Secure Eternal Salvation

[robert derrick]

it is the Original Tree of Christianity

All these claims of a group being the 'original tree' is hogwash. Just like those calling themselves 'Jews' claim to be the 'original roots' of the tree.

The 'original' green tree of the God of Israel was the House of Israel and of Judah in the OT, from which all the natural branches were broken off at the cross, and is now the body of Christ with all new branches grafted in.

Of which Mary is one, who is in the heavenlies awaiting the resurrection of her body with the rest. Both David's and her dead bodies are still decayed to bones. Somewhere on earth.

The Roman Catholic church didn't begin until the reign of Constantine, when he made Christianity the official state religion of the Empire.

And so the Pontifex Maximus of the old roman religion, named himself for the first time, Pope, and dutifully had Christianity brought in as the state religion in Rome.

Unfortunately he also couldn't just let go of the old Roman religion, so he had old Vesta renamed Mary.

The whole Mariology stuff is just efforts to keep the old Roman religion of Vesta and her Sacred Fire around on the coattails of Christianity.

They are called the 'Sacred traditions', which are from the old pagan religion, to be kept alongside Christ of the Scriptures.

If the Catholics would drop the Roman stuff, they'd be just fine for Christ.

One day, all people confessing Jesus will need choose Him only for the resurrection, or be broken off altogether from His body and left for dead on earth, just as the natural seed of Abraham was at the cross.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Because you lack the maturity to accept that I conceded the fact that I replied to your initial response in error so you keep harping on it. Probably because it’s the only “victory” you’ve had in our dialogue . . .

Just so I don't misunderstand...you believe that you have to be re-justified over and over again?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Thank you for admitting that.

The Catholic Church is not a “denominiatio0n”

That's not what I said.
I said the true church of God is composed of individual believers, not a denomination of believers. There is no denomination of true believers. That includes your denomination.

As to your 2nd unbiblical fallacy on RED – Christ’s Church is not a “hidden” gaggle of Lone Ranger believers.

They are only hidden in that they can not be identified in a single denomination.
We are mingled throughout the various denominations that man has constructed, including the Catholic denomination. There are probably some genuine believers attending Catholic churches.

It is a visible entity, a shining city on a hill that cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14). It is the Bod of Christ on earth – not the hidden body PARTS of Christ.

I don't think a gay pedophile priest constitutes the body of Christ.
That right there alone should show you that the body of Christ does not exist in a denomination. It's the sum total of true believers scattered amongst the organizations of men and the corruption within them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I find it interesting that you think a person who doesn't believe anymore is not evidence that they do not believe anymore.

Well I do not believe that. but when a person make a profession of faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus- they become a believer. they can go thr0ough periods of disbelief for some reason, but that doesn't cause them to forfeit the faith they used to become a believer. It sounds paradoxical but is not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And this is perhaps your most naïve – and ignorant response.

The Catholic Church didn’t start calling itself the Universal Church in the 16th century when you man-made Protestant factions were being assembled. It has been called this since the time of the Apostles. I even quoted Ignatius of Antioch, who was a disciple of the Apostle John – who was presumable STILL ALIVE when Ignatius wrote about the “Catholic Church”.

There is only ONE Church (Matt. 16:18, John 16:20-23).
Unfortunately, there are tens of thousands of splintered factions of that ONE Church who ALL teach different doctrines based on the whims of mere men . . .

By the 3rd and 4th centuries your church had become so anti-Semitic and deviated from any semblance of the first church for it to even remotely qualify as the church of John the Apostle. That's why I say just saying you're the true universal (Catholic) church means nothing. Anybody can say that. As I said, Protestants make that claim too.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well I do not believe that. but when a person make a profession of faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus- they become a believer. they can go thr0ough periods of disbelief for some reason, but that doesn't cause them to forfeit the faith they used to become a believer. It sounds paradoxical but is not.

It's against plain scripture, that's what it is.

"1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2​

You say this is not true.
You say you may still be saved even if you don't hold fast to the gospel message by which you were saved.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

More carnal minded psychobabble: separating 'saving' faith from 'living' faith.

the Bible does, so I do!

We can have the faith that saves but not the faith that lives.

YOu say that because you do not understand the Bible.

Believing God is obeying God. It's not a three step program of man's dysfunctional faith.

