John 3 - Born of Water and Spirit

[Ronald Nolette]

You'd think you'd be able to share their citations.

and if I write a series of works from footnotes, you will accpet that though I cannot paste the works themselves?

 

[GracePeace]

I gave y0ou the best I could find, if it is not enough for you, feel free to reject it.

So you ask me to go to your site but youre unwilling to go there and copy paste material?

 

[GracePeace]

and if I write a series of works from footnotes, you will accpet that though I cannot paste the works themselves?

I will be able to check their citations.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No you didn't. You said "such and such a book" but that doesn't prove ancient Israelites spoke or thought that way. Show me ancient Jewish citations.

As soon as you cite ancinet citations that being born of water means being born of the word of God. outside of the bible of course as you wish me to do.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So you ask me to go to your site but youre unwilling to go there and copy paste material?

I gave you material from two web sites, but I will not copy pages from books and post them that are copyrighted.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I will be able to check their citations.

YOu have access to ancient Jewish libraries?????

 

[GracePeace]

and if I write a series of works from footnotes, you will accpet that though I cannot paste the works themselves?

If it were me I'd just write "These are citations for Jews referring to 'natural birth' as 'born of water' in Jesus's day".

 

[GracePeace]

YOu have access to ancient Jewish libraries?????

That material is all over the web.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Unlike you, some of us aren't subject to human authority with regard to belief and practice. For this reason, what Calvin or Luthor said about a particular subject is informative, but not binding. For this reason, your challenge is meaningless.

This is a silly argument.

EVERY Protestant group I know if has leaders that teach the flock - and they teach THEIR interpretation of Scripture.
So, YOU are, in effect, BOUND to another man's rules.

Let's face it - ALL of Protestantism is based on the rules of men.
The two main pillars of Protestantism - Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura - are inventions of men - NOT of God.

 

[GracePeace]

If you are interested in freedom from sin and how do we receive the Holy Spirit? read below.
After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)


15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it’s only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or any sinful desires. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires (Romans 6:6-7 and Galatians 5:24), Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it’s God’s will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit.

Then it’s by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don’t have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually and for more information about this sermon, go to spreadthegospel59.wordpress.com then go to
The short version of “To be free from sin (sin deceives and hurts everyone) and how do we receive the Holy Spirit?”

Why does God hate sin? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that “you were bought with a price” (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23)? | GotQuestions.org
Sin Will Never Make You Happy
(What does the Bible say about hypocrisy? | GotQuestions.org)
Gives thanks to God, that you are free from sin (sin deceives=never satisfied no matter how many times you do it,
gives pain, makes you guilty, go from bad to worse)
if you are one of God’s elect, to fight off self-pity is to give thanks to God for everything. What does the Bible say about self-pity? | GotQuestions.org
Is eternal security a “license” to sin? | GotQuestions.org

The reason why am hated for no reason since I were physically born and never fit in is because am one of God’s elects. (John 15:18-19)


Just so you know Jesus had to carry all of God’s elects sins and endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hellfire spiritually, which is extreme love and mercy.
Go to the bottom website, for better explanation.
How Did Jesus Suffer Eternal Punishment in Only 3 Hours?

water baptism is not needed to be saved="symbolic representation of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ."
What is the symbolism of water baptism? | GotQuestions.org
But you must receive the Holy Spirit to be saved.

It is rude to intrude on others' discussions and dump your off topic material. Start your own discussion on those matters.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So you ask me to go to your site but youre unwilling to go there and copy paste material?

Onee interesting study from blue letter bible is that the preposition of (ek) in being born of water is a relation to where one originates or where they are from.' "Ek" is translated several ways in English : The KJV translates Strong's G1537 in the following manner: of (366x), from (181x), out of (162x), by (55x), on (34x), with (25x), miscellaneous (98x)

Which once again confirms Jesus is contrasting natural from spiritual birth as He does in verse 6:

Jhn 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


even again is a poor translation of anothen-

The KJV translates Strong's G509 in the following manner: from above (5x), top (3x), again (2x), from the first (1x), from the beginning (1x), not translated (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. from above, from a higher place
   
   1. of things which come from heaven or God
      
2. from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
   
   
3. anew, over again
   

General rule of greek is if the first english translation makes perfect sense- don't go to the secondary or tertiary or further usages.

