Matthew 28:19 – Trinity corrupted verse

[Wrangler]

Jesus says: I and My Father are ONE (Echad) John 10:30

Don't you realize how ridiculous what you are saying is? In light of John 20:31, that all that John wrote is to prove Jesus is not God incarnate but the Messiah and John 17:22, we also are one with God. It does not make us God.

The expression simply means 'on the same page' and is still used today.

 

[David in NJ]

Don't you realize how ridiculous what you are saying is? In light of John 20:31, that all that John wrote is to prove Jesus is not God incarnate but the Messiah and John 17:22, we also are one with God. It does not make us God.

The expression simply means 'on the same page' and is still used today.

Like I said before wrangler, I can always count on you for a good laugh.

 

[Illuminator]

Don't you realize how ridiculous what you are saying is? In light of John 20:31, that all that John wrote is to prove Jesus is not God incarnate but the Messiah and John 17:22, we also are one with God. It does not make us God.

The expression simply means 'on the same page' and is still used today.

Not so fast.
John 1:1 – John writes, “the Word was God.” This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ’s divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah’s bible, the passage was changed to “Word was a god.” This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).

John 1:2-3 – He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 – the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 – the Greek word for “only-begotten” is “monogenes” which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 – the angels of God – Matt. 13:41 – Son of Man’s angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 – Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 – Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God – Col. 1:13 – Paul says this is Jesus’ Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 – Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

 

[keithr]

Jesus says: I and My Father are ONE (Echad) John 10:30

'Echad' is a Hebrew word. The Greek word that's translated as 'one' in John 10:30 is 'heis' (hice), which means 'one', but doesn't mean 'more than one united'. It's the exact same word that Jesus/John uses in chapter 17 when Jesus prays for unity and love among Christians (IMO):

20) Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who will believe in me through their word,

[believe the Apostle's teachings, not the teachings of future men who cause a falling away from the truth]​

21) that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
22) The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;
23) I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.
24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.

If Jesus is God then why does he need to pray to his Father? Why does he pray for Christians throughout the following 2,000 years or so, when all authority in heaven and earth has been given to him by his Father and God? (Matthew 28:18). And if he is God then how was somone else able to give him authority? Does God need permission and authority from someone else? Why, if Jesus is God, did he need his Father and God to give him glory?

 

[David in NJ]

'Echad' is a Hebrew word. The Greek word that's translated as 'one' in John 10:30 is 'heis' (hice), which means 'one', but doesn't mean 'more than one united'. It's the exact same word that Jesus/John uses in chapter 17 when Jesus prays for unity and love among Christians (IMO):

20) Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who will believe in me through their word,

[believe the Apostle's teachings, not the teachings of future men who cause a falling away from the truth]​

21) that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
22) The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one;
23) I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.
24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.

If Jesus is God then why does he need to pray to his Father? Why does he pray for Christians throughout the following 2,000 years or so, when all authority in heaven and earth has been given to him by his Father and God? (Matthew 28:18). And if he is God then how was somone else able to give him authority? Does God need permission and authority from someone else? Why, if Jesus is God, did he need his Father and God to give him glory?

You forget that Jesus came into the world a Hebrew of the lineage of David - Jesus spoke in the native language of the Jews which is Hebrew.
Jesus is the WORD from the beginning.
When Jesus said "My Father and I are One - He spoke in Hebrew according to the TORAH.

The New Covenant is hidden to those who are perishing - 1st the Jews and 2nd all who reject Yehovah = Jesus.

 

[keithr]

It's very relevant. The ECF were unanimous in their beliefs about the Trinity, as it developed. You have deviated from the whole Church based on the formation of recent made-in-America cults.

I don't care how many people were unaminous in their beliefs, if their beliefs were an apostasy, a falling away from the truth that Jesus and the Apostles taught. As Jude and Peter wrote:

1:3) I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
2 Peter 3:
1) ... I stir up your sincere mind by reminding you;
2) that you should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior:

I study and believe the word of God in the Bible, rather than the writings of confused/deceived people. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16), but I don't believe the writings of the ECF (whoever they are - English Chess Federarion, European Coffee Federation?) is Scripture.