Correct! and the one time act of obeying god by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus saves one for all time. but once again , it is far more than just giving mental assent to a setof facts.

I.e. I have no fellowship with God by sins, but I am still saved by faith, though it is alone and dead by sins.

No and I never said that.Correct our fellowship is blocked, but sin no longer can destroy our relationship with God. fellowship and relationship are two separate things.

And so, there are pig and dog believers, who believe they are saved, and pig and dog unbelievers, who don't believe that. The pig and dog unbelievers are more honest.

No, I never said that.

If we fail to obey, we are not saved, except we repent. The grace of God is space to repent with help in time of need. Grace is not a cover for sins.

No we repent only once. After that it is acknowledging we sinned

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's against plain scripture, that's what it is.

"1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2​

You say this is not true.
You say you (may) still be saved even if you don't hold fast to the gospel message by which you were saved.

Well here is a free Greek lesson for you. the word "if" appears in three different conditions:

1. Conditional (maybe you do maybe you don't)
2. Positive: better rendered as since or maybe and you do
3 Negative: masybe and you don't.

This "if" ios a second case conditional and would be rendered "by this gospel you are saved, if and you do hold fast...."

 

[Ferris Bueller]

our fellowship is blocked, but sin no longer can destroy our relationship with God. fellowship and relationship are two separate things.

Not when a believer sins the sin of unbelief.

 

[robert derrick]

the one time act of obeying god by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus saves one for all time.

Oh, so obedience to God is a one time act. One obedience is good enough for eternity.

Incredible: I obeyed God once. Now I'm saved forever.

However, if that obeying God continues to the end, then it is eternal salvation for all time.

And, the cat is out of the bag: salvation begins by obeying God!

Perfect.

And since God's salvation begins by obeying Him, Scripture confirms it is eternal for them who continue to obey Him.

No one time act, but a lifetime thereof unto the end.

We are saved by grace through obeying the commandment of faith.

And so, it is concluded: believing is obeying. There is no believing that is not obeying. And so there is no salvation by faith alone, which is not the obedience we are commanded to do, that we may be saved.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's against plain scripture, that's what it is.

"1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2​

You say this is not true.
You say you may still be saved even if you don't hold fast to the gospel message by which you were saved.

I never said that verse is untrue- that is you practicing the sin of presumptiousness. YOu should ask for before making these gigantic leaps without knowing what I do or do not believe about a verse.

 

[farouk]

Well here is a free Greek lesson for you. the word "if" appears in three different conditions:

1. Conditional (maybe you do maybe you don't)
2. Positive: better rendered as since or maybe and you do
3 Negative: masybe and you don't.

This "if" ios a second case conditional and would be rendered "by this gospel you are saved, if and you do hold fast...."

@Ronald Nolette I guess "since" can also be a good translation....

In French, for example, the word "si" (if) is used with great frequency, perhaps more so than in English...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not when a believer sins the sin of unbelief.

Well I pity you and your crippled relationship with God. I hate sin and wish no one ever sins.

But for you I hope god will grant you a season of unbelief, and when that season ends you will see that god never left you , never once stopped loving you as a son and your eternal home stood as secure as when you were actively believing.

I cannot wish you well in this path of philosophy. Though you think so, it is very very unbiblical and leads to many many evils.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I never said that verse is untrue- that is you practicing the sin of presumptiousness. YOu should ask for before making these gigantic leaps without knowing what I do or do not believe about a verse.

What I'm saying is, what you said you believe is entirely inconsistent with 1 Corinthians 15:2, 1 John 2:24, 2 John 1:9, Hebrews 3:6, and Hebrews 3:14.

You have to continue to believe in order to be presently saved.
The person who does not continue to believe and is not presently believing does not abide in Christ and is not saved. That's what all those verses say.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But for you I hope god will grant you a season of unbelief, and when that season ends you will see that god never left you

I would hope the same for you but you may not come back in the time that God may give you to come back. If he gives you any time to come back before he turns you over to your unbelief. The Bible is very clear. The person who does not continue in the gospel does not have God:

"9Anyone who runs ahead without remaining in the teaching of Christ does not have God. Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son." 2 John 1:9
​

John says you have to remain in the teaching of Christ to have the Father and the Son. So my counsel to you is what the counsel of the Bible is: keep believing. And so, in accordance with what the Bible plainly says, I would never hope that you have a season of unbelief, as you have hoped I would have.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well here is a free Greek lesson for you. the word "if" appears in three different conditions:

1. Conditional (maybe you do maybe you don't)
2. Positive: better rendered as since or maybe and you do
3 Negative: masybe and you don't.

