I have a question that remains unanswered:
- Thread starter Robert Gwin
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I'm really glad you said that......because that is correct.
Actually it was Genesis 1:26....and it was God who said.....
But to whom was God speaking?
According to Paul....at Colossians 1:15-17....concerning Jesus....he said....
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (NASB)
See also Revelation 3:14 where Jesus is called "the beginning of the creation by God".
So here Paul is describing Jesus as "the image" of his Father, or IOW he is a reflection of his Father, just as the moon is a reflection of the sun....like a photograph is an image of someone but is not that someone....it is what someone looks like.
It goes on to say that he was "the firstborn of all creation"....but unless there are other children, the term "firstborn" has no meaning. The pre-human Jesus was the firstborn of many sons, but only this son was "begotten" as the first and only direct creation of his Father.....all other things (including the other sons of God) were created "through" this firstborn. This is talking about agency.
So because "all things were created through him and for him"....how can Jesus be God the Creator?
Proverbs helps us out here....
As wisdom personified, the pre-human Jesus is described this way.....
"The Lord created me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 From eternity I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 When there were no ocean depths, I was born,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was born;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
27 When He established the heavens, I was there. . . . .
Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was His delight daily,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of mankind." (Proverbs 8:22-27, 30,31 NASB)
So as a "Master Workman", "the beginning of God's way", Jesus worked with his Father in creation. He existed before any other thing.
So he is the "us" and the "our" in Genesis 1:26....but he is not God, nor is he the Creator.
You will notice in the Hebrew that Genesis 1:1 states that God "created" the heavens and the earth"?
But in Verse 26 he says, let us "make" man in our image....these two different Hebrew words tell us something that is not obvious in English.
The word "create" is "bārā'" which means "to create, shape, form". To create something means that it did not exist before.
The word "make" is "ʿāśâ" which means "to do, fashion, accomplish, make"...this is the fabricating or fashioning of things out of already existing materials. God was working with his firstborn son in creation. Not as God, and not as a Creator, but as a 'workman' following an architects blueprints.
So its not looking too good for your triune god in Genesis at this point. If you want to examine scripture...you must do it thoroughly.
Nope.....not even close. There is no mention of a triune God in all of the Hebrew scriptures. There is none in the Christian scriptures either.
Exodus 3:13-16..... from the Jewish Tanakh....
"13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord [יְהֹוָ֞ה] God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.
16 Go and assemble the elders of Israel, and say to them, 'The Lord [יְהֹוָ֞ה] God of your forefathers has appeared to me, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, "I have surely remembered you and what is being done to you in Egypt."
So where are these three.....? There is just one God and his name is Yahweh [יְהֹוָ֞ה]...Jehovah. Jesus is never once called Yahweh.
LOL...really? That is a really nice twisting of scripture, and you might just get away with it if you didn't know what the rest of the Bible teaches.....it is one story, about one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) who became the God of Israel.....he was never a trinity...not then...not now.
His son is a creation of his Father and God's Spirit is the administration of his power....used throughout creation and in all of the history of God's people. But never once is God's spirit called "God"...or in fact any other name.
So over to you.....
The plurality of the ONE God is found in the first chapter of the Bible, where Genesis states that ELOHIM, (which is the plural name of God that translates literally as GODS), said, let US make man in OUR image.
H430 (Strong)
אֱלֹהִים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Total KJV occurrences: 2601
Note: Elohim did not say let ME make man in MY image.
He said let US make man in OUR image, because Jesus, who made everything that was made, Colossians 1:16, was there with Him as co-creator per John 1:1, 10, 14.
The trinity is also seen in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus said to baptize in the NAME, singular, of the THREE, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The three share one name - Elohim.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I have a business engagement in Charlotte in the morning. I have to get that car fixed. :)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
♫It's Howdy Doody time,♫
♫It's Howdy Doody time,♫
♫Bob Smith and Howdy, too♫
♫Say Howdy Do to you.♫
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I believe Jesus came to earth, among other things, to set an example for us. He couldn't say, "I am God," because it isn't for us to say, "I am God." Besides, God isn't a man. However, God could have come to earth in the body of Jesus.
Yes Curt it is plural, not in the sense there are multiple gods, rather the promotion of majesty sir.
It's wrong to pray to Mary.
The www.catholic.com website says:
Why Pray to Mary? Because Jesus has given us his Blessed Mother as our great spiritual mother (Rev.12:17), a heavenly advocate who intercedes for us.
That is not Biblical (and a misunderstanding and misapplication of Revelation 12:17). The Bible only mentions one person as our advocate, and that is Jesus:
1 John 2:1 (ESV):
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Jesus taught us to pray to our Father, and to Him only - Matthew 6:6,9 (WEB):
6) But you, when you pray, enter into your inner room, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
9) Pray like this: ‘Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
9) Pray like this: ‘Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
Wrong. Earthly kings and magistrates claimed to be gods and they copied the language used in Genesis as part of that, so what’s called the royal WE was not being copied by God, as you claim.
God doesn’t copy men, men try to copy God, therefore your attempt at spin won’t wa#h.
Elohim, the plural name for God, used the words US and WE because per Joh; 1:1 God wa# with God in the beginning.
And you JWs already claim that Jesus is A God but not THE God, because that’s how the NWT translates John 1:1, and when we point out that’s polytheism because you claim two separate Gods, you use where Jesus quotes YE ARE GODS, to defend your polytheism - so your statement about the definition of Elohim is contradictory to the watchtowers own teaching.
So bottom line, Gods not using language of earthly kings, who didn’t even exist yet anyway, in IGenesis, the earthly kings copied His words.
You’ve got the cart before the horse to try to deny the undeniable, which is that the plurality of the one God is a fact found in the very first book of the Bible, and not just found in the New Testament.
I believe the same as well Bob, God can certainly do anything, including coming to earth as a human, but He chose to send His only begotten son. One of His spirit sons turned corrupt, and influenced humans to become their own gods, so Jehovah chose another spirit son to become human as a corresponding ransom to buy back what Adam lost for mankind. It is kind of hard to understand God's perfect law, but it is just that, soul for soul, a life lost must be redeemed thorough another life lost. Jesus underwent a horrific death for us, I hope we appreciate it, although we really haven't seen the true outcome yet, how appreciative we will be when this sacrifice comes into play for us.
Elohim is not a name sir, it simply means God El is god, Elohim is plural for God from Hebrew to English.
I have explained our position quite well on who God is sir, you disagree, which is fine. I will say what you may already realize, when Jesus returns, he will be removing those who do not know God 1 Thes 1:6-9, It is a requirement Curt.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You incessantly confound your denomination with the entirety of Body of Christ.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
It is creepy to Christians not familiar with RCC corruptions.
My wife still cannot believe the Immaculate Mary invention, which she sees as elevating Mary beyond the normal human level.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I think if more people understood the creepy things the Catholics believe and practice it would be recognized for the cult that it is.
I didn't know how bad it was myself until I talked to Catholics on-line. It's not just creepy. It's scary creepy. I'm thankful there have been people willing to risk being put to death by the Catholic church to rebel against it's teachings.