You have invented a new doctrine, contrary to centuries of development. So you blindly dismiss what the early Church believed as "irrelevant"

I believe what the Apostles and the Church believed in the beginning, and as it is written in the Bible, rather than what the Church came to believe many years later; so I have not invented new doctrine. Hence this thread, aiming to determine what the Scriptures originally said rather than the corrupted version. I value the truth - God's word is truth (John 17:17).

Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same divine substance,

Where does it say that in the Bible? You need to support your claims with Bible references to prove you're not just making it up.

 

[keithr]

You forget that Jesus came into the world a Hebrew of the lineage of David - Jesus spoke in the native language of the Jews which is Hebrew.

The Gospel of John is written in Greek, regardless of what language Jesus spoke. Jesus and the disciples are believed to have spoken Aramaic - Hebrew was only used for religious purposes.

 

[David in NJ]

The Gospel of John is written in Greek, regardless of what language Jesus spoke. Jesus and the disciples are believed to have spoken Aramaic - Hebrew was only used for religious purposes.

The New Covenant was written in a foreign language other then Hebrew (Greek/Aramaic) so that the Scripture would be fulfilled regarding the Prophetic Life of Joseph.

 

[farouk]

It is not us who disregard Jesus Words.

We who know Jesus, know and believe Jesus when He speaks of the Father.

Jesus says: I and My Father are ONE (Echad) John 10:30

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow ME: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
SAME AS:
And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Great verses there.

Although the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible, what the word refers to is indeed gloriously present in Scripture.

 

[David in NJ]

I don't care how many people were unaminous in their beliefs, if their beliefs were an apostasy, a falling away from the truth that Jesus and the Apostles taught. As Jude and Peter wrote:

1:3) I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
2 Peter 3:
1) ... I stir up your sincere mind by reminding you;
2) that you should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior:

I study and believe the word of God in the Bible, rather than the writings of confused/deceived people. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16), but I don't believe the writings of the ECF (whoever they are - English Chess Federarion, European Coffee Federation?) is Scripture.


I believe what the Apostles and the Church believed in the beginning, and as it is written in the Bible, rather than what the Church came to believe many years later; so I have not invented new doctrine. Hence this thread, aiming to determine what the Scriptures originally said rather than the corrupted version. I value the truth - God's word is truth (John 17:17).


Where does it say that in the Bible? You need to support your claims with Bible references to prove you're not just making it up.

keithr, you believe what you believe and you think you have the scriptures understood - But the scriptures belong to God and His children.
In the beginning God = In the beginning was the Word.

This understanding does not belong to you - by your own words.

This is why God said , people will twist scripture to their own condemnation.

For us who believe God, Eternal Life is in Jesus - No where else.

 

[keithr]

The New Covenant was written in a foreign language other then Hebrew (Greek/Aramaic) so that the Scripture would be fulfilled regarding the Prophetic Life of Joseph.

You what? :

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Absolutely. No kind of god is a false God. Why do you disregard Jesus saying his Father is the only true God?

IKf there is only one true God. all others are false. I do not wish to waste time with you as well doing first grade grammar. If something is not true- it is false.

 

[keithr]

In the beginning God = In the beginning was the Word.

This understanding does not belong to you - by your own words.

I perfectly understand that the Word [Jesus] existed and was with God [Yahweh] (John 1:1) "in the beginning [when] God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), according to the word of God (the Bible).

This is why God said , people will twist scripture to their own condemnation.

Reference? I'm aware of Peter saying regarding Paul's letters, "There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:16, ESV). Twisting difficult to understand verses of Scripture is how we ended up with the Trinity doctrine!

For us who believe God, Eternal Life is in Jesus - No where else.

Correct, but I don't understand why you're mentioning this.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I perfectly understand that the Word [Jesus] existed and was with God [Yahweh] (John 1:1) "in the beginning [when] God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), according to the word of God (the Bible).


Reference? I'm aware of Peter saying regarding Paul's letters, "There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:16, ESV). Twisting difficult to understand verses of Scripture is how we ended up with the Trinity doctrine!


Correct, but I don't understand why you're mentioning this.

Do you also understand that Jesus is also called Yahweh and Elohim and Adonai in the OT along with the Father.

