Taken
Well-Known Member
OSAS is in regard to HAVING RECEIVED Salvation through the Lords Works of CONVERSION.
What is your point you are trying to make, without saying it?
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OSAS is in regard to HAVING RECEIVED Salvation through the Lords Works of CONVERSION.
What is your point you are trying to make, without saying it?
Taken
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
"Movement" is what is denied by OSAS proponents. In verses like Heb3:12-13 they try to assert either:
1. The subjects were never TRULY saved in the first place!
2. The subjects never actually fell; they may be deceived to fewer rewards-in-Heaven, but not salvation itself
Again, if he presumed they were saved, why would he warn them not to fall? Another approach OSAS people try, is:
3. Bugbear, fatherly-advice but can't really happen; effective means by which he KEEPS us saved (although God doesn't need external means, therefore whether an OSAS admits it or not it's empty conversation)
The warnings are real warnings against movement. What about 2Cor11:3? We are at the same risk of deception, as Eve experienced from the devil in the Garden! Or is there a place "away from the simplicity of purity and devotion to Jesus", which is still saved?
Is there?
The message in 5:11-6:2 is "don't spend all your time preaching repentance to those who don't want to"; only then does he say, "...for in the case of THOSE WHO..."
You are complete refusing the movement blatantly expressed -- "And FALLING AWAY" -- it really means falling away, but no one can fall away from a place he never was.
Movement.
people are often compared to plants; in Luke8 His message is PLANTS, it has nothing to do with soil. "Those WHO ...fall (to temptation/affliction/persecution", are LIKE plants growing on rocky soil. Those WHO hold fast and fruitfully persevere, are LIKE good plants on good soil."
It's the same in 2Pet2:18-22 --- people who wallow in sin/defilements are LIKE dogs and pigs in vomit and mire. There had to be a time when they were NOT dogs and pigs, because dogs and pigs never want to escape vomit or mire, and they never try!
Exactly that -- but encouragement to what? To imitate those who faithfully inherit eternity! You really don't see it expresses an alternative of NOT inheriting (being sluggish)?
Honestly?
Those who diligently guard against deception!
Yes -- well -- it still says "build yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love". The alternative is clearly implied...
Who is in danger of deception? It's the saved in 1Jn2:26-28; saved in James1:14-16. Saved in Col2:6-8 and 2Pet3:17.
What we're not resolving between us, is "who exactly can deceive us, and what is the deception?"
In James1:14-16 it's addressed to "beloved-brethren", and it is SIN that can deceive us to death.
It's sin that can deceive us to falling-away-from-God in Heb3:12-13.
It's wicked men who can deceive us away from Jesus in Col2:6-8, and 2Pet3:17.
It's demons that can deceive us away from Jesus and "the faith" in 1Tim4:1 and 2Cor11:3.
There are many more -- how can we refuse all these verses?
All of God, nothing of us.
No -- it was wrought on the Cross, but it's a gift -- we are completely free to receive the gift or not. Rom5:17.
Salvation is by God's grace through our faith; Robertson says on Eph2:8 "grace is God's part, faith is ours".
On Rom1:17 Robertson says God's righteousness is revealed from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal --- from beginning faith to ending faith. How we start is called "believing to salvation". How we finish is called "endurance".
He who endures to the end shall be saved!
You see, the gift is immortal and imperishable and will not fade away, but it is reserved in Heaven for us for a salvation to be revealed in the end time; us, who receive as the outcome of our faith, salvation. 1Pet1:1-9.
I've given exact answers, fully supported by precise verses. If you think I understand them wrong, then it is up to you to patiently explain what my error is.
A parable is a story to illustrate what is.
"The kingdom of God is like a king who held a wedding feast for his son." It is? A "wedding feast"? Was He saying salvation is a PARTY? That's exactly what He was saying! It's a party, a celebration of love -- and everyone is invited!
