new version of OSAS?

[Taken]

The question “What would have happened if the Lord had not opened her heart?” isn’t speculation. For the passage clearly says why Lydia heed the things spoken by Paul, that is, because God opened her heart. Now, what God had opened is that which is closed, right?

On the Sabbath, Lydia was already worshipping God.
(Does that indicate to you Lydia was close hearted "to God?")
What the Scripture indicates to me is...
Paul did as he agreed with Jesus he would do.....Spread the good news of the Messiah of God having arrived and His Offering of Salvation and Quickening through The Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
And her Heart was Opened to receive Jesus' message and Accepted the Lords offering of Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And that which is closed, could not receive anything in, right? That isn’t at all speculation. And so, of Lydia’s heart was not opened by God, she would not heed the things spoken by Paul.

Two points there that you seem to have missed. That even a worshiper of God, without Christ, such as Lydia does not have a heart that is open to receive the truth. That unless God opens the heart of the fallen man, even those said to be worshipers of God such as Lydia and many Jews, if not all, he will not heed and receive the truth of the gospel that the apostles preached.

That being the situation, what happens to man’s free will?

If you recall...men Faithful to God, before Jesus arrived, became saved "AT THEIR PHYSICAL DEATH.
If you recall...the Apostles traveling informing the Jews of the arrival of their Christ Messiah occured, Offering them Salvation NOW, before their Physical Death.
If you recall...Paul in agreed Service to Jesus', was sent to Preach God and Jesus to the Gentiles, with the Same Offering, of Salvation NOW, before their Physical Death.
If you recall Some Jews Accepted and became Saved.
If you recall Jesus Himself revealed He Fulfilled the Law, but did not destroy the Law, which Kept in tact, a Jews Freewill to continue following the Law, Remain Faithful to God, to their Lifes end, and by their faithful endurance, they would be Saved.
The Lord Opening Lydias Heart, to Hearing Preaching of Jesus, she becoming Baptized with the Holy Spirit, lead to others in her home town of following suit.

You seem to imply Lydia's heart was closed, period. When in fact what Lydia's heart was closed to, was having not yet knowledge of Jesus the Christ Messiah.

 

[Taken]

I am not deflecting my friend

you claim a person the moment he is saved is perfect and sinless.

Flat out False. And not once can you quote me making such a claim.

 

[Corlove13]

Post# 4153


I believe this:

"All unrighteousness is sin" (1 John 5:17)

To do any unrighteousness is to commit sin.

I disagree with your assessment, but it’s all good. We can disagree without being enemies.

Tks...it's nice to be able to discuss passages without making enemies....

If that statement means what I believe you were trying to say...then who is born of God?
Am I missing something.

For the sake of friendly discussion lets look at these passages
1 John 5:17

All unrighteousness is sin, yet there is sin that does not lead to death..

Why does the rest of the passage mention sin not unto death? What is that "sin" that is not unto death?

Here is another passage that I would like you to consider that defines sin in Romans 14

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Combine that with Galatians 3:12...and let me know if you still disagree

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them

Recall my original disagreement was with how I thought you meant "comitt sin..."
For in the way you mean it-everyone comitts sin, because all unrighteousness is sin.
therefore who is born of God?

My thought was "comitt sin" there was the state one is in having either chose to believe in Christ or reject Him.

For one does not go on to practice sin if Jesus is their Lord?

Romans 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

And isn't that how the word is contrasted with a double edge sword
In one way it will make you change direction, and in another be used to defend you.

...Anyway help me understand your stance...
A little clearer .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Flat out False. And not once can you quote me making such a claim.

Born Again and DO NOT SIN, Verified with Scripture, already posted.

are you still going to deny it? If I am wrong tell me what you mean

 

[Tong2020]

Do you see...how "believing" what He did....as foundation makes you...the subject of your own righteousness?

.............................
This above...has wide range effects and here is one:
I remember...I would sometimes have to convince myself...by saying.....I do believe, I do believe, I do believe....over and over again.

Why because If I did not believe I was not saved...

Now here is where there would be a lot of reason for doubt; WHICH IS THERE REALLY ANY FOUNDATION BUILT ON DOUBT? CAN YOU GROW AND REMAIN...WITH A FOUNDATION THAT IS OF YOURSELF?

Then under Osas...when I would do something... I said I had to stop, because I was working for salvation. Boy was that confusing.

In faith, do good and sin no more. Go love God, the brethren, and neighbors. For I believe that this is what the Holy Spirit had instilled in the hearts of the true believer, those converted in the heart, those saved by grace.

