The answer is rather simple. There are three phases of salvation: (1) justification, (2) sanctification, and (3) glorification. Those who are justified must also be sanctified. So what is sanctification? Being set apart from (1) sin and evil, (2) the world, the flesh, the devil, and (3) all that is not of faith. In common parlance, God expects you to "clean up your act" after you have been saved by grace. And repentance is a TOTAL TURNING AWAY from sins and idols and turning to God and Christ in full obedience.
Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.
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robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Such 'salvation' is completely passive with man.
God does all the work, even the preparing of the soul, so that they will automatically and passively receive and be saved.
They are made passivists by a neutered salvation: no wars to fight, no struggles to endure, no race to run, no works to do in faith, no working out of a salvation, that they reject.
They do nothing at all. They are the do-nothings of a dead faith. Even living faith is not required. Their boast is in a Goddess of Grace that prepares it all, does it all, and finishes it all.
Any hint of works of faith and of salvation by grace is anathema to them, because it threatens their idolizing of their Goddess: all powerful Grace, that even God cannot overrule, nor His commandment can intrude upon.
It is a predetermined, prepicked, prepared, preserved, predone deal: it is all fated from the beginning and fated unto the end.
It is corruption of losing our life, and laying down our will: it is nihilism of will.
As Paul rebuked the false worship of neglect of body, so they worship their own neglect of will.
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. (1 Tim4)
In the end they deny their own will even exists. There is no gift of God to neglect, because it is all God's, and none of their own. It is a pact with hell and peace with the devil (Is 28:15): the ultimate excuse of 'it's not my fault'. God cannot judge them for anything, because they don't even have a will to do anything of their own.
They cry unconditional peace and safety by the strong delusion, that comes with no conscience, because the work of the Spirit is to convict of sin, but conviction is only for repentance, and repentance is only for justification, and there is no justification with works, because it is all Grace.
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Tim 4)
Paul would not be allowed to enter the house, because He does not bring the doctrine of a christ of do-nothing salvation by a Grace greater than God.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
I like that: Those who are justified must also be sanctified, an dso those that believe must also be justified: justified in the faith, with good works of faith as Abraham. (James 2)
It is a must that is on our part to do. God gives the increase by grace, but we must do the watering and tilling of the soul. We crucify our old man: Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified for us, that grace may come to all, but we must do our crucifying of our sins.
God gives grace and faith and forgives and saves, but we do the repenting and bring forth works worthy of repentance. We work out our own salvation with God by grace through faith.
Salvation is not by works, but certainly comes with works of faith.
We pull our own weeds. God doesn't do it for us.
You need to work harder at not talking down to people like a condescending ass, if you are to have any expectation of getting a them to listen.
Ephesians 2:10 … where in the salvation process do good works come?
Here are some hints:
- (created by God in advance)
- (for us to WALK in them)
- (we are God’s work of creation)
Good works are the FRUIT that grows out of our saved heart.
Good works are not the ROOTS that cause God to change our heart.
If you cannot understand that distinction, you have nothing to teach me … Pharisee.
Jesus said that we should listen to the Pharisees. They indeed had good doctrine. The problem was their attitude in their practice. Read what you wrote me as if it was addressed to you. Now, without prejudice, ask yourself where such a post comes from in a person. Does it sound like it is coming from someone who is sanctified, sacrificial and Christ-like?
What part of a person is unteachable?
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"You need to work harder at not talking down to people like a condescending ass, if you are to have any expectation of getting a them to listen."
We are seeing the pitiful last gasps of the exposed and naked by Scripture. Like a troll driven under the bridge by the sword, he pops up now an then to spit and fume at passersby.
“Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees”
The yeast of the Pharisees? There's just something silly and childish about wording it that way. "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees" has more substance and manhood to it.
We are seeing the pitiful last gasps of the exposed and naked by Scripture. Like a troll driven under the bridge by the sword, he pops up now an then to spit and fume at passersby.
“Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees”
The yeast of the Pharisees? There's just something silly and childish about wording it that way. "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees" has more substance and manhood to it.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
By grace God heals, and we treat the symptoms.
When we believe Jesus from the heart, God saves our soul by grace and heals our sickness with inward circumcision of the heart. And with salvation we treat and work out the things that accompany salvation: the outward symptoms of sins by repentance from dead works, and maintain outward health of good works, and go on to perfection of producing the fruits of the spirit:
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1)
These are things that accompany salvation, when God does His part by grace to heal, and we do our part to be healthy and grow.