"Yes even though the son was DEAD, he was still his father's son -- fornication, drunkenness, carousing, stealing, nothing removed him from his father's household! Antinomianism/Gnosticism!"
I don't think you believe that...
If you are without (present), of which all have become (past), then you are not (present). We were, but if we are not -- what am I missing?
Tong said:
That is, by definition, "antinomianism" -- the father's house was allegory for God's kingdom. Drunkenness, fornication, carousing, debauchery, will not remove us from God's kingdom.
(...yes they will...)
I look forward to your thoughts.
If God did it then Pharaoh did not; if Pharaoh did, then God did not. If Pharaoh did 51.7% and God 48.3%, then God is complicit in "hard-heart sinfulness".
God is incapable of complicity in sin.
"Hard-heart", is disbelief and evilness; Heb3:8-14 is clear -- could either of us deny it?
The man in Heb10:29 "was sanctified by Jesus' blood" -- but now he scorns that very blood, tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit; in context Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers him. And in context, he is us if we do not heed the warning.
Speaking of "flock":
"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
"Therefore be on the alert..." Acts20:28-31
"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
"Therefore be on the alert..." Acts20:28-31
The flock -- us, whom He purchased with His blood --- savage wolves will not spare the flock. Is the flock in DANGER?
What happens to the "blood-purchase", if wolves are allowed to devour them?
Perverse men will draw away even disciples --- are disciples in DANGER?
What did Paul mean?
"This is My flesh and blood; do this often in remembrance of Me."
That is what we call "communion" -- have I partaken of communion as Scripture describes it? Yes.
Pardon for the typo error….”I what I was…” should have been “If what I was…”The powerlessness is on the person.Tong2020 said: ↑
I what I was saying (: ) does not fit, please refute my position. For I said “the question you posed is as if the powerlessness is not on the person, but on another. If that were what the passage is saying, who then is powerless to restore/renew them to repentance?”
(Goodness you made a long post!)
At least now, it is clear, the powerlessness is on the person and not on any other else. So, in Hebrews 6:6, we now have the same understanding that the impossibility or powerlessness to be renewed to repentance is on the person.
The matter for you now to ponder about is what made it impossible for him or what rendered him powerless to be renewed to repentance.
<<<(Goodness you made a long post!)>>>
I will then respond to your long post by parts to avoid long post.
<<<The powerlessness is on the person -- they cannot be turned to repentance BECAUSE OF their willful sin.>>>
Do you not seem to contradict yourself there? On the first part you say the powerlessness is on the person, yet on the second part you say “they cannot be turned”. I think that you should say that ‘they cannot turn themselves to repentance’. Don’t you think so?
Having pointed that out, it is clear that the person cannot turn himself or is powerless to turn himself, from having been a true believer to a true unbeliever, unto repentance to be a true believer again.
Now it seems to me that the reason you give that they cannot turn themselves to repentance is their willful sin. I am sorry, but that does not quite make sense to me. Besides, I see that to be nowhere said in Hebrews 6:6. What is there is this “…since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
@Gadgetere, Please tell, what is the Greek text translated kjv "SEEING AS", Nasb "SINCE", niv "BECAUSE", and nasb footnote "WHILE!"? You skipped this one.
<<<That is true…>>>
I take that as agreeing to what I said.
<<<yet -- (you thought I was gonna say "but") -- if we cease walking in Jesus (Col2:6-8), and walk again in sin (Rm8:12), we must die.>>>
What does Col. 2:6-8 and Romans 8:12 got to do with the truth of what I said which you agreed to?
<<<Exactly as Heb10:26ff says, His sacrifice will no longer cover us...>>>
What does Hebrews 10:26ff got to do with the truth of what I said which you agreed to?
Tong
R4745
Before I answer, let's read those verses in context (Yes I know the NASB has some grievous errors; but in many places it is closer to Greek than other translations. KJV is much better in places, like correctly rendering the conditional in Heb12:7!)
Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him...Col3:1-10
Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him...Col3:1-10
SET your minds on things above and not on earthly things?
