God changed Seventh Day Sabbath Worship to First Day of the Week

[Ziggy]

The Bible isn't 'simple'

It is and it isn't at the same time.
On the surface.. a child can understand it.
What does Paul call it.. the first principles, the milk.

When you start digging into the meat, some of it is hard to chew like grizzle.
And if your not careful you will choke on it.
Some is fine and dainty meats, others can be wild and tough.

There are always new things to learn though, easy or tough.
You just have to have patience chewing..
And pray others have patience with your chewing also.. lol

:)
Thank you
Hugs

 

[post]

It is and it isn't at the same time.
On the surface.. a child can understand it.
What does Paul call it.. the first principles, the milk.

When you start digging into the meat, some of it is hard to chew like grizzle.
And if your not careful you will choke on it.
Some is fine and dainty meats, others can be wild and tough.

There are always new things to learn though, easy or tough.
You just have to have patience chewing..
And pray others have patience with your chewing also.. lol

:)
Thank you
Hugs

**sits down to eat with Ziggy**

 

[post]

This was for practical reasons, so they could still attend services at the Synagogue on the Sabbath Day

If you read the writings of early Christians, none of them ever give that as a reason for meeting on what we call sunday, that I'm aware of.

They say they did that because it's the day of the week Christ rose. They called it the 8th day, and they met at sunrise to sing together, and later in the afternoon to eat together. They called that shared meal the Lord's supper.

Today's churches are quite different.


That doesn't mean that 'sabbath was changed' - I agree, that's a ridiculous thing for people to think.
It means they weren't keeping sabbath. In fact they rather quickly made a point of saying that they were NOT keeping sabbath, completely differentiating themselves from Judaism.

 

[post]

I don't think the world is ready to set aside the classroom.

I don't think we are either.
For example, Elisha and the two bears that killed 42 young men of a mob who were accosting him, outside Bethel, near the double-bull abominable altar.
That's a picture of Christ. It testifies of Him.

Do we understand how? I don't, not in any complete way. But I know it is.
Sonim not ready to set down the OT. There is much to learn of Christ in it, so much!

The meat isn't 'touch not taste not!' - those are the stochastic elementary principles, a foundation of repentance and turning to God. That's milk. Meat is wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy

 

[Instant]

If you read the writings of early Christians, none of them ever give that as a reason for meeting on what we call sunday, that I'm aware of.

They say they did that because it's the day of the week Christ rose. They called it the 8th day, and they met at sunrise to sing together, and later in the afternoon to eat together. They called that shared meal the Lord's supper.

Today's churches are quite different.


That doesn't mean that 'sabbath was changed' - I agree, that's a ridiculous thing for people to think.
It means they weren't keeping sabbath. In fact they rather quickly made a point of saying that they were NOT keeping sabbath, completely differentiating themselves from Judaism.

I was just saying that by meeting on the first day of the week, it allowed them to witness in the Synagogue. I base that opinion strictly on scripture and what I can glean from that, not writings of the early church. You may be right in saying that witnessing on the Sabbath may not have been the primary reason for meeting that day. The Bible never says. The bigger issue to me was over the Sabbath rest being changed, as some claim, and the Bible never says that.

 

[Stumpmaster]

It is a law given to prove that they would not obey - so that they must come to Him looking for mercy.
Remember that Exodus 16 comes before Sinai, and it is a test to prove their disobedience. Righteousness does not come through the law. It magnifies sin. The sabbath in particular, is a sign to Israel that they don't sanctify themselves: the LORD does. ((Exodus 31:13, Ezekiel 20:12))

I don't disagree, but Scripture does say the law was added because of transgressions, as a deterent to committing such, so with the declarations of penalties and the many injunctions to obey it given, I believe the aspects of training and discipline as from a tutor remain.
Gal 3:19-25 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. (20) Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. (21) Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. (22) But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. (23) But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. (24) Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (25) But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[post]

I was just saying that by meeting on the first day of the week, it allowed them to witness in the Synagogue. I base that opinion strictly on scripture and what I can glean from that, not writings of the early church. You may be right in saying that witnessing on the Sabbath may not have been the primary reason for meeting that day. The Bible never says. The bigger issue to me was over the Sabbath rest being changed, as some claim, and the Bible never says that.

