A Closer Look at the Genesis Creation Account

[Aunty Jane]

Because the God I know would create anything that relief on death in order to survive.

Hang on....what??? Please provide scripture to back up what you said before....did you intend to say that nothing on earth was designed to die?

 

[Brakelite]

Hang on....what??? Please provide scripture to back up what you said before....did you intend to say that nothing on earth was designed to die?

Shocking but true. Everything was designed and ordained for life. Hence the tree of life. Death is an enemy. And in the end, it will be destroyed along with sin and sinners. Death is a foreign invader and totally incompatible with God's universe.
KJV Genesis 1:29-31
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

If you think that God declared creation very good while His creatures were killing one another and ripping one another apart to eat, you have the poorest conception of God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Shocking but true. Everything was designed and ordained for life. Hence the tree of life. Death is an enemy. And in the end, it will be destroyed along with sin and sinners. Death is a foreign invader and totally incompatible with God's universe.
KJV Genesis 1:29-31
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

If you think that God declared creation very good while His creatures were killing one another and ripping one another apart to eat, you have the poorest conception of God.

Wow! That is what you got out of the Genesis account? What translation are you using? It is a strange thing indeed for God to be mentioning "meat" to vegetarians...The better rendering would be "food" which is its primary meaning according to Strongs.

So because all creatures were vegetarians, where does it say that animals were promised everlasting life and had access to the tree of life?

Death is a programmed part of animal life, only for humans was life to be everlasting....and only if they obeyed God's command. Death came as a consequence of Adam's disobedience.....why would God also punish the animals? Do they hold elaborate funerals and grieve over their lost loved ones like we do? Some intelligent animals who are designed to live in family troupes may seem to grieve over a lost member, but death from natural causes is just nature. If no creatures died, then we would be overrun with them. You think this is what God thought was a good thing?

There are many carrion creatures whose job it is as nature's clean up crew. These birds animals and insects do not kill for food, but eat what is already dead. I do not see death as anything but part of earth's life cycle. Animals are not promised everlasting life.....show me where it says that....?

Only humans have an expectation to live forever.....that is our programming.

 

[Cooper]

We are, but not in the way you think. Have you done any study of the meanings of these words?..."soul" and "spirit"?

The Bible's teaching is relatively simple.....a "soul" is a living breathing creature, both man and animals are called "souls" in the Bible.
Solomon wrote...
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

Souls are mortal....they die. (Ezekiel 18:4) The word "soul" never means a disembodied spirit.

In the Genesis account of creation, Adam wasn't given a "soul" but "became" one when God started him breathing. (Genesis 2:7)
So the "breath" in man is his spirit which is the meaning of the word in both Hebrew and Greek.

That means that a body + breath (spirit) = a "soul".
We are not three but one body animated by the spirit that keeps us breathing. Once the last breath leaves our lungs, we are dead.
There is no part of man that survives death. It is the opposite of life.

The Bible teaches resurrection, not immortality of the soul.

As you say in your summing up, “We are not three but one body animated by the spirit that keeps us breathing. Once the last breath leaves our lungs, we are dead. There is no part of man that survives death. It is the opposite of life.”

That is true for humans. The flesh dies, “dust to dust and ashes to ashes” except we are not the one eternal, omnipresent God who conquered death and rose again. :)

Please do not ignore the soul. The Bible speaks of the soul hundreds of times. As I said, we are a tripartite being and so is the eternal God.
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[Aunty Jane]

As you say in your summing up, “We are not three but one body animated by the spirit that keeps us breathing. Once the last breath leaves our lungs, we are dead. There is no part of man that survives death. It is the opposite of life.”

That is true for humans. The flesh dies, “dust to dust and ashes to ashes” except we are not the one eternal, omnipresent God who conquered death and rose again. :)
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Sorry, but I don’t believe that Jesus was any of those things.
He is not eternal because he was created by his Father as the beginning of his creation.(Revelation 3:14)
His Father is never said to Omnipresent, but God is Omniscient.....all knowing.

And since God is an immortal Being who cannot die, Jesus must have been 100% human in order to sacrifice his life for obedient mankind. Resurrection out of death is promised for all the dead. (John 5:28-29) God resurrected Jesus, and Jesus was given the power to resurrect others.

 

[Cooper]

Sorry, but I don’t believe that Jesus was any of those things.
He is not eternal because he was created by his Father as the beginning of his creation.(Revelation 3:14)
His Father is never said to Omnipresent, but God is Omniscient.....all knowing.

And since God is an immortal Being who cannot die, Jesus must have been 100% human in order to sacrifice his life for obedient mankind. Resurrection out of death is promised for all the dead. (John 5:28-29) God resurrected Jesus, and Jesus was given the power to resurrect others.

Jesus, a man on earth, has the power to do what only God can do, and resurrect others, eternally, even though his flesh was dead.