You have put on the new self -- done deal, unchangeable? Let's look at Eph4?
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
But you did not learn Christ in this way,
if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Eph4:17-24
being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
But you did not learn Christ in this way,
if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Eph4:17-24
"Do not walk as Gentiles, darkened in understanding, excluded from the life of God because of ignorance and hard-heartedness and sensuality and impurity"? You -- don't do this!
"LAY ASIDE the old sinful man, PUT ON the new godly man"?
How do these verses work under OSAS, Marks? They read to me that turning to wickedness is fully possible for the saved! Ephesians is written to "the saints at Ephesus who are faithful in Christ Jesus"! Why is he telling them not to "walk excluded from the life of God" and to "lay aside the sinful man and put on the new"?
2Cor5:17, "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation -- the old has passed away, behold all has become new". Wait! If our sinful self is dead and we are unchangeably new, why in the world does he say "SET your minds above not on earthly things, LAY ASIDE the old sinful man and PUT ON the new"? Isn't the only way these words make sense, is if "we are new creations" and therefore "godly/saved", as a daily walk? Is there any way Paul is NOT admonishing us "don't turn back to wickedness"? (Don't be like Gentiles, impure, sensual?)
Do I believe it AS WRITTEN? Yes! And as written it's a constant choice, isn't it? Look at Col1:21-23:Marks said:
"And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel
All views of OSAS assert that our "reconciliation" is a done deal, eternal unchangeable; right? Does Col1:21-23 SOUND like a "done deal", and not "conditioned on our CONTINUING firm in faith and not being moved away from Jesus"?
How do you make OSAS work with these verses, Marks? I don't see how anyone can; can you help me to understand?
<<<….even if we perish, He still loves us and grieves over losing us.>>>
Where in scriptures say that? Or is it only you?
Are you suggesting by that that God will forever be in grief over those who go to hell?
Are you suggesting by that that God did not love them who go to hell?
That spoken of in 1 Tim.2:4 is God’s desire, that all men be saved. Paul by that gives us a glimpse of the heart of God. In context, he gives reason, as a matter of exhortation, why we should pray for others, which is good and acceptable in the sight of God.
Ezek. 18:30-31 involves the nation of Israel, the chosen people of God among all peoples, and not all men. One ought to take the passage in context.
<<<But does He LOVE them and desire them NOT to perish?>>>
Are you suggesting that the “us” in Romans 8:38-39 refers to all men? Context refutes that.
Tong
R4746
Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
If you take that as admonition than it is a contrast and distinction of them from those that Jude speaks about in vs. 4,8,10-17,19, that is your call, and it is so with you then.
<<<...the possibility of not-keeping is clearly in view...>>>
In your take perhaps. But I don’t see that at all in the writings of Jude there.
“But you” (hymeis de) in vs.17 & 20, is a comparative phrase. And I take it like so.
Let me quote the passage to see exactly what it says:
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Paul was not speaking about the Christian's personal conduct, but about his or her position in Christ.
<<<We are reconciled through Jesus IF WE CONTINUE in the faith firm ...and not be moved away from Jesus! Why do you think Paul wrote that?>>>
"If" introduces a condition that qualifies what he said for it to be meaningfully true, that, reconciled to God. Paul by it, assumed his readers would do what he described in v.23 because such is normal for genuine believers (see 2 Cor. 5:17; Phil. 1:6; 1 John 2:19). For it is what they made to be, now already a new creation in Christ Jesus.
Paul wrote that so that the true believers may know their position in Christ and what it is that is expected in them.
Nope. It is not what empowered their disassociation, that is the question. Hebrews 6:4-6 as I pointed out clearly tells us of the impossibility of being renewed to repentance. In other words, there is no such thing as a saved person unto eternal life, being unsaved and being saved again.
Tong
R4747
There is nothing in what you say there refutes what I said. Perhaps, you don’t refute what I said?