Totally agree about sabbath. People who think meeting on sunday is 'keeping sabbath' are just crazy. Nuts.

And i get where what you said comes from - how Paul would go to synagogue on sabbath whenever he entered a city, and then meet with Gentiles later. How many believing pharisees were un the church at the beginning ((has that changed at all lol)). But Paul is evangelizing, not having regular gatherings, and the gospel is to the Jew first, then the Gentile ((Romans 1:16))- so he went first to the Jews everywhere, even tho he is called to be an apostle to the Gentiles.

Again today's church is very different. We go to the Jews last of all.

But what I want to add is that he's doing this primarily because this is how the gospel is given. To the Jew first. So I think that's an argument not to take him going to synagogue on sabbath as a pattern for our worship or congregation - but for evangelizing. That, and of course scripture has authority that the early church theologians and writers do not have, but they are useful to read, for understanding.

It's true that meeting on the 8th / 1st day had the advantage of not having to choose between synagogue or 'church' - - but I doubt this was ever a primary reason for meeting on sunday. That's the value of having some of what church elders wrote in the first few centuries; we have evidence for when they met, and what they thought about why they met on that day.

That's all =]

 

[Instant]

Totally agree about sabbath. People who think meeting on sunday is 'keeping sabbath' are just crazy. Nuts.

And i get where what you said comes from - how Paul would go to synagogue on sabbath whenever he entered a city, and then meet with Gentiles later. How many believing pharisees were un the church at the beginning ((has that changed at all lol)). But Paul is evangelizing, not having regular gatherings, and the gospel is to the Jew first, then the Gentile ((Romans 1:16))- so he went first to the Jews everywhere, even tho he is called to be an apostle to the Gentiles.

Again today's church is very different. We go to the Jews last of all.

But what I want to add is that he's doing this primarily because this is how the gospel is given. To the Jew first. So I think that's an argument not to take him going to synagogue on sabbath as a pattern for our worship or congregation - but for evangelizing. That, and of course scripture has authority that the early church theologians and writers do not have, but they are useful to read, for understanding.

It's true that meeting on the 8th / 1st day had the advantage of not having to choose between synagogue or 'church' - - but I doubt this was ever a primary reason for meeting on sunday. That's the value of having some of what church elders wrote in the first few centuries; we have evidence for when they met, and what they thought about why they met on that day.

That's all =]

The only thing I would add to what you said is that I have read a lot of writings of the early church, and they did not always agree with each other. Unlike the Bible, what they wrote is not the inerrant Word of God. I do agree that we can get some insight about what they thought by reading their writings, we cannot take any of those things as gospel truth.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Arguing from silence is not a logical fallacy when the silence proves no one heard of, or kept any sabbath day command in Genesis..

The legalist DEMANDING AND COMMANDING GOD : COUGH UP YOUR LAW FOR THE SABBATH OR...!!!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

They hadn’t heard those words before then. D

Adam and his posterity got the death penalty in Eden, not neverending parole.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

1. Moses told Israel THEY HAD TO LEARN the law and Decalogue, and do it - so it was new to them.

2. Moses said neither they OR THEIR FATHERS were given the law and commands given to them on the mountain.

You didn't know?!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

They irrefutably did not have the law and commands until after the Exodus from Egyptian bondage,

Well well well

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

So being told to remember the sabbath, doesn’t prove it was already kept as a requirement (with the death penalty for breaking it, as the law requires).

<<death penalty for breaking it, as the law requires>> Which law are you referring to? Can't be the Fourth or I must be blind. Please show me.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

REMEMBER that YOU (Israel) were slaves in Egypt and I took you out with a mighty hand. THEREFORE (because of your deliverance from Egyptian slavery) I gave YOU (Israel) this sabbath day command.

