriptura from Scripture - and I will give you the verse YOU are demanding.

Here's what the Bible says about the fallacy of "Scripture alone" . . .
2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

I did not know I was supposed to adhere to and defend Sola Scriptura, lol. You're just not getting it. I'm only Protestant in that I do not agree with various Catholic teachings. I'm not Protestant because I agree with Luther and Calvin, lol.

Now, no more excuses. We need your exegesis of Hebrews 6:4-6 to back up your interpretation of it. I did that for you. Now you have to do that for me.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Whereas ALL sin damages our relationship with God - grave or mortal sin cuts us off from God's grace (causes death - 1 John 5:17).

Just to make sure I understand...
Does it mean a person is no longer justified through faith in Christ if they commit a mortal sin? And if so, no longer being justified means no longer being saved, right?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

For example – where do Protestants from different denominations or “Lone Ranger” believers go when addressing the concerns that Jesus described here:

Matt. 18:15-17
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Just because the true church of God is the sum total of all individual believers, not an official organization/denomination, that doesn't mean there are not various believers among us chosen and gifted to operate in leadership roles, gifted by God to watch over us and teach us and guide us. We don't need the Catholic organization to be the functioning body of Christ. We don't need a particular Protestant denomination to do that either. We just need believers, and all our various gifts.

 

[robert derrick]

If God willed I never sin again, I wouldn't. And in heaven He does and I won't!

OSAS is a temporal salvation for carnal minded willful sinners, who love believing God wills His people to keep on sinning.

Will has many variations of meaning in Greek

And they learn enough 'Greek' to argue over what 'is', is.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

After reading these Scriptures, OSAS scholars during the happy hippy generation, began to learn how many ways 'will' and 'God forbid' could be redefined.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There are a few here who close their posts with that remark. "nice try."
The RRC isn't Christ's church. It's the other one's.

It is everything God condemned, making idols of the dead, dictating heresy and a literal anti-christ doctrine so to glorify the edifice of the church and the cult of man.

This is where those who join Christian forums and insist, even open threads, that OSAS (Once Saved Always/Eternally Saved, Once Sealed Always Sealed) , is false!

For RRC it is indeed untrue.

For Christians it is not. Laboring to stay saved keeps the church robed in gold.
Jesus was sold to the Sanhedrin for silver.
Different currency, save evil.

You’re absolutely correct.
The “RRC” is NOT Christ’s Church. On fact – I don’t even know WHAT you’re talking about.

The Catholic Church is Christ’s Church.
Whatever “RRC” is – it’s not anything I’ve ever heard of.

 

[robert derrick]

It is interesting in OSAS how salvation is so utterly controlled by God, yet he does not give that same grace in the matter of actually living for him.

Excellent point.

All that need be read from them, is their own answer in response to being questioned about willfully sinning in this life:

If God willed I never sin again, I wouldn't. And in heaven He does and I won't!

There is no argument nor fellowship with them that actually want to believe that willful sin is not forbidden of God, but only after the resurrection.

They are just case studies of the deceived children of disobedience, and how feverishly the carnal mind can work to excuse it by grace.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[BreadOfLife]

NONSENSE!
Pedophile priests exist in the 21st century! The last pope knew, and covered it up. This pope knows and they're not excommunicated, they're not put into the hands of the authorities!

And they are outnumbered by the amount of Protestant molesters and pedophiles, according to FBI, police and insurance statistics.
As I educated you in my last post – these statistics are ALL listed by Protestant author, Philip Jenkins in his book, Pedophiles and Priests.

So, clean up your OWN mess before you start pointing hypocritical fingers . . .

For God's sake! Readers! If you want to know for a FACT the RRC is anti-gospel Christ all you have to do is realize their doctrine of Purgatory is proof in itself!

What does the doctrine of purge-atory teach you? TThat Jesus failed to take the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. That your repentance does not wash away your sins when you believe in Jesus. That you are not reborn in him, and his Holy Spirit takes up residence in you, and you're baptized by immersion, not a sprinkle when you're a newborn and that's it. When you are unable to make a choice to follow Christ because your family took you to a priest for that sprinkle. Which is not what Jesus taught about Baptism nor is it what he exampled when he himself was Baptized before he began his ministry.