This "if" ios a second case conditional and would be rendered "by this gospel you are saved, if and you do hold fast...."

I checked and I did not see where ei, ean, or eanper ever mean, by definition, 'since'. So what determines which case is being used? Whichever one fits your theology?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

He. 6:4-6 is NOT saying it is impossible to be forgiven of having become apostate. It is telling the Hebrew readers that is impossible for those who “have tasted the heavenly gift” of the New Covenant to return to the Old Covenant in order to be saved.

Show me where it says that.

I see where it says if you fall away you can't be restored to repentance because it subjects Christ to open shame so God doesn't allow it.

6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Hebrews 6:6​

Now you show me where it says what you say it says.

 

[Pythagorean12]

You act as if we're conditionally saved, which is heresy, and are slaves to God the master. Who cracks the whip if we don't remain obedient to what?

The faith of Jesus.

And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ.

Faith alone sees servitude to the righteousness of God as a repellent whip.

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

I act conditionally saved by obedience to the faith, while you act unconditionally saved by disobedience to the faith.

strictly obedient to his every whim to the day they die.

Strict obedience to His every whim is anathema to the devil, who resented such obedience from the beginning.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations.

The carnal mind on display. "What?? I am expected to obey Him in all things??! What heresy!!!"

And only after death will that conditionally appointed person find out if they worked,obeyed enough, to be rewarded with eternal life. You have to turn scripture on its head, eradicate context all together, and then twist God into a lying egocentric psychopath. Seriously. This is the kind of thing I was talking about before.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Seriously. The carnal minded rant is from a heart of hate against them that preach righteousness of God by obedience to the faith of God for eternal salvation is...most indignant. Their indignance against obedience is...blubbering rubbish.

because they get satisfaction watching Christians try to change their mind.

I.e. they know it's true, but they refuse the correction, because their reprobate minds are made up about a made up mental faith that is alone and dead.

I will not! disbelieve in faith alone!!!!

They rage on against the truth and are as scarlet red about it as the beast upon whom the mother of harlots sits.

Let them huff and puff, until their nostrils burn smoke from the pit (Rev 9:2). It won't change the Scripture of truth.

Pytho is a real hoot:

"Obedience to the faith with eternal salvation is straight from the pit of hell!!! Arrrrghh!!"

The Word made flesh and his message of good news.

Good news. By the faith of Jesus we can certainly obey Him.

Can anyone seriously believe the lengths to which these people go to condemn salvation by the faith of Jesus that obeys Him??

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

No big mystery. It's called salvation by faith alone. The real mystery of iniquity is how indignant they get, when obedience is even suggested as necessary for the salvation that is to them that obey Him. And not for them that believe only, which is dead on arrival.

Live as you think.

I have no expectation of changing your mind.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I just checked. The word 'ministered' is a verb. An aorist verb at that, indicating completed action.
He is telling them that God will not forget what they have done and are continuing to do in service to the saints:

"For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so." Hebrews 6:10
​

Their service to the saints is the growth that accompanies salvation. Meanwhile, the one who does not have that which accompanies salvation will in the end be burned. They are not saved. Their barren useless 'land' is evidence of that.

"...land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so." Hebrews 6:8-10​

See how easy life can be Ferris? Now we agree. Since you now realize that ministers are servants, and you even realize that the particular ones you spoke of serve the saints, were you aware that we (ministers) are judged by what we do to support those "saints" in their assignment?

 

[robert derrick]

Live as you think.

I have no expectation of changing your mind.

I.e. speechless in the face of plain Scriptural correction.

The Master-slave relationship between the Master Christ and His slaves that obey Him is odious to the proud carnal mind.

In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.

When we cannot be corrected by God's Word, then our minds become reporabate to God, because He can no longer talk to us as God.

OSAS ceased to be any form of study or debate, once they declared their doctrine can never ever be disproven nor corrected.

It is now just a simple case study of how far they are willing to go with carnal reasoning against Scripture.

It has been both astonishing and fabulous at the same time.