Yes. It's the scripture that also tells us salvation is a free irrevocable gift.
Already posted . Seek and ye shall find. :)
OSAS Question
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Already posted . Seek and ye shall find. :)
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
There is no verse that says faith is an irrevocable gift.
"The gifts and callings of God are without repentence."
I have heard people apply differring contexts to that verse - some apply it to the Jewish people, some to individual salvation - some to gifts of the spirit.
It is surely used as a weapon of more than one doctrine.
The Bible is full of WARNINGS about losing salvation. Some have been posted in this thread.
Why some want to make a doctrine out of OSAS - despite the many warnings - just blows my mind.
All we have is TODAY - RIGHT NOW.
You wanna sing BLESSED ASSURANCE? Ask yourself do you still confess Jesus is Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead? If so, let's sing BLESSED ASSURANCE, JESUS IS MINE without trying to pull some OSAS doctrine into it.
I believe and confess, so
Fire Place no go
On any day - at any time
Not just "I went down an aisle once"
I have heard people apply differring contexts to that verse - some apply it to the Jewish people, some to individual salvation - some to gifts of the spirit.
It is surely used as a weapon of more than one doctrine.
The Bible is full of WARNINGS about losing salvation. Some have been posted in this thread.
Why some want to make a doctrine out of OSAS - despite the many warnings - just blows my mind.
All we have is TODAY - RIGHT NOW.
You wanna sing BLESSED ASSURANCE? Ask yourself do you still confess Jesus is Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead? If so, let's sing BLESSED ASSURANCE, JESUS IS MINE without trying to pull some OSAS doctrine into it.
I believe and confess, so
Fire Place no go
On any day - at any time
Not just "I went down an aisle once"
TheslightestID
Active Member
Nope, my argunent is with you who insist that what John said about the Antichrist he was referring to, goes fore everyone.
But as long as it's clear to onlookers that you are twisting scripture, all is well here. I dont expect you to stop peddling your false gospel or twisted scripture, my only purpose is to let others know you are wrong.
People needlessly demonize the concept of SYNERGY - our part in a response to God - many people do not ascribe to OSAS - but neither do they go around saying "Arent I great? Aren't I TERRIFIC? I chose to say YES to Christ's gift - aren't I cool?"
He stands at the door and knocks. He doesn't bust it down against our wills.
He could. He's powerful enough - He's sovereign enough. But He is not a Puppet Master god as some theology would make Him; He deals with People that He made with a Free Will, and even those who deny that there is such a thing as Free Will do so out of their own Free Will.
He stands at the door and knocks. He doesn't bust it down against our wills.
He could. He's powerful enough - He's sovereign enough. But He is not a Puppet Master god as some theology would make Him; He deals with People that He made with a Free Will, and even those who deny that there is such a thing as Free Will do so out of their own Free Will.
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How evasive! Paul was talking to the saints, CHRISTIANS, saying YOU also will be cut off.
Rom 11:18
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Another warning - to THEE.
One cannot say "Romans chapter 9 deals with individuals - Romans 11 deals with Israel as a nation" - both Israel and individuals are being discussed all through Romans.
I am a wild olive branch. I have a warning in 11:21.
Warnings all over the place against losing my salvation.
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Another warning - to THEE.
One cannot say "Romans chapter 9 deals with individuals - Romans 11 deals with Israel as a nation" - both Israel and individuals are being discussed all through Romans.
I am a wild olive branch. I have a warning in 11:21.
Warnings all over the place against losing my salvation.
1Co 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Phl 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phl 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phl 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phl 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phl 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
You accused me of "hate". But you won't say who I hate? I don't hate ANYONE. And you accused me of being a liar more than once?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.
Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord c at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. We have genuine believers and make believers mixed in with the group.
Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ." So if confirms they have become partakers of Christ.
The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers of Christ and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as those who have become partakers of Christ will have been those who held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
More later. It's bedtime for me. ;)
And of course they will say "Those pages were never there to begin with"; like they play their "never were saved to begin with" card...
sigh...
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Can you show me the specific words, "lose salvation" in the Bible? The Israelites were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Israelites lost the goodness and blessings of God, but this doesn't speak of losing salvation.
Romans 11:24 - For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written..
Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious.