Elsewhere - everywhere elsewhere, you claim that God took Israel out with a mighty hand WHEREFORE -- because of -- FOR deliverance from Egyptian slavery. THEREFORE I gave YOU (Israel) this Sabbath Day and Command to remember their deliverance.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

That wouldn’t be much of a memorial of REMEMBRANCE and a covenant SIGN - as God calls the sabbath day command in Exodus 31:13 - to give them a command that was ALREADY kept since the 6th day of creation, now would it? Obviously not.

Brightspark contradicting it's pitch darkness

 

[Phoneman777]

I have read Romans 11, numerous times. I have read the OT prophets numerous times. It's why I am Seventh-day Adventist, and no longer Roman Catholic.

The theology you presently espouse is Jesuit theology. Go read their material. You'll see.

I understand your reluctance to read the evidence I provided. It would show your error, quite plainly, and you do not want that. Easier for you to ignore it. I get it, really. When truth comes to us, we have two choices. Right now, you are making the choice Pilate took. You don't have to make that choice, but you are making it none the less.

Romans 11:

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Jesus (Israel of God, the Alpha and Omega) is the good (God alone is good) Tree to which the Remnant (of Israel of the flesh) continued in as original branches (like Peter, James, John, Paul, Nicodemus, Joseph of Armiathaea, etc) and into whom the Gentiles (Cornelius, Ethiopian Eunuch, etc) were graffed in. Israel (after the flesh) as a nation (like the Sanhedrin), can inherit nothing, except it be through Jesus Christ. Individuals (like Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus had) can still be delivered in Christ Jesus through Faith in Him.

2Co_1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.​

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The individuals are called to come into Christ Jesus through faith. If they do not, they are forever lost.

Read it - each verse. If you do not, you have chosen to remain as blind as they of old, and the prophecy of David and Isaiah are for you.

1 Corinthians 10 and 1 Corinthians 15:44-46:

Jesus is Israel (Matthew 2:13-15,19-21; Hosea 11:1; his children are his disciples (they overcome with Him (1 John 2:13-14; Revelation 3:12, 12:11)); Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18; John 13:33), the true "overcomer" (John 16:33; Revelation 3:21), the real "Prince" with God (Isaiah 9:6; Daniel 8:11,25, 9:25, 10:13,21, 11:22, 12:1; Acts 3:15, 5:31; Revelation 1:5), being Lord over His own house, whose house are we (Psalms 98:3; Hebrews 3:6; Jeremiah 31:33), who himself is the "elect" (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 12:18; 1 Peter 2:6) of the Father, in whom all the promises of God find their realization (2 Corinthians 1:20). The promises made by God were all based upon condition (Exodus 19).

Mat 2:13-15,19-21; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

'Israel' after the flesh, as a 'nation', is left desolate (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35), to bear no more fruit ever again (Matthew 21:19), cursed, withered away (Mark 11:21), dried up from the roots (Mark 11:20), "twice dead" (Jude 1:12), and the axe already laid at their root (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), cut down and to be thrown into the fire.

Rom_9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

When Paul in Romans says "And so all Israel shall be saved", in the context it means that all those who are in Christ Jesus (the elect of God, the good Tree, the real Israel of God), shall be saved. Anyone knowingly choosing to remain outside of Him is lost.

There's nothing more sad than a Adventist that is led away by Satan from the truth, thinking they are "enlightened". Our message is as irrefutable today as it has always been, but somehow people prefer the lies of Babylon, her sins, and the plagues which will fall on them in the end.

Of course, God has never changed the Sabbath to the first day of the week, and "Christians" who claim to follow the example of Jesus presume to bargain with God as to the manner in which they will serve Him, when all they have to offer at the bargaining table is a lost soul. So tragic.

 

[Phoneman777]

Elsewhere - everywhere elsewhere, you claim that God took Israel out with a mighty hand WHEREFORE -- because of -- FOR deliverance from Egyptian slavery. THEREFORE I gave YOU (Israel) this Sabbath Day and Command to remember their deliverance.