Purge-atory, besides calling Jesus a failure, is where sins that remain on your soul after you die are "cleansed" away! Oh, but you'll get early release! How? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If your family pays the church, this is called "Indulgences" (what an apt term), though the church claims this practice no longer exists, which is a lie, your soul will be freed early from Purge-atory.

Ruminate on that for a while.
You're dead!
Your family pays real money to a church. Prices vary.
And afterward your soul is set free from suffering in Purge-atory.
How's that happen? A copy of the bank draft gets faxed?

Emailed? Texted?
"Vatican Bank!" - Yeah, it's a thing. And they're billionaires!
Hard to figure out why that is though.....
Now we no longer have to wonder why there are those who insist OSAS is a lie.
If you're eternally saved, selling salvation goes out the window.
OSAS =Free Irrevocable Gift of God's Grace
vs.
RRC Roman Rite Church CS= Conditional $alvation
One of those things is not Christs other

And this is perhaps your most idiotic and ignorant rant yet.

Your grasp of the BIBLICAL doctrine of Purgatory (2 Macc. 42-46, Matt. 5:25-26, 1 Cor. 3:12-15, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32-35, Luke 12:58-59) is about as asinine and stupid as anything I’ve read in the past few days on this forum – and that is saying A LOT. It is not BECAUSE of what Jesus did on the cross that we are given the gift of final purification – and NOT because of any “inadequacy”.

Finally – an Indulgence doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with money or “buying” somebody out of Purgatory. For a short time in Europe prior to the Protestant Revolt – this was an abuse by some members of the clergy. The most famous case was Johan Tetzel in Germany.

This has NEVER been a teaching of the Catholic Church and was dealt with back then – so YOUR moronic revisionist views of the truth are about as morally and intellectually bankrupt as it gets.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Every believer growing up in and living for Christ is the fulfillment of Jesus' words.
Your problem lies in how you define the church. It's not an organization. It's a group of believers. Organizations are doomed to corruption. Individual believers aren't.

The Church is the BODY of Christ.
It is a VISIBLE Body (Matt. 15:4) that is united in faith and doctrine (2 Thess. 2:15) as ONE (John 17:20-23).

It is not a perpetually-splintering and scattered mess of "believers" who ALL teach different and competing doctrines.

 

[robert derrick]

The RRC isn't Christ's church. It's the other one's. It is everything God condemned.

So says them that willfully commit sins condemned of God.

At least Catholics don't write off obedience to their faith by 'grace'.

If I forced into a choice of church attendance, I would rather go to the Catholic services, where I could easily dismiss the stuff not in Scripture, while obeying the things of Scripture in the gospel.

I would be puking at every service of OSAS trying to convince themselves repenting of willful sins in our bodies, is not until after the resurrection.

I would rather hear firm preaching of obedience for eternal salvation, though marred by certain 'sacred traditions' of men, far more than putting up with liberalised happy hippy speak against obeying Jesus for His eternal salvation.

Catholics that do not go into the idolatry of the sacred Roman stuff, are far better brothers and sisters in Christ, than the utter hypocrisy of unsaved OSAS:

If God willed I never sin again, I wouldn't. And in heaven He does and I won't!

 

[robert derrick]

If God willed I never sin again, I wouldn't. And in heaven He does and I won't!

So says the ones who declare how much they really really hate sins.

They hate it only after loving it, all the way to the grave.

Like a pro football coach talked about how much he so hated losing, while continuing to lose.

OSAS is salvation for Esau, who really hated the results of his sins, not the sins themselves.

OSAS is lip service to the Lord, Lord on steroids.

I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

Eternal salvation is only for them that hate sin enough to obey Jesus and not do them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It is a VISIBLE Body (Matt. 15:4) that is united in faith and doctrine (2 Thess. 2:15) as ONE (John 17:20-23).

It hasn't been that since almost the time of the Apostles, lol. Acts 20:29-30

It is not a perpetually-splintering and scattered mess of "believers" who ALL teach different and competing doctrines.

When you discard the denomination part, including your denomination, it's not a mess at all. But otherwise, it is just as you describe.
All thanks to godless, unsaved, Spirit-less men who took over and corrupted the church not too long after the time of the Apostles.
But, nonetheless, despite these ungodly men, God has preserved those who are truly his as they wander through deserts and mountains hiding in caves and holes in the ground from the persecutions and assassinations of the self-appointed fake church - Hebrews 11:38.