You said it. :)
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[JohnPaul]

Can we just clear this up? It is the RCC that believes Mary was immaculately conceived.....not me.

I've never heard the Catholic Church say this in all my years I attended Mass, only that Jesus Christ was Immaculately conceived.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because the God I know would create anything that relief on death in order to survive.

Amen,

Not only was there no death before adam fell. And that all life were plant eaters

We are told when christ returns it will go back to that after he returns. That the sheep and lion will lay side by side. Because the lion no longer needs to eat the sheep. So the sheep is no longer threatened.

God did not create meat eaters.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I've never heard the Catholic Church say this in all my years I attended Mass, only that Jesus Christ was Immaculately conceived.

There are a few in here that declare that Mary was also. She was conceived perfect with no sin

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wow! That is what you got out of the Genesis account? What translation are you using? It is a strange thing indeed for God to be mentioning "meat" to vegetarians...The better rendering would be "food" which is its primary meaning according to Strongs.

So because all creatures were vegetarians, where does it say that animals were promised everlasting life and had access to the tree of life?

Death is a programmed part of animal life, only for humans was life to be everlasting....and only if they obeyed God's command. Death came as a consequence of Adam's disobedience.....why would God also punish the animals? Do they hold elaborate funerals and grieve over their lost loved ones like we do? Some intelligent animals who are designed to live in family troupes may seem to grieve over a lost member, but death from natural causes is just nature. If no creatures died, then we would be overrun with them. You think this is what God thought was a good thing?

There are many carrion creatures whose job it is as nature's clean up crew. These birds animals and insects do not kill for food, but eat what is already dead. I do not see death as anything but part of earth's life cycle. Animals are not promised everlasting life.....show me where it says that....?

Only humans have an expectation to live forever.....that is our programming.

1. Death is the result of sin. It was never a part of creation.
2. 433 אָכְלָה (ʾāḵ·lā(h)): n.fem.; ≡ Str 402; TWOT 85b—1. LN 5.1–5.22 food, i.e., what is eatable and hence consumed by humans (Ge 1:29, 30; 6:21; 9:3; Ex 16:15; Lev 11:39; 25:6; Eze 39:4+); 2. LN 5.1–5.22 prey, animal game, i.e., animate life killed for consumption by predators, implying a violent death (Eze 29:5; 34:5, 8, 10+); 3. LN 2.3–2.6 fuel, i.e., wood or brush that feeds a fire (Eze 15:4, 6; 21:37[EB 32]+), note: Jer 12:9, this form is possibly parsed as qal pf. 3fs. of 430; 4. LN 20.31–20.60 destruction, formally, devouring, i.e., a state of being ruined (Eze 35:12+); 5. LN 53.16–53.27 meat, i.e., flesh for a sacrificial offering (Eze 23:37+)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I've never heard the Catholic Church say this in all my years I attended Mass, only that Jesus Christ was Immaculately conceived.

It’s true...look it up....:

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus, a man on earth, has the power to do what only God can do, and resurrect others, eternally, even though his flesh was dead.

You said it. :)
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Actually Jesus only had the power to perform miracles after his baptism and his anointing with Holy Spirit. As Jesus, the carpenter’s son, he was no miracle worker......that is why his siblings did not put faith in him until after his death and resurrection. It’s why he entrusted the care of his Mother to the apostle John, because his brothers and sisters were not yet believers. God did what only God could do....Jesus was not God....nor did he need to be. “The last Adam”cancelled what the first Adam did. (1Cor 15:45)

 

[Cooper]

Actually Jesus only had the power to perform miracles after his baptism and his anointing with Holy Spirit. As Jesus, the carpenter’s son, he was no miracle worker......that is why his siblings did not put faith in him until after his death and resurrection. It’s why he entrusted the care of his Mother to the apostle John, because his brothers and sisters were not yet believers. God did what only God could do....Jesus was not God....nor did he need to be. “The last Adam”cancelled what the first Adam did. (1Cor 15:45)

Jesus raised the dead doing what only God can do. Enough of this nonsense.
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[Webers_Home]

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His "flesh" was not of Adam, but of God "through" Mary as Jesus was the
product of holy spirit.

It's amazes me sometimes the number of sincere Christians I encounter
online who honestly believe that Mary was Jesus' surrogate mother rather
than his biological mother.
_

 

[Aunty Jane]

.
It's amazes me sometimes the number of sincere Christians I encounter
online who honestly believe that Mary was Jesus' surrogate mother rather
than his biological mother.
_

If Jesus was Mary’s biological child, then Jesus was born with inherited sin.....in order to pay the redemption price for the human race, now contaminated by sin, Jesus had to come from outside of Adam’s offspring. He had to be “sinless”.