If we do no our part, then we become barren and unfruitful in Christ, and have no part in the body of Christ nor in His First resurrection, because salvation by grace is not without faith, nor without works of faith which accompany salvation of God:
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Once saved, if we lack what is necessary to grown, we become blind to the point of forgetting what we were saved from in the first place: I.e. repentance from dead works is forgotten,a nd dead works are renewed.
When we believe Jesus from the heart, God saves our soul by grace and heals our sickness with inward circumcision of the heart. And with salvation we treat and work out the things that accompany salvation: the outward symptoms of sins by repentance from dead works, and maintain outward health of good works, and go on to perfection of producing the fruits of the spirit:
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1)
These are things that accompany salvation, when God does His part by grace to heal, and we do our part to be healthy and grow.
If we do no our part, then we become barren and unfruitful in Christ, and have no part in the body of Christ nor in His First resurrection, because salvation by grace is not without faith, nor without works of faith which accompany salvation of God:
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Once saved, if we lack what is necessary to grown, we become blind to the point of forgetting what we were saved from in the first place: I.e. repentance from dead works is forgotten,a nd dead works are renewed.
Instant
Active Member
I am not concerned with Calvinism and what it means. Calvin was a man who got hold of some truth and also had some error. The Bible does teach that God is all knowing, and that before we were created in the womb, God knew who would be saved and who would be lost. God is all knowing, so it must be that way. The Bible is filled with instances where someone is told what they will do before they do it. Biblical pre-destination and election simply means that God gives some people the faith to believe and accept Christ and withholds that faith from others. Those who are pre-destined to eternal life will be saved, but we do not know who those people are. Only God knows. What many have done today is twisted this Biblical truth to mean that if we simply believe in Jesus, we are pre-destined saved, and it matters not how they live. A phony, "grace plus nothing" doctrine was created, which is not Biblical. 1 John states that those who do righteous are righteous, and those who continue in sin are of the devil. James states that faith without works is dead. Nobody I know of hates grace. Nobody would be saved without grace, because it is by grace that God grants some the faith to believe and accept Jesus Christ and become his disciple. In addition to that, without grace, nobody, even the most righteous people in their own ability, can measure up to God's standard of holiness. Nobody gets to heaven without grace.
How is grace unconditional? Since grace comes through faith, faith is an obvious condition, and so is repentance for that matter.
Grace is not irresistible either, as the 5 pointers claim.
The Holy Spirit is God, and no man can call Jesus Lord save the Holy Spirit draws them, yet the Holy Spirit is resistible - which falsifies the “I” in TULIP.
Phillip told the crowd of Israelites that the reason they killed the prophets God sent them, and rejected and killed their own Messiah -Jesus- (who originally came just for them John 1:12), is because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.
Act 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered,(Jesus).
Since there’s no - I - in TULIP, then there’s no - U - either.
Shalom Aleichem
You’re not gleaning the full import of that passage: in it, Peter says we must MAKE our calling and ELECTION sure, by ADDING to our faith the FRUIT of virtue, Godliness, and love (charity), and he says that IF WE DO that, we won’t FALL, and we will have an entrance into heaven.
That our election isn’t SURE until we MAKE it sure, by adding fruit to our faith, and will fall if we don’t make it sure, is fatal to reformed election doctrine aka Calvinism.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Shalom Aleichem
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
"How is grace unconditional? Since grace comes through faith, faith is an obvious condition, and so is repentance for that matter.Grace is not irresistible either, as the 5 pointers claim."
Agreed. But I don't read Scripture where 'grace comes' anywhere. Salvation and righteousness comes by grace through faith. Faith with repentance is the obvious condition of Salvation and Justification by grace. We cannot possibly be saved by grace without repentance from dead works, because we must first repent to be converted:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out. (Acts 3)
I use 'unconditional grace' in that grace is now available to all without respect of persons, since the death of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection: now the grace of God is the shining of the Sun of righteousness upon all: the just and the unjust alike, as is the Spirit of God poured out upon all flesh. (Acts 2)
Salvation by grace is conditioned on belief in Jesus, which comes with repentance from dead works, and continued salvation with justification, which are both by grace, is conditioned on doing the work of faith, as did Abraham. (James 2)
So, we certainly agree on conditional salvation, just not on the term 'unconditional' grace. Partaking of God's grace is conditioned on faith, even as seeing the Light of the Sun shining is on opening our eyes, but grace shining upon all is unconditional, whether any open their eyes to see or not: Grace is unconditionally available forever, even as the blood of the Lamb, which secured grace to shine for all, is incorruptible.