So, “since”, “while” were not a translation of any Greek text?
<<<Do you not see the connection between this and Heb10:26, and 3:8, 12-13, and 4:11?>>>
While they are all connected, they are not saying the same things. They are not a repetition of one and the same point.
<<<If we continue sinning willfully (which is exactly what is happening in 6:4-6!), His sacrifice no longer covers us>>>
Firstly, Hebrews 6:4-6 does not say anything about “continue sinning willfully” but of “falling away”. And it also is not saying anything like “His sacrifice no longer covers us”.
Secondly, Hebrews 6:4-6 as I pointed out clearly tells us of the impossibility of being renewed to repentance. In other words, there is no such thing as a saved person unto eternal life, being unsaved and being saved again.
Tong
R4748
What do you mean by “turn back to sin”? Do you mean as to cease to believe in God and in Jesus Christ and in the gospel?
If you mean that, your question would be invalid to me. For as I pointed out, Hebrews 6:4-6 clearly tells us of the impossibility of being renewed to repentance ~ a thing that could only apply to true believers. In other words, there is no such thing as a saved person unto eternal life, being unsaved and being saved unto eternal life again. And to make that sound even worst or absurd, speaks of being unsaved again and being saved again, and on and on it goes.
Why do you even bring that up and ask that when I am not even saying that those “"partnered-in-the-Holy-Spirit" are unsaved?
<<<Those in Heb6:4-6 were saved, until they were "parapiptos-falling-away" (perhaps "having fallen").>>>
That is the presumption. For the writer of Hebrews could only presume that they all are true believers. But like us, we do not know if all are true believers. But whether all are or not, does not change the point of the writer. That it is impossible for true believers to be renewed again to repentance, if it were that a true believer falls away.
<<<That's correct.>>>
I take that as agreeing with all that I said there.
<<<Now please connect 2Pet1:5-11 -- the godly qualities are not optional, we are to supply them in our faith; for he who LACKS those qualities is blind shortsighted having forgotten purification from former sins. >>>
<<<the godly qualities are not optional>>>
Not optional for what? For one’s salvation unto eternal life? If that is what you are referring to, perhaps you might want to read 2 Peter 1 again and study that. It is about Christian growth.
What make certain about His calling and election doe not mean, is that by pursuing Christian growth, we give evidence that God really did call and choose us. The uncalled and unchosen have no desire to become useful and fruitful by growing in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Only if believers add to their faith the character qualities Peter describes will God add to him a rich entrance to the kingdom. Heavenly reward, not salvation from hell, is the subject here. For so some does enter the kingdom, not having such rich entrance, but so as through fire.
The writer of Hebrews tells us the kind of “spiritual immaturity” in those to whom he writes to in Hebrews in Hebrews 5:12-14, 6:1-2.
Paul also gives as an idea of those who are babes in Christ in 1 Cor.3:1-4.
Tong
R4749
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And why not express “movement”, if he sees no “movement” such as what is expected of a true believer? That he does so, supports the position that the writer presumes they are true believers. Else, he would most likely addressing them differently and telling them a different word and message.
<<<Again, if he presumed they were saved, why would he warn them not to fall?>>>
Addressed that above.
<<<The warnings are real warnings against movement. What about 2Cor11:3?>>>
2 Cor.11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
What about? Do not forget that the church in Corinth are as babe in Christ. They are yet immature, weak in faith, though are saved in Christ Jesus. So that, in v.3, Paul have that fear concerning them. In v.4, Paul goes on to say in connection to that, “For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!”
By the way, who is the “he” in v.4? The serpent ~ Satan?
Verse 4 tells us what is the fear of Paul concerning them. For they lack spiritual maturity, making them to be so easily deceived as was Eve, who was a picture of immaturity.