It’s a no brainer.....if he had inherited sin from his mother, then his death did not pay for our redemption. We are all still condemned, and he died for nothing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus raised the dead doing what only God can do. Enough of this nonsense.
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What nonsense? Holy Spirit was the power behind all the resurrections performed in the Bible.
Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism. He himself was resurrected by his God and Father. He promised to send that Holy Spirit to his disciples after his return to heaven, and then they too could perform the same miracles.... The Apostles Peter and Paul raised the dead too....were they God?

 

[Webers_Home]

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If Jesus was Mary’s biological child, then Jesus was born with inherited sin.

In a nutshell, for those who may not know: The punishment that God ruled
for Adam tasting the forbidden fruit was death. According to portions of the
fifth chapter of the epistle to Romans, Adam's entire posterity shares the
guilt of his act-- viz: by the sin of one, everyone became sinners right along
with him. Consequently everyone has to die because that's the ruling; and
age, race, gender, and/or religious preference makes no difference.

It's sometimes objected that Deut 24:16 and Ezek 18:20 say that a man's
children are not responsible for his mistakes. In point of fact, God himself
made that law. However; according to Deut 5:2-4 and Gal 3:17 the laws of
God do not have ex post facto jurisdiction, i.e. they aren't retroactive, viz:
Deut 24:16 and Ezek 18:20 were enacted too late to be enforced back there
in the Garden.

And besides; I'm not talking about responsibility here, I'm talking about
taking part in Adam's mistake, i.e. everyone is reckoned a joint principal in
Adam's act so that God can legitimately point the finger at any one of us and
say "You there! You ate that forbidden fruit after I said not to."

The most obvious proof that Jesus Christ came into this world as a joint
principal in Adam's act was his mortality. You see, had Jesus been born
innocent of Adam's sin, then it would've been impossible to kill him with
crucifixion because the law of sin and death (Rom 6:23) would not have
applied to him due to the fact that Jesus never committed even one sin of
his own during his entire lifetime. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and
1Pet 2:22)

Now the thing to note in that fifth chapter of Romans is that although
Adam's sin made his posterity sinners, it did not make them sinful. The so
called fallen nature is a whole other area of interest.

FAQ: If Jesus was a joint principal in Adam's act, then how can it be honestly
said that he was a lamb without spot or blemish?

A: Jesus committed no sins of his own to account for, nor was he infected
with the so-called fallen nature.

FAQ: Wasn't Adam's sin a sin unto Hell?

A: No, it was limited to mortality. In other words; in order to clear Adam's
act off one's personnel file; all they have to do is pass away. Jesus passed
away on the cross, so there went his share of the punishment for tasting the
forbidden fruit.
_

 

[Aunty Jane]

Wow! This comes from a whole other angle.....

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In a nutshell, for those who may not know: The punishment that God ruled for Adam tasting the forbidden fruit was death. According to portions of the fifth chapter of the epistle to Romans, Adam's entire posterity shares theguilt of his act-- viz: by the sin of one, everyone became sinners right along with him. Consequently everyone has to die because that's the ruling; and age, race, gender, and/or religious preference makes no difference.

This assumes an aspect of community responsibility, but the wording in Romans gives me a different interpretation.
Romans 5:8-9, 12-14....Paul wrote...
"But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, then, since we have now been declared righteous by his blood, will we be saved through him from wrath. . .

That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned—. 13 For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come."

Is sin something we inherited from Adam? Apparently so, because "the wages sin pays is death" and so far no human being has lived without dying. So its not as if God is up there pointing a bone at us that causes us to die.....it is the natural consequence of sin which was introduced by Adam, causing some genetic defect that was passed on to his children.

Paul also wrote something that we can all identify with...
"For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am fleshly, sold under sin. 15 For what I am working out I do not know. For what I wish, this I do not practice; but what I hate is what I do. 16 However, if what I do not wish is what I do, I agree that the Law is fine. 17 But now the one working it out is no longer I, but sin that resides in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for ability to wish is present with me, but ability to work out what is fine is not [present]. 19 For the good that I wish I do not do, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20 If, now, what I do not wish is what I do, the one working it out is no longer I, but the sin dwelling in me.

21 I find, then, this law in my case: that when I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I behold in my members another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my members. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with [my] mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with [my] flesh to sin’s law."

This to me indicates that sin is an inheritance dwelling in the flesh of all human kind, that no one can disclaim.....it has been passed on to all of us. Death only comes as a result of sin....sin is only practiced by those who have been led captive to its laws, operating within our flesh....since we are all sinful, we all die.

It's sometimes objected that Deut 24:16 and Ezek 18:20 say that a man's children are not responsible for his mistakes. In point of fact, God himself made that law. However; according to Deut 5:2-4 and Gal 3:17 the laws of God do not have ex post facto jurisdiction, i.e. they aren't retroactive, viz: Deut 24:16 and Ezek 18:20 were enacted too late to be enforced back therein the Garden.