The shining of grace is red as the dawn, blood red, as 'rosy-fingered' dawn.
The repentance that leads to conversion is separate from having faith, you do know that, I hope?
Paul taught in Acts 20:21 repentance towards God AND faith towards Jesus is necessary.
One can believe in Jesus without choosing to repent of their sins. They of course can’t be saved that way, it takes both.
Unfortunately there’s the claim being made today that repentance, metaneo, changing one’s mind about sin and turning away from it and towards God, is included in believing in Jesus.
Shalom Aleichem
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Faith without works is dead. And so many mistake 'faith' alone with believing God, or having faith towards God that follows Repentance from dead works, which is the first listed of the first principles of the doctrine of Christ. (Heb 6:1)
Abraham believed God and so was imputed righteousness from God, but beforehand he certainly had faith in the One God that was true, but then so do the devils. (James 2:10) But only when he obeyed that faith and performed the deed was He justified with God.
Scriptural belief in God and faith toward God is always accompanied with obedience to God: obedience to the faith. (Rom 1:5)
Those who err in separating 'faith' from obedience say that they are saved by grace through faith only, or faith alone. And the only Scripture that speaks of faith alone is of a faith that is dead, being alone.
They also therefore separate salvation from repentance, and even go so far as to separate repentance of the mind only from that of dead works outwardly, which is a salvation without justification of God, and so is a salvation of man's mind only: They have faith to believe they are saved apart from faith toward God to do His will.
They have isolated to themselves a faith, salvation, justification, and repentance from any doing thereof, deed of obedience to the faith: faith that is without works of faith.
And this is all unconditionally done by grace of God inwardly: they even refuse to believe in the salvation of God that is accompanied with the things of God, such as repentance from dead works and faith toward God to obey Him.
They separate salvation from the things that accompany it: and accompany it literally means 'having with' it, the things of God that come with it.
By cutting off the things of God that accompany His salvation, they cut themselves off from the salvation of God that comes by grace.
Romans 3 … but don’t let me distract you. Let’s see how high it will pile before it collapses under the weight of reality.
Phoneman777
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Ahhhhhhh, the old "the lost were never really saved to begin with" argument in an attempt to overthrow the clear Biblical teaching that that saved can be lost because salvation is conditional on whether we make a full, permanent surrender to Jesus. Perhaps I should remind you that words mean things:
In Matthew 7:22 KJV, did Jesus say, "ALL" will say to Me in that day, Lord Lord..."??? Or, did He say, "MANY" will say to Me in that day, Lord Lord.."??? That's right...He said "MANY", not "ALL".
Therefore, the fact that there will be "many" shocked lost people that learn on Judgment Day they are unknown to Jesus does not mean "all" lost people will be unknown to Jesus...because unlike the "many" who never made a full surrender to Jesus and thus were never known by Him, there will be other lost people that did make a full surrender...but failed to "abide in the Vine", "endure to the end", "continue in My word", etc., etc., etc., and will wind up like the Unmerciful Servant who, after he was fully forgiven of his impossible debt, had that forgiveness revoked and "the latter end of him was worse than the beginning".
Read Matthew 24:12-13 KJV and you'll see the saints of verse 12 who wind up lost are contrasted by Jesus with the saints of verse 13 who "endure to the end" and "shall be saved".
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robert derrick
Well-Known Member
When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered. (Ezek 3:20)
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Psalms 69)
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev 3)
What was once known by God is no more remembered by God: whether righteousness or name.
Jesus will not confess a name He does not know, and He will deny He ever knew them that deny Him before men, which is to deny Him by works, though they claim Him by name.
It must be a truly wondrous thing to reach the point in Christian growth where one can correct the Apostle John and even the Lord Jesus Himself when a direct quote from them and THEIR words disagrees with your opinions. I am in awe of your hubris.
Phoneman777
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I've used that passage repeatedly to show the hypergrace crowd that "I never knew you" can be interpreted as God "remembering no more" the names of the righteous who turned back impenitently to wickedness, and they always argue, "Well, it says He NEVER knew them and that would make God a liar if they were once saved" which is a weak argument at best by virtue of the verses to which you refer in Ezekiel...but there is NO getting around the fact that Jesus said "many" -- not "all" -- will be unknown to Him on Judgment Day, which by implication and Biblical reasoning means there will be on Judgment Day those who are known to Him but stand just as lost alongside these "many" who are unknown to Him.
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