In vs.5:11-6:2, we find in there the reason why the writer paused his teaching at 5:10, concerning Jesus Christ, and the spiritual state of the recipients, that is, they have become dull of hearing. They have become sluggish, so that the writer in 6:12 express desire concerning them, that they “do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”
After telling them what he wrote in 5:11-6:3, he went on to proceed to feed them meat, so to speak, as he had begun so from the start of his writing, speaking about more than the elementary principles of Christ. In v.4-6, he tells them of a truth concerning true believers, that is, the impossibility of them to be renewed again to repentance, if it were that they fall away. Now that is not milk but meat. And so too are the rest that follows.
Tong
R4750
Thank you.
So then why don't you consider this a settled matter?
Because what that passage says, without any ambiguity, is that if you've been raised with Christ, you've also died with Him, and you will appear with Him in glory.
So . . . have you been raised with Christ? Has this happened with you? If so, then why would you think you won't appear with Christ in glory?
You talk about an ongoing choice . . . where is that in this passage?
You have not pointed to something in this passage about an ongoing choosing. The passage is directive towards those who have been raised with Him, and teaches about those ones.
It's a simple statement, "If this is you, then that's going to happen."
It seems to me that though you answer "yes", that in fact you do not believe it. Because you keep telling people that even if they've been raised with Christ, having died, that they might actually NOT appear with Him. And apparently you chalk that up to their "making bad choices" or something like that.
It seems to me you teach in direct contradiction to this passage.
Much love!
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
What exactly can we know and not know?
Much love!
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
What exactly can we know and not know?
Much love!
<<<"And FALLING AWAY" -- it really means falling away, but no one can fall away from a place he never was.>>>
Falling away is perceived to be real, by any and all who profess and claims to be a Christian, for so all of them believes they are saved, whether that be true or not. So the argument that no one can fall away from a place he never was, will not hold.
But we are talking about Hebrews 6:7-8. And my question is simple. In your reading of the passage, which will be burned, the ground or the thorns and thistles?
<<<To imitate those who faithfully inherit eternity!>>>
Different from the scriptures, and I quote “imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”
<<<encouragement to what?>>>
It is not an encouragement to do this and that to inherit eternal life. It is encouragement to not be sluggish, and instead show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, as did those who inherit the promises, and to imitate them.
Don’t you know why such was the desire of the writer concerning them? It is because they have become sluggish, have become dull of hearing (5:12).
Don’t you think that is too general an answer? Who are those who diligently guard against deception?
If they were to imitate them, don’t you think the writer should point to at least someone the recipients all know about as one who through faith and patience inherit the promises?
Who is refusing scriptures? I don’t think one of us is.
Between the deceiver and the deceived , who do you say is the one who commits sin? Is it a sin to be deceived?
Tong
R4752
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So, when we come across passages such as 1 Tim.4:16, we keep in mind the truth that salvation is of God, even all of God.
What is your thought about that - why all of God and nothing of us?
So, while you believe that salvation is all of God, you don’t believe that salvation is by God? You don’t believe that salvation is brought about by God’s working? Do you not see an inconsistency there?
When scriptures says God is the Savior, it makes God as the one who works out to save the man. It is not like He is the Savior when he just provide for something that makes it possible for man to save himself. It is not like He is the Savior when He just offer something that when man choose to receive it, the man will get himself saved.
Salvation is not like for example, we are a slave or prisoner of someone and are too weak to even rise up and walk, and He freely buys you off to set you free from your enslaver, and leaves you off on your own to decide what you want to do with your freedom. Salvation is not like a free gift, like a ticket to heaven offered for us to take or not, that when we take it, we are saved and will go to heaven, and when when we take it not, we will not be saved and go to hell.
Nope. Salvation is by God. He is the Savior. It is like for example, a slave or prisoner of someone and are too weak to even rise up and walk, and He freely buys you off to set you free from your enslaver, and takes care of you, feeds you, making you strong, and adopts you to be His child, taking you to be His own family and brings you home and keeps you safe with Him forever and more.