Since we are all victims of Adam's sin, there must be a reason why God allowed us to live and die for millennia as a result of it.......what is the point then, in the big picture?

The laws of redemption in Israel help us to make the connection.
If a man got into serious debt and had no way to pay it back, he had to go into service of the one to whom he owed the money, until he paid it off. If he could not personally go into service because of having family responsibilities, he could send one of his children to work for the man and pay it for him. If there was a wealthy friend or relative, then they too could help him by paying off the debt.

The debt we owe God due to Adam's sin is huge. We inherited this debt through no fault on our part, so our benefactor sent his own son to pay the debt for us.
I don't believe that people understand the principles of the ransom.

Romans 5:18-19...
"So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, so too through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is their being declared righteous for life. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one person many will be made righteous."

And besides; I'm not talking about responsibility here, I'm talking about taking part in Adam's mistake, i.e. everyone is reckoned a joint principal in Adam's act so that God can legitimately point the finger at any one of us and say "You there! You ate that forbidden fruit after I said not to."

Is this who you think God is? I believe that you are way off in your estimations here.
What Adam did in the garden was to ignore a dire warning and allow his loyalties to become divided...he 'let a bad genie out of a bottle' and once it was out, it could not be put back.
Once humans attained "a knowledge of good and evil" there was no way to "unknow" it. It altered everything about them.
Adam's children were then born with this knowledge....and it altered them too...and in turn altered the world they were born into.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The most obvious proof that Jesus Christ came into this world as a joint principal in Adam's act was his mortality. You see, had Jesus been born innocent of Adam's sin, then it would've been impossible to kill him with crucifixion because the law of sin and death (Rom 6:23) would not have applied to him due to the fact that Jesus never committed even one sin of his own during his entire lifetime. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, and 1Pet 2:22)

That again is a little twisted IMV. Jesus had to be 100% mortal human to pay the debt that Adam left....this is why he is called "the last Adam". (1 Cor 15:45)
Adam was morally perfect and without the defect of sin when God created him, but that did not stop him from making a bad choice. As a free willed being, Adam could have obeyed his God and none of us would be in this predicament, but since it took place as a malicious plan of the devil to gain worship for himself, God decided to use it as an important object lesson for all who think free will can be abused without serious consequences.....for both angels and humans. Independence from God has not benefited anyone. A knowledge of good and evil hasn't made life easy either.

Mortality doesn't mean sinful. It just means that life can be finite if certain criteria are not met. Death would only come through disobedience.
If Adam had not sinned, then he would still be alive today enjoying paradise with all his progeny...sin free. "The tree of life" was there in the garden to guarantee everlasting life for all.....but once sin entered their world, that tree was off limits to them. Death would then overtake them.

Now the thing to note in that fifth chapter of Romans is that although Adam's sin made his posterity sinners, it did not make them sinful. The so called fallen nature is a whole other area of interest.

Paul disagrees with you.....all were made sinners due to the actions of our first parents.

FAQ: If Jesus was a joint principal in Adam's act, then how can it be honestly said that he was a lamb without spot or blemish?

Because he had no sin in him Jesus was born a human without defects. He is the counterpart of Adam.....offering to God a recompense for Adam's sin. "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth...life for a life"...only the exact equivalent of Adam could be sacrificed for humanity....balancing the scales of justice.

: Jesus committed no sins of his own to account for, nor was he infected with the so-called fallen nature.

1 Peter 2:21-24...
"In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. 22 He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 23 When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously. 24 He himself bore our sins in his own body on the stake, so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.”

He took our sins into his own body....like stepping in front of someone to take a bullet for them.

Wasn't Adam's sin a sin unto Hell?

What does that even mean? Was Adam's sin forgivable? NO! Because there was no excuse for it.....and there was no basis upon which to forgive him or his wife. Their actions were willful and deliberate. Adam simply went back to the dust from which God had created him. There is no such place as "hell".

No, it was limited to mortality. In other words; in order to clear Adam's act off one's personnel file; all they have to do is pass away. Jesus passed away on the cross, so there went his share of the punishment for tasting the forbidden fruit.

That makes no sense at all. The wages sin pays is death....we all pay sin's wages with our own death. What Jesus's sacrifice does for the dead is guarantees them a resurrection. They have been ransomed out of death so that they will join the living in the paradise God planned for us all along. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[Cooper]

What nonsense? Holy Spirit was the power behind all the resurrections performed in the Bible.
Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism. He himself was resurrected by his God and Father. He promised to send that Holy Spirit to his disciples after his return to heaven, and then they too could perform the same miracles.... The Apostles Peter and Paul raised the dead too....were they God?

Do you know the consequences of denying Jesus is Lord?
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