In other words, having been saved, focus on that and no longer on getting saved or getting to remain saved. Time to live the life with God, which obviously is a reason why God saves the person. As Paul said of the Christian, they are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that they should walk in them. Not anymore to be saved nor to remain saved, but to live and walk in them, to glory and praise of God.

So, regarding the saved, rest in God, with the full assurance of His word regarding His salvation of you. It is all now a matter of experiencing life, having been given life, even eternal life, by God. And how that is like, needless to say, is bliss beyond man’s imagination and understanding and desires and standards. And what could be more natural for one who now have such life, experience together, in fellowship with the brethren, the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and share it with the rest of mankind?

Thanks, praise, and glory be to God, who is in heaven!

Tong
R3819

 

[Tong2020]

.
In Matthew 28:16-20 Jesus gave us three commandments in the Great Commission.

1. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations.” Spread the word. Evangelise.

2. Baptise, the second commandment in which the person being baptised acknowledges that God is their (1) FATHER, (2) their LORD AND SAVIOUR, (3) that HIS PRESENCE the Holy Spirit indwells, empowers, and teaches. (Immerse is good.)

Notice that Jesus says to baptise in the NAME (SINGULAR) of the One Almighty God, who is our heavenly (1) FATHER, in the (2) FLESH, and is with us now in (3) SPIRIT.

3. The third commandment is to TEACH. This goes beyond evangelism; it is not enough to simply make converts and let them fend for themselves. They must be taught to obey the commandments of Christ as found in the NT. This goes beyond OSAS teaching. They seem to think that being obedient to GOD is works. No, it is not works, it is OBEDIENCE and those who are not obedient are in for a terrible shock.

Jesus then added the promise that He would be present with His disciples until the end of the age. They would not be alone, nor would he leave them or forsake them.

When you said "immerse" I immediately thought of His all enveloping love, power and majesty, that will go with His servants until the end of the age. God bless, and keep studying and praying.
.

Just want to share this. I take commandments of God, given, not to have ourselves get to heaven, but to know of God’s good will, prevent the bad happening brought about by the opposite, and have us experience the life and blessedness that is in Jesus Christ. Heavenly and eternal rewards await those who obeys the commandments of God.

There are in the body of Christ, teachers, but not all are. Those with the gift of teaching, should teach as they were gifted by the Holy Spirit. Others were given other gifts, and they should make good use of their gifts. Each should put to use what gift they were given by the Holy Spirit for the benefit of the church and the accomplishing of the purposes of the Holy Spirit in giving them.

Can all teach?
Can all make disciples?
Can all work miracles?
Can all heal the sick?
Can all prophecy?

Now consider this.

Can all love?
Can all confess that Jesus Christ is Lord?

Tong
R3820

 

[Tong2020]

My spouse and I just got through talking about that.....belief....and the belief that saves

And if you do now know, and do have the faith that comes from God, you may now rest assured, that God had saved you and your spouse. So, have no fear nor worries about your salvation no longer and spend life with God, together with the family of God, and walk in the good works that God had prepared in advance for you to walk.

Tong
R3821

 

[Tong2020]

If you are slightly familiar with CONTRACTS, AGREEMENTS, CONSENTS "among men.." Maybe Knowing THAT ^ you might understand my point of view.

A "man" by his Authority creates a Document, creates WHAT he IS agreeable with, according to his Terms, his Language, his Way, his Order....
A "man" OFFERS "something" (a job, a loan, etc.) to "another man".
The "other" man decides "IF" he may be interested in the Offer (a job, loan, etc.)
The "other" man READS the Terms, Language, Way, Order, IN THE DOCUMENT.
The "other' man decides and CHOOSES, "IF" he is Willing to Be "in Agreement" with the Contract, in order to RECEIVE the "mans" OFFERING.
"IF" the other man AGREES....he Authorizes, Consents to, Agrees with the "Contract" and Agrees to abide to the terms of the "Contract".
(Years ago, men gave VERBAL offerings of Contracts, and Other men gave VERBAL agreements.
Men such as they are (LIARS), would default on their Agreements.
Men such as they are (hate being Cheated), established requirements for Authorized (SIGNED by their Seal or Name) WRITTEN on the Contracts...
AND,
the Agreeing Party ALSO Authorized by their own (Signed by their Seal or Name) on the Contract.

With each Agreeing, One is authorizing the other to Actually Hire him, Loan to him., with guarantee of being hired, receiving a loan.
Which then, each man having a copy of the Contract....Each Holds Proof of each man's Agreement by Word and Sign, of exactly what they Agreed to do, and could be held lawfully libel and accountable for failure to comply. *Consequences of NOT fulfilling the Contract.
A man may agree TO provide work, then not do it...
A man may agree TO work, then not do it...
FAILURE on both parties.