 

[Pythagorean12]

And they are outnumbered by the amount of Protestant molesters and pedophiles, according to FBI, police and insurance statistics.
As I educated you in my last post – these statistics are ALL listed by Protestant author, Philip Jenkins in his book, Pedophiles and Priests.

So, clean up your OWN mess before you start pointing hypocritical fingers . . .

And this is perhaps your most idiotic and ignorant rant yet.

Your grasp of the BIBLICAL doctrine of Purgatory (2 Macc. 42-46, Matt. 5:25-26, 1 Cor. 3:12-15, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32-35, Luke 12:58-59) is about as asinine and stupid as anything I’ve read in the past few days on this forum – and that is saying A LOT. It is not BECAUSE of what Jesus did on the cross that we are given the gift of final purification – and NOT because of any “inadequacy”.

Finally – an Indulgence doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with money or “buying” somebody out of Purgatory. For a short time in Europe prior to the Protestant Revolt – this was an abuse by some members of the clergy. The most famous case was Johan Tetzel in Germany.

This has NEVER been a teaching of the Catholic Church and was dealt with back then – so YOUR moronic revisionist views of the truth are about as morally and intellectually bankrupt as it gets.

Your dismissing child molestation and rape by RRC priests in order to point to protestant clergy as worse.

WOW!
That's sick.

Actual Catholics know indulgences are still part of the church.

Does the Church Still Believe in Indulgences? - Ascension Press Media.


Thanks for losing your temper and showing us you're here to stoke controversy between Christians and RRC Catholics.

Indulgences.
"Indulgences remain a most
sacrament in the Catholic Church today. While only God can forgive sin according to Catholic theology, the church continues to teach that an indulgence can cancel the temporal penalty the sinner may incur. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find a teaching of, or a validation for, indulgences.
Indulgences – His Word Today

 

[BreadOfLife]

Just to make sure I understand...
Does it mean a person is no longer justified through faith in Christ if they commit a mortal sin? And if so, no longer being justified means no longer being saved, right?

When you have committed sin that causes death (spiritual death) - then you are cut off from God's grace unless you are reconciled to Him through repentance and contrition.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Just because the true church of God is the sum total of all individual believers, not an official organization/denomination, that doesn't mean there are not various believers among us chosen and gifted to operate in leadership roles, gifted by God to watch over us and teach us and guide us. We don't need the Catholic organization to be the functioning body of Christ. We don't need a particular Protestant denomination to do that either. We just need believers, and all our various gifts.

More nonsense . . .

As I showed you earlier – the Bible tells us that even the DEMONS believe in the truths about God (James 2:19).

Christ’s Church is ONE unified, monolithic Body of Christians (Matt. 15:4, John17:20-23). It is NOT a loose dispersion of leaderless people. Christ’s Christ’s Church IS an organized Body and has ALWAYS had leadership which continues to this day (Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23, 1 Thess. 5:12 , 1 Tim. 5:17, 1 Cor. 12:28, 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Tim. 2:2).

YOUR perverted view of the Church is a man-made invention . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I did not know I was supposed to adhere to and defend Sola Scriptura, lol. You're just not getting it. I'm only Protestant in that I do not agree with various Catholic teachings. I'm not Protestant because I agree with Luther and Calvin, lol.

Now, no more excuses. We need your exegesis of Hebrews 6:4-6 to back up your interpretation of it. I did that for you. Now you have to do that for me.

So you reject the idea that Scripture is our sole authority?
So, you accept the Christian belief that Sacred Tradition goes hand-in-hand with the Scriptures in its Authority?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

NOT a loose dispersion of leaderless people.

The sum total of individual believers trusting in Christ is not leaderless.
As I said, there are those among us who have been given gifts to be leaders and guides for the body.
They become apparent when us true trusting, believing people meet together.
We don't need the Catholic organization to do that. That's why they've lied to you Catholics and made you think you need them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As I showed you earlier – the Bible tells us that even the DEMONS believe in the truths about God (James 2:19).

You'll have to start understanding that 'believer' means someone who trusts in the ministry and sacrifice of Christ, not just knows the truth about it. As I explained to you, demons who know and believe the truth about the existence of Christ and his Sonship do not trust in Christ, lol.