So once again jesus is contrasting that natural/flesh/water irth is not adequate but one must also be born from above- which the Epistles show what the new birth is- being born from above!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If it were me I'd just write "These are citations for Jews referring to 'natural birth' as 'born of water' in Jesus's day".

Well they weren't you. If you wish you can write Fruchtenbaqum at ariel.org and complain.

 

[GracePeace]

As soon as you cite ancinet citations that being born of water means being born of the word of God. outside of the bible of course as you wish me to do.

1. Where "in the Bible" did "born of water" mean "natural birth"?
2. I'm going by the material provided me by the author.
You find fault with that?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That material is all over the web.

Well when I get time, I will pull these textbooks out and give you all relevant footnotes I find.

 

[GracePeace]

Onee interesting study from blue letter bible is that the preposition of (ek) in being born of water is a relation to where one originates or where they are from.' "Ek" is translated several ways in English : The KJV translates Strong's G1537 in the following manner: of (366x), from (181x), out of (162x), by (55x), on (34x), with (25x), miscellaneous (98x)

Which once again confirms Jesus is contrasting natural from spiritual birth as He does in verse 6:

Jhn 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


even again is a poor translation of anothen-

The KJV translates Strong's G509 in the following manner: from above (5x), top (3x), again (2x), from the first (1x), from the beginning (1x), not translated (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. from above, from a higher place
   1. of things which come from heaven or God
2. from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
   
   
3. anew, over again

General rule of greek is if the first english translation makes perfect sense- don't go to the secondary or tertiary or further usages.

So once again jesus is contrasting that natural/flesh/water irth is not adequate but one must also be born from above- which the Epistles show what the new birth is- being born from above!

I stand by "living water... this He spake concerning the Spirit" as having been the author's intended referent. Even it is stated "drink of one Spirit".
Not a problem for me if you want to reject what seems plain to me--the readers can decide.
I'll wait for you to pull out the proof for "natural birth" being referred to as "born of water".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1. Where "in the Bible" did "born of water" mean "natural birth"?
2. I'm going by the material provided me by the author.
You find fault with that?

Other than this passage there is no other place. I do not think other than begat there is another term used for childbirth.

And I am going by the material given me by authors.

So that is settled then.

But let me ask you how you understand the whole context Jesus spoke this in in light of things like Paul said like "those in the flesh cannot please God.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Verse 5 jesus speaks of 2 births, verse six jesus speaks of 2 births.

 

[GracePeace]

Other than this passage there is no other place. I do not think other than begat there is another term used for childbirth.

And I am going by the material given me by authors.

So that is settled then.

But let me ask you how you understand the whole context Jesus spoke this in in light of things like Paul said like "those in the flesh cannot please God.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Verse 5 jesus speaks of 2 births, verse six jesus speaks of 2 births.

No, you're not going by the material provided by the author. You're importing definitions. I'm going by his material "water spake of the Spirit".

 

[GracePeace]

Well when I get time, I will pull these textbooks out and give you all relevant footnotes I find.

All right.

 

[GracePeace]

Well they weren't you. If you wish you can write Fruchtenbaqum at ariel.org and complain.

No, I meant IF I WERE YOU I would just write something like a paraphrase so as not to run afoul of copyright.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In one passage, Christ disabuses Nicodemus of his misunderstanding ("Can a man reenter his mother's womb and be 'born again'?" "No, Nicodemus, flesh births flesh but what I'm talking about is being born spiritually."), in the other He reiterates and clarifies what is necessary. Those are two different purposes in speaking and the content needn't parallel one another.

well here are sone:

From
Yeshua
Life of the Messiah from a Messianic Jewish Perspective:
Volume 2 pp 45-58

Midrash Rabbah physical birth is equated to natural birth per Prov. 5:15-23 The midrash equated water with semen and birth.

For a Jew to be born naturally (born of the flesh) was enough to inherit th ekingdom of God. Midrash Rabbah Genesis 58:8

As previously written there were many "baptisms (immersions) in Pharasaic Judaism so baptsim is not in view, nor th eword of God for Nicodemus was a "teacher of Israel" and well versed in the word and a pious man (tradition has him getting saved).

I can give you many many more references for teh six way someone could be born again in Pharasaic Judaism.