Now put that in perspective of a SPIRiTUAL CONTEXT.
By Gods Authority;
God Offers SALVATION & QUICKENING. +
God Expressly reveals His Terms.
God Expressly reveals His Way.
God Expressly reveals His Order.
* ANY man WHO chooses to HEAR, LEARN, EXAMINE, MULL OVER, All God is Offering, All the Terms, the Way, the Order....
* AND Elects/Chooses to "ACCEPT" Gods Offering....
{WHAT?}...sign a contract,? No.
* then HOW DOES ONE AGREE, AUTHORIZE, CONSENT for God to GIVE THEM WHAT He Offered?
* Already told you. A mans "WORD".
(Not a secret, men LIE.
(Not a secret, God is All knowing, and cannot be fooled.
(Men may be fooled, but God is never fooled).
* A true Heartful Agreement, Commitment, Consent, Election of a man...
IS Once and Forever.
(No quitting, No changing your mind, No divorcing and leaving God, No then choosing other gods....It's a Forever Commitment....
* and WHY when men ARE hearing and learning about Gods Offerings, Terms, Way, Order....man is expressly taught, TO BE diligent and ASSURED of their Election TO AGREE AND COMMIT.

We indeed have a different view of the salvation of God. For me it is really by grace, not by fulfilling some contract obligations.

God saved me. That is grace given me by God, according to His will, purpose, and pleasure. And that was even before I came to be in covenant with God, the new covenant, and so before fulfilling any thing of my obligations, of any, of said covenant. I could only thank Him for that. It falls within the grace He gave to Abraham and to his seed. Out of all the peoples of the world, He chose to reveal Himself to Abraham and have him hear His voice. Now Abraham belongs to a family who were a worshipper of other so called gods. But God chose to give him grace. By grace, God had made promise to Abraham and to his seed, that which God certainly will do and accomplish without fail. We see in scriptures how God goes about doing and accomplishing that. The children of Israel, those of the seed of Abraham through Isaac, he saved from slavery in Egypt, and that even while they are stiff-necked people. So, it is not because they were worthy that God saved them from slavery in Egypt, but because of His promise. To cut that short, it is about the promise of God and His accomplishing it. And within that scope and context, God made a covenant with the children of Israel, and gave them the law through Moses. Now we were told what the covenant was for and what the law was for. And then In due time, God replaced that covenant with a new one, through Jesus Christ.

In the old covenant, the covenant people are the natural Israel. In the new covenant, who are the covenant people? According to scriptures, they are still Israel, though not Israel according to the flesh. In other words, being not the physical or natural Israel, I’d call them the spiritual Israel. They are the children of promise.

Now the flesh corresponds to works and involves the physical things, while the spirit corresponds to faith and corresponds to spiritual things.

So it is of faith and not of works. Why of faith and not of works? Paul elsewhere said in relation to this matter, it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, the children of promise.

Tong
R3822

 

[Tong2020]

If one fallen man was chosen by God to save, it is God who will accomplish that, and not the man chosen.

So, are you saying now, God will MAKE a man (Against God), choose God?

All of Gods Offerings, are through Truth, Goodness, Righteousness....not trickery or force.

I thought you understood what it means that God does not force any man to will to believe or do anything. I hope you know what it means that God does not use force nor trickery.

God does not use force nor trickery. That is definitely not of His nature. Do you not know of any way that God can make a person whom He have chosen by grace to save, come to repentance towards Him and faith in Jesus Christ? If you don’t, just ask.

Tong
R3823

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And God accomplishes that consistent with what is good and consistent with His divine nature, and according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and glory. And God accomplishes that without forcing the man,

Agree.

God puts many good things and blessings in the path of a nonbeliever. But yet, all will not give Him the credit, the glory, the recognition.
They are they who are called but not chosen of God....Because THEY rejected choosing Him.
ie... many are called few are chosen

You say you agree. So I would expect from you, from this point on, to not think that I am implying that God forces a man to choose and believe Him.

Have you given thought about the other peoples besides the children of Israel, beginning at the time of Moses when God begun to make them a people, a nation? Israel called them the uncircumcised people, also strangers, also gentiles, non believers. What do you understand in the fact that God had chosen the children of Israel out of all the peoples of the earth then? What becomes of those people, at least those in that generation and until the end time the time of Jesus Christ on earth? Were they called? Were they chosen of God? What can you say about them? What do you think, was there a hope of salvation for those people?

Tong
R3824

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Why or how does a fallen man gets to choose to believe in God?