Remember elohim and Adonai are plural nouns

 

[David in NJ]

I perfectly understand that the Word [Jesus] existed and was with God [Yahweh] (John 1:1) "in the beginning [when] God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), according to the word of God (the Bible).


Reference? I'm aware of Peter saying regarding Paul's letters, "There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:16, ESV). Twisting difficult to understand verses of Scripture is how we ended up with the Trinity doctrine!


Correct, but I don't understand why you're mentioning this.

It was not God the Father who created everything -

He(Jesus) was with God in the beginning. Through Him (Jesus) all things were made, and without Him(Jesus) nothing was made that has been made. In Him(Jesus) was life, and that life was the light of men.…

 

[Illuminator]

πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος, (Matthew 28:19, Greek Bible)

1.) HOW CAN ONE GOD BE THREE DIVINE PERSONS?

The presence of the article “the” (τοῦ) before Son and Holy Spirit where all three are connected by “and” (καὶ ) indicates three distinct persons.

“If two nouns of the same case are connected by a “kai” (and) and the article (the) is used with both nouns, they refer to different persons or things. If only the first noun has the article, the second noun refers to the same person or thing referred to in the first.”
{Curtis Vaughn, and Virtus Gideon, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament” (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1979), p. 83.}”

2.) HOW CAN GOD EXIST AS THREE PERSONS AND YET BE ONE GOD? IS THE TRINITY EQUAL EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE DIFFERENT ROLES?

As for Matthew 28.19-20, the one ‘name’ indicates, I believe, one being, while the actual three names listed show equality between Father, Son, and Spirit.”

“These believers are to be baptized “in the [one] name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, ” that is the Triune God. The single name embraces the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one distinct Deity; otherwise, Matthew would have said “names.” (Exegetical Commentary on Matthew, Page 517)

“In the Greek, the word “Name” is singular (to onoma) followed by three titles. This emphasizes the unity of the trinity.” (A Commentary on the Manuscripts and text of the New Testament, Page 177)

The “Son” and the “Holy Spirit” are grammatically on the same level as the “Father.”

3.) IS MATTHEW 28.19 AUTHENTIC OR A FORGERY?

I attached the screenshot of Codex Sinaiticus and highlighted the Matthew 28:19 passage. Codex Sinaiticus is an Alexandrian text-type document written and published during the 4th century.

The divine “Father” is written as nomen sacrum (sacred name) in א A W; “Son” is written as a nomen sacrum (sacred name) in A Maj; the divine “Spirit” is written as a nomen sacrum (sacred name) in א A D W.

Bart Ehrman is an intellectual with the flair of clarifying complicated wordy issues. He wrote many best-selling books on textual criticism and biblical text. The attacks of Bart Ehrman on the New Testament’s dependability benefited Muslims so they can destroy the Bible’s credibility. According to Bart Ehrman, “It must be acknowledged that the first reading is the one found in the manuscripts that are the oldest and generally considered to be the best—those of the Alexandrian textual family.”(Misquoting Jesus, Pages 161-162)

One of the greatest New Testament scholars of the 20th century, Dr. Bruce Metzger said:

“The Neutral text, as its question-begging name implies, is, in the opinion of Westcott and Hort, the most free from later corruption and mixture and the nearest to the text of the autographs. It is best represented by Codex Vaticanus (B) and net by Codex Sinaiticus (א). The occurrence of these two manuscripts is very strong and shows that they cannot be far from the original text. “( The Text of the New Testament, Page 179)​

DOES MATTHEW 28: 19 PROVE THE TRINITY? By Bro. Duane - THE SPLENDOR OF THE CHURCH

 

[Illuminator]

I don't care how many people were unaminous in their beliefs, if their beliefs were an apostasy, a falling away from the truth that Jesus and the Apostles taught.

Why didn't anyone notice this "falling away" until the middle of a 16th century revolt? It would have been a major historical event, so why is there no mention of this "falling away" in any historical record?

I study and believe the word of God in the Bible, rather than the writings of confused/deceived people. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16), but I don't believe the writings of the ECF (whoever they are - English Chess Federarion, European Coffee Federation?) is Scripture.

Interesting. You admit you don't know who they are but feel qualified to judge them as "confused/deceived people".