<<<Salvation is by God's grace through our faith; Robertson says on Eph2:8 "grace is God's part, faith is ours".>>>
So, even while you believe that salvation is ALL of God, you believe that you have a part in it. Don’t you see an inconsistency there?
See my comments on each of your answers.
Tong
R4753
noun
par·a·ble
| \ ˈper-ə-bəl , ˈpa-rə- \
: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
// the Biblical parable of the Good Samaritan
Note: a moral attitude (not attitudes); a religious principle (not principles)
What is the purpose of the parables of Jesus? In mark 4:11, Jesus said to His disciples, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,”.
Jesus’ parables in scriptures therefore were to illustrate a moral attitude or religious principle, for us to know about the kingdom of God.
Now, let’s take the parable of the prodigal son that you referred to. What is the moral attitude, or the religious principle, sought to be illustrated, that concerns the kingdom of God?
Is it that a son will no longer be a son when he demands of his inheritance and leaves home and squanders it? Nope.
See my comments on the segment above regarding parables and the parable of the prodigal son.
This was what you said in reference to that passage and I quote: “In Heb12:7-9 if we REFUSE God's discipline (even though WE WERE partners in it), then we are no longer sons but have become illegitimate!”
As you see, what you said there is nowhere said in the passage. What you say there is apparently coming from you, and is your own opinion.
Now, you asked what you missed? The point of the passage. The point is that one is an illegitimate and is not a son, if he is without chastening.
Tong
R4754
That is, by definition, "antinomianism" -- the father's house was allegory for God's kingdom. Drunkenness, fornication, carousing, debauchery, will not remove us from God's kingdom.
(...yes they will...)[/QUOTE]
As I said I will not defend what antinomianism. I never mentioned it nor referred to it, nor knows what it is about.
<<<If God did it then Pharaoh did not; if Pharaoh did, then God did not. If Pharaoh did 51.7% and God 48.3%, then God is complicit in "hard-heart sinfulness".>>>
But that is not how it is. Scriptures said Pharaoh hardened his heart. Scriptures also said God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
The hardening of God of Pharaoh’s heart does not make God a sinner. He is sovereign and is not accountable to any one. He hardens according to His good purpose and according to the counsel of His will and His divine nature.
What is the sense of scriptures saying God hardened Pharaoh’s heart if it means He really did not? What sense does it make that God had raised up Pharaoh that He may show His power in him, and that His name may be declared in all the earth? How do you suppose God will bring that about in Pharaoh?
How will you make sense of Exod. 4:21, which says:
21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
How will you make sense of Ex7:3-5, which says:
3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4 But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them.”
How do you suppose God will multiply His signs and His wonders in the land of Egypt?
How do you suppose God will lay His hand on Egypt and bring His armies and His people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments?
How do you suppose God will surely accomplish all that, if He just rely on what Pharaoh will do? Will God fail should Pharaoh not harden his heart? What then becomes of God’s word to Moses and Aaron and to the children of Israel, and even to the Egyptians, if He fails?
As I said, not that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, that God becomes a sinner. He had good purpose in doing so. And He does it to make sure that His purpose will be accomplished just as He planned. For God knew Pharaoh’s heart and knew that he will eventually let the people go, perhaps even after only doing 2 or 3 plagues and the 10th plague. But God wanted to multiply His signs and wanders. So He hardened Pharaoh. And God wanted to lay His hand on Egypt by great judgment. And so He hardened Pharaoh’s heart to make a great judgment over Egypt, the ten plagues.
If you read the ten plagues, many a time Pharaoh had softened his heart (Exod.10:8) and was willing to let the people go, as was on the 8th plague. But God hardened his heart so that he won’t let the people go (Exod. 10:20). Also on the 9th plague, Pharaoh softened his heart (Exod. 10:24). But God hardened his heart so that he won’t let the people go (Exod. 10:27). Even after the people went out of Egypt after the 10th plague, God continued to harden Pharaoh’s heart to accomplish His purpose (Exod.14).
Tong
R4755
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