Freewill.

I guess then that in your case, that was how it was that you got to choose to believe in God. Your free will got you to choose to believe in God.

In my case, it is God’s work in and on me, that I got to choose to believe in God and Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ. And I was not forced to nor did God chose for me. He had done something with my heart and mind. Had He not done so, I would not have freely willed to choose and believe Him.

Tong
R3825

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The answer is not found in the man, but in God. He gets to choose to believe in God because God had done something supernatural and spiritual in him.

Disagree.
Gods Spirit "IN" a man is a GIFT given to a man WHO HAS CONSENTED to Be Converted.
And can NEVER Leave God.

You are talking about "Gods Spirit "WITH" a man who IS Hearing the Word of God, receiving Faith and Blessing for HEARING.
Which is the SAME man who can STOP hearing, receiving faith at ANY TIME.

It is not the already converted that gets to have the choice to believe God or not, but the not yet converted. Now the not yet converted man does not have the Holy Spirit in him. He is carnal, the natural fallen man. And as I have pointed out, such a man can not know the things of the Spirit of God, for such are spiritually discerned. So, only when God does something supernatural and spiritual in and on him, that he can know them. It is God who works even in the man that he freely will to believe. That is God at work in converting the man. And Him whom God had converted by His working, would the man work against that to make himself unconverted? I don’t see that happening. It’s either the man was converted or was not.

Tong
R3825

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You said that when you submitted to the Lord God, you gave Him authority to KEEP His Promises to you. So you gave God authority?

As I pointed out, no man gives God authority. He has all authority. He is God from whom all authority comes.

You are confused...
He has all authority?
He is God from whom all authority comes?
.....Authority comes....TO WHOM?

Explain ... "Authority comes"...

<<<You are confused...>>>

Am I confused or is it you? Time will tell.

<<<He has all authority?>>>

Yes, definitely. He is God. Does God need any authority from what He created, from fallen man, from those he saves, or from you or from me? No sir. No one gets to give God any authority of any sort.

<<<He is God from whom all authority comes?
.....Authority comes....TO WHOM?

Explain ... "Authority comes"...>>>

Authority comes from God, meaning, God is the source and giver of authority, not the recipient nor the One needing to be given of.

Authority comes from God and to whom God gives it is to whom the authority comes to. For example, the apostles were given by God through Jesus Christ, the authority to make disciples of all nations. God is the giver and the apostles are the recipients. And that does not mean that God no longer have such authority. For God could, without need of permission nor need to be given authority by the apostles, make disciples of all nations as well through other chosen men or women, other than the apostles.

Your submitting to God does not give God any kind of authority that hmHe already does not have. Besides, what do you have that you have not received that God have not and you can give to God? If God will take one’s life today, be that of a believer or not, does He not have authority to do so, unless one gives him such or permits Him? Does God not have the authority to give mercy to whom He wills to give it, and needs be given authority first by the man and permits Him to do so before God could give him
His mercy? Sorry, but I don’t read that at all in scriptures.

Tong
R3827

 

[Taken]

We indeed have a different view of the salvation of God. For me it is really by grace, not by fulfilling some contract obligations.

I do not discount Gods Grace.
Gods Grace IS Gods "reasoning" of WHY He "offers", a corrupt man anything.
You could ask yourself, WHY DOES God (by His Grace) Make ANY OFFERS to CORRUPT men Against Him.
WHY? What BENEFIT is that to God?
* Do YOU, make deals, offerings to (cheats, liars, thieves?)
* That ^ "appears", as if, a man might tend to reassess that notion, for fear of falling prey to a scheme of a known (cheat, liar, thief).
(That ^ is because man IS NOT "ALL" knowing. And when a man KNOWS the reputation of a man IS, cheating, lying, thieving, making a deal, an offering, is "by a natural man", naturally a "cautionary" signal.

So what is Gods "edge" (so to speak) in Offering "anything" to Corrupt men?
Well...He is All knowing.
He .... establishes the "TERMS" of WHO can "receive" His Offering.
He ... establishes HOW a man CAN "COMPLY" with His TERMS.
His ... Requirement for HOW a man "CAN" COMPLY...IS EXPRESSLY...revealed...IS BY and THROUGH ... Gods Works/Gods Power.

You are implying, THE INDIVIDUAL MAN...
Can Learn the WAY...BUT

not by fulfilling some contract obligations

I used "contract" as an example OF a mans agreement TO and fulfillment OF an obligation to KEEP YOUR WORD.

You begin with, Gods Grace, then jumped immediately to God SAVED YOU.