The Sabbath existed BEFORE they arrived at Sinai in Exodus 20...all the way back in Exodus 16 and all the way back to Eden if we abandon weak, legalistic, dispensationalist views of Scripture: The day was blessed on the day it was created, and most certainly was among the "commandments, statues, and laws" Abraham kept, and will be kept by Christians for all eternity...

...and need I point out that "Israel" is not according to race, but grace? The church is Israel, not those who refused to enter into His Sabbath rest.

 

[Phoneman777]

So is the fact that Paul said that law was not meant for the righteous but for ungodly sinners and murderers, and that Christians are no longer under that law, but have died to it, for before faith came, we were imprisoned by the law, until Jesus and faith came along.

So if you want to quote the NT, quote all it says about the law, like how Christians are dead to the law, and now are married to Jesus instead of the law, and have been DELIVERED FROM the law:


Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not inthe oldness of the letter.


Or quote that the law doesn’t apply to Christians, just to the unconverted, because the law is NOT MEANT for a RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the UNGODLY and for MURDERERS:


1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderersof fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Christians are the righteousness of God in Christ, thus the law, which is not meant for a righteous man, but for the ungodly is null and void for us.


Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


And this agrees:


Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


Thus it hasn’t passed away, it just doesn’t apply to those born again, since it’s only meant for the ungodly and murderers, etc. 1 Tim 1:9 above.


And don’t forget it says that BEFORE faith came, we were imprisoned by the law, locked up by it until the coming of Christ, and now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian:


Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law,imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.


Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.



Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Of course the law is only for those who are sinners...because they need to be taught they are guilty of breaking it!!! But, somehow our hypergrace, OSAS, Anitinomianists friends think after converting from sinner to saint we may continue breaking it? Romans 6:16 KJV is clear Saints who do that will go straight to hell.

Saints don't need to be taught by the law, as by a schoolmaster, because the love for God in their hearts convicts them when they are violating it...so when the Sabbath rolls around each week and we see that we are not observing it and refuse to repent of that, we prove that we actually hate God...because Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commadnments."

 

[ReChoired]

It is the LORD who said that man gathering sticks must be put to death by the whole congregation.

So they shall be:

Sticks & Stones - Do You Stone The Sabbath Breaker - brother Aaron Earnest

Sticks & Stones - Do You Stone The Sabbath Breaker - October 19, 2019 - brother Aaron Earnest : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

https://archive.org/download/sticks...tones - Do You Stone The Sabbath Breaker.pptx

 

[ReChoired]

The Sabbath existed BEFORE they arrived at Sinai in Exodus 20...all the way back in Exodus 16 and all the way back to Eden ...

Yes, it was with Noah also:

The sabbath commandment with Noah (Genesis 6:3,9, 7:4,10,11,13, 8:10,12; 2 Peter 2:5; Psalms 119:172; Luke 17:26-30; Revelation 13:17, 14:6-12; 1 Peter 3:18-21).

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Gen 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

Gen 8:12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
​

God's example of walking is that He worked 6 days and rested the seventh. Noah walked with God in the same. One of the very reasons that the flood came, was the rejection of the Creator and His eternal Law. Mankind did not only die in the flood because of adultery, etc, but also because of sabbath breaking. The twin institutions of Genesis. The first is mankind to mankind, the second is mankind to God (Deity) in relationship, society of earth and society of Heaven. If you read the words of Jesus (Luke 17:26-30 KJB) in His connection of Noe's (Noah's) day and the days of Lot, there was wrong in the eating and drinking, wrong in the marrying, and wrong in the buying and selling, planting and building. When is it wrong to buy and sell, plant and build? what Holy day? You see when Jesus connects the two events, they are as one, just as they are a type of the end when the same issues are seen in their final forms, see Revelation 13:17, 14:6-12.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
​

God the Father, by Jesus the Son, through the Holy Spirit, inspiring Noah, preached repentance towards the Creator and righteousness (right living/conduct/thinking/doing) of the Creator.