I believe what the Apostles and the Church believed in the beginning, and as it is written in the Bible, rather than what the Church came to believe many years later; so I have not invented new doctrine. Hence this thread, aiming to determine what the Scriptures originally said rather than the corrupted version. I value the truth - God's word is truth (John 17:17).

Where does it say that in the Bible? You need to support your claims with Bible references to prove you're not just making it up.

In other words, "God's truth" is based on your private opinion what the Scriptures originally said, there is no higher authority than what you think. It always boils down to who has the authority, doesn't it? Can you name one Early Church Father that fell into apostasy? Or do you just make blind assertions without any thought or research? Some of the ECF were taught directly by the Apostles; they should know something about what the Scriptures mean. Your arrogance is typical.
Jesus founded a living, indefectible, indestructible CHURCH, not a book club. If you don't believe what the Bible says about the CHURCH, you don't believe the Bible!

The stupidity of "sola scriptura".

 

[Marymog]

God guides us to the truth throughout our lives; He doesn't reveal all of the truth to us instantly. We are all at different stages along that path, so it's not surprising that there is some disagreement among Christians.

Thank you.

Who taught you that? If it is YOUR teaching then your teachings are leaving me confused.

You believe we are all at different stages along the path to truth and that God doesn’t reveal all of the truth to us instantly but he guides us to the truth throughout our lives. If what you say is true then why not just find a 95 year old Christian who has been studying the Bible since he was 21 years old and get the truth from him? Based on your theory he would be closer to the truth than me at the age of 55!! Shouldn’t we just get our truth from all the old Christians?

Mary

BTW...I am 55 years old so if you are younger than me you should listen to me since I am closer to the truth than you.

 

[Marymog]

1 Timothy 3:15 (MKJV): "that you may know how you ought to behave in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."

The whole church is the house (temple) of God, not just a few Christians. So yes, you are part of the pillar and foundation.

Hi keithr.

Have you read 1 Timothy 3? Did you know it is a pastoral letter. It is instructions on what the requirements are to be a pastor or deacon of a Church.

So putting vs 15 in context with the 14 other verses before it vs 15 is telling PASTORS and DEACONS on how they should “behave in the house of God”. So your theory that I or you or the average church going Christian is the pillar and foundation of truth is not backed up by the vs you provided.

Who taught you these things? Or are you self taught?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

No. Jesus says in that passage that you should first confront the person who sins (just you and him in conversation):

15) “If your brother sins against you, go, show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained back your brother.​

Then with 1 or 2 other Christians:

16) But if he doesn’t listen, take one or two more with you, that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.​

And finally the whole local church:

17) If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the assembly. If he refuses to hear the assembly also, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector.​

So Jesus doesn't say a few elite members of the Church should try to correct the sinner, it says any individual like yourself can do it, or just 2 or 3 members of the church, or the whole local church can be involved, but he doesn't say that just a few elite members should always tell others what they should believe. It's only about judging whether somebody has sinned against you.

Good Morning.

I think its interesting how you quoted the corrupted World English Bible that uses the word “assembly” instead of church in vs 17. None the less.......Did you read vs 18? It says exactly OPPOSITE of what you have been taught. Jesus is talking to the Apostles and telling them....and them alone....”whatever things YOU bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever things YOU release on earth will have been released in heaven.” So YES it is just a few elite members of the Church correct the sinner and decide if they should be kicked out of the Church. That is what is meant as being treated as a gentile or tax collector...your kicked out. Putting your theory into practice what if 50% of the assembly says....No, he didn’t sin against his brother....the other 50% of the assembly says...Yes, he sinned against his brother.....What do you do then keither?

Back to bible study: So putting those passages IN CONTEXT your teaching (or what you have been taught) suggest that when MY church (assembly) makes a decision that my brother has sinned against me he is to be treated as a gentile or tax collector. According to Jesus that decision is binding on earth and in heaven.

But if he runs across the street to YOUR church (assembly) and your church decides that what my brother did against me wasn’t a sin then that same decision....that is was NOT a sin...is bound on earth and in heaven. Which is totally opposite of what my Church decided. Can you see how what you have been taught is opposite of what Scripture teaches?

Maybe we should go ask a 95 year old Christian and settle this once and for all :)

Mary