Did you "AGREE" by your Word, for God to Save YOU....or did God SAVE you simply because God OFFERED you Salvation?

The Point being...WHAT God Offers, WHY God Offers, TO WHOM God Offers....IS ONE THING.
UNTIL a man "ACCEPTS BY AGREEMENT" of what God Offers...
....there is NO Agreement, BY the man, to ACCEPT, Receive, Take, Have anything God is OFFERING.
....Nor is there ANY Agreement, BY God to GIVE His Offering TO a man, WHO HAS NOT ACCEPTED, His Offering.

If I offer you a piece of cake...it is yours to take....If you do not AGREE to TAKE IT...
You by default, DO NOT HAVE what I offered expressly for YOU TO HAVE.
By default, YOU LOSE, what was expressly FOR YOU, because you did not AGREE to TAKE IT.

So ... What DOES GOD "get" ..FOR His Offering of Salvation....( to Corrupt men ) when such Corrupt men... AGREES to RECEIVE Gods Offering (according to God Order, Way/ terms) ?

Do you know?

 

[Taken]

I thought you understood what it means that God does not force any man to will to believe or do anything. I hope you know what it means that God does not use force nor trickery.

God does not use force nor trickery. That is definitely not of His nature. Do you not know of any way that God can make a person whom He have chosen by grace to save, come to repentance towards Him and faith in Jesus Christ? If you don’t, just ask.

Tong
R3823

I am aware of what force means.

I am not in agreement with your circular argument.
You are purporting, God offers, you receive.
However, you do not receive Gods offering;
by His force or by your agreement....

If you do not receive Gods Offering,
By His Force or By your Agreement...
Then by WHAT means do you receive His Offering?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Salvation wasn’t offered by God.

Uh .... astounded at your comment!
Salvation is a gift of God Offered to men.

Well,….

Did God offer Abraham salvation or did God give him promise of salvation?

Did God offer Noah salvation or did God give him grace and saved him and his family?

Did God offer His begotten Son to be the Savior and Messiah, or did God give Him to be the Savior, the Messiah?

If you say that salvation is some offer of God to you, perhaps you can show me scriptures that says it is.

Tong
R3828

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Man was not offered free will.

Man was created and MADE with free will.

Yes, created and made with free will, not offered with free will.

Tong
R3829

 

[Taken]

You say you agree. So I would expect from you, from this point on, to not think that I am implying that God forces a man to choose and believe Him.

Nope.
I have expressly revealed, MY BELIEF is God Offers;
and men have FREEWILL to reject Gods Offering and thus NOT RECEIVE Gods Offering.
and
men have FREEWILL to AGREE to Gods terms and thus RECEIVE Gods Offering.

You have repeatedly rejected, argued against, a man freely ... Agreeing to Gods terms, (way)....Before Receiving Gods Offering.

But yet, you ALSO say, God does not, FORCE His Offering on anyone.

Then you say, YOU HAVE Receive An offering from God OF the Gift of SALVATION...

But you have YET to reveal....HOW YOU RECEIVED Gods Offering of Salvation.... "WITHOUT YOUR AGREEMENT" TO Receive that Gift.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The commandment of God to Adam in Gen.2:16-17 indicates that he was created having a will of his own.

Man was Created, with flesh, bones, tissue, organs, blood, mind, ears, eyes, nose, mouth,.... now stop a minute....
THINK...
How can that THING ^ neither alive nor dead, have freewill to Choose anything?

Immediately after God Created man, God MADE the man Alive, with Gods Breath.
Oh.....okay, NOW the mans BLOOD begins flowing (which IS a natural mans Life...stop the Blood flow and that man will cease living)
The eyes See, The nose Smells, The ears Hear, the Flesh feels, The heart beats, The organs function, Air is breathed....
Man was not created with freewill.
Man was MADE to have freewill, when his mind was MADE alive.
Get it?
Created is one thing.
Made is another thing.

It seems to me that for you man is that which is only the thing you say “was Created, with flesh, bones, tissue, organs, blood, mind, ears, eyes, nose, mouth,....”, and seems to be not including the spirit.

Tong
R3830

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Are you trying to say that before God gave commandment to Adam in Gen.2:16-17, that Adam had no will of his own? And if you say that God offered Adam free will, does Adam have a choice to accept or not?

I didn't say that.
Freewill was not an offering, it was Gods handiworks of MAKING.

Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Well, perhaps I did not get this statement of yours right then, “Before my life time, God Offered TO THE WHOLE WORLD, Freewill, To Choose God, or NOT.”

But that’s good, we agree that free will was not offered by God to Adam.

Tong
R3831