What is the mystery that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Is it the rapture (catching up to Christ) as pretrib teaches or something else?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Edit: Adding a note at the beginning of this post for clarification, since it seems that a few people are not understanding the point I'm making in this thread. The point of this thread is not to try to say that 1st Corinthians 15:51-52 does not happen at generally the same time as the rapture (being gathered and caught up to Christ), as if 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 are completely different events that happen at entirely different times. That is not what I believe. I believe those passages describe things that will happen at generally the same time (with maybe only a moment of time between the dead in Christ being resurrected, then all being changed, and then all being caught up) during the same one event, the second coming of Christ. Instead, the point of the thread is to determine what part of the things that will occur on that day was a mystery as of the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The word "rapture" simply means to be snatched or caught up. In this case it refers to believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). Is that the mystery that Paul is referencing here as many pre-trib adherents believe? Is that what he said was a mystery, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air? No. He specifically said that the mystery was that everyone's bodies will be changed and made incorruptible and immortal at the last trumpet. That's it. Nothing about the rapture, which specifically refers to our being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as being a mystery. So, why do people try to say that the rapture was a mystery before Paul wrote 1st Corinthians when Paul himself didn't say that was a mystery?

Was the rapture a mystery before Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians? No, it wasn't. He had already written about the rapture in 1st Thessalonians which was written somewhere between 49-51 AD, which means he wrote that before 1st Corinthians was written (somewhere between 53-55 AD). So, the rapture itself (being caught up to meet the Lord in the air) was not a mystery when 1st Corinthians 15:51-54 was written. Paul explicitly said what the mystery was, which was that we (our bodies) will all be changed at the last trumpet. That's it.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 won't happen at the same time. That is not my point. They will happen at the same time. They both are speaking of things that will happen on the day of Christ's second coming. And, apparently, if how quickly our bodies will be changed (in a moment) is any indication, it will all happen quickly (the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the change of our bodies and the catching up to meet the Lord in the air).

 

[Douggg]

Was the rapture a mystery before Paul wrote his first letter to the Corinthians? No, it wasn't. He had already written about the rapture in 1st Thessalonians which was written somewhere between 49-51 AD, which means he wrote that before 1st Corinthians was written (somewhere between 53-55 AD).

Paul was in a different city (Corinth), talking to a different group of Christian there, as he has previous spoken to the Thessalonians. It was a mystery to both groups. It is about the redemption of our bodies in the rapture/resurrection event.... to happen before the Day of the Lord begins when God's wrath is poured out. 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul was in a different city (Corinth), talking to a different group of Christian there, as he has previous spoken to the Thessalonians. It was a mystery to both groups.

No. Wrong. He had already taught about believers being caught up and gathered to the Lord, so there was no mystery about that once he wrote 1st Corinthians.

It is about the redemption of our bodies in the rapture/resurrection event.... to happen before the Day of the Lord begins when God's wrath is poured out. 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The mystery, specifically, is that we will all be changed to have immortal bodies at the last trumpet. That is all Paul said about the mystery. The idea that he was saying that us being gathered and caught up to meet Jesus was not mentioned as being part of the mystery. You are adding to the Word of God to fit your doctrine, which is shameful.

 

[Keraz]

The mystery, specifically, is that we will all be changed to have immortal bodies at the last trumpet

Right, But when is the Last Trumpet?
Obviously, plainly and logically, it must be at the final point of Gods Plan for mankind. Which is the GWT Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.
Then that Trumpet call will bring up ALL the dead since Adam; for Judgment. The still living will als0 stand before God, on that Day and all those; dead or alive whose names are found in the Book of Life, will instantly be made immortal. Those whose names are not in the Book of Life will be annihilated and their names remembered no more.

This is proved by Revelation 21:4, which tells us that only after the Millennium, is Death no more.
It is simply unbiblical nonsense to think people will, or could be made immortal before the final wash up of Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind.

 

[jeffweeder]

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Yes.
Whether we are alive or dead when Jesus comes a second time, we will all be changed at that moment. That is, we put on our glorified body and inherit the kingdom he prepared for us.

That is not all that happens on that day, as the Lord is actually coming in vengeance to eternally separate the wicked as taught here...,

2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


This is clearly the Lords own teaching shown here....,

Matt 25

The Judgment​

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);

 

[grafted branch]

Right, But when is the Last Trumpet?
Obviously, plainly and logically, it must be at the final point of Gods Plan for mankind. Which is the GWT Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.
Then that Trumpet call will bring up ALL the dead since Adam; for Judgment. The still living will als0 stand before God, on that Day and all those; dead or alive whose names are found in the Book of Life, will instantly be made immortal. Those whose names are not in the Book of Life will be annihilated and their names remembered no more.

This is proved by Revelation 21:4, which tells us that only after the Millennium, is Death no more.
It is simply unbiblical nonsense to think people will, or could be made immortal before the final wash up of Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

In Matthew 13:24-30 is the parable tares.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are gathered first at the harvest and the dead in Christ rise first at the trump of God. Do you see the harvest and the trump of God as the same event? If so how do you explain the tares being gathered first?

 

[Keraz]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

We are told, quite specifically, that the ONLY dead who will be raised back to mortal life when Jesus Returns, will be those martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 years of world Satanic control. Revelation 20:4-5 is indisputable.

If so how do you explain the tares being gathered first?

Matthew 13:24-30 refers to the forthcoming Sixth Seal event; when the ungodly peoples in the holy Land will be destroyed. Zephaniah 1:18, Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 21:1-7, +
Then the 'wheat', the faithful Chirstian peoples, will be gathered into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26....in the very place....

 

[The Light]

Just to be clear, I am not saying that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 won't happen at the same time. That is not my point. They will happen at the same time. They both are speaking of things that will happen on the day of Christ's second coming. And, apparently, if how quickly our bodies will be changed (in a moment) is any indication, it will all happen quickly (the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the change of our bodies and the catching up to meet the Lord in the air).

1 Thes 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 are NOT the same event.

1 Thes 4 happens at the trump of God or voice of God. 1 Cor 15 happens at the last trump which is blown in the Feast of Trumpets, the second harvest feast.

1 Thes 4 the Lord Himself comes. 1 Cor 15 He sends His angels.

1 Thes 4 the dead in Christ rise first and the alive remain. 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, But when is the Last Trumpet?

Translation: "Right, but I want to find something to disagree with you about instead of just letting us agree on something and leave it at that."

Sorry, but I'm not going to repeat an argument I've had with you a few times already in this thread. Start a new thread if you want to talk about the other things you mentioned in your post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes.
Whether we are alive or dead when Jesus comes a second time, we will all be changed at that moment. That is, we put on our glorified body and inherit the kingdom he prepared for us.

That is not all that happens on that day, as the Lord is actually coming in vengeance to eternally separate the wicked as taught here...,

2Thess 1
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].


This is clearly the Lords own teaching shown here....,

Matt 25

The Judgment​

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);

Agree completely, but in this thread I just wanted to talk about what the mystery is that Paul referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. Pretribs want to make the rapture (catching up to Christ) the mystery so that they can claim it was never referenced in any way before, even though Jesus alluded to the gathering of believers to Himself in Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27). And, as I pointed out, Paul had already taught about the rapture in 1st Thessalonians before he wrote 1st Corinthians. So, the rapture itself (our being caught up to meet the Lord) was not a mystery as of the time that Paul wrote 1st Corinthians 15:51-52.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thes 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 are NOT the same event.

This can't be taken seriously. Both are said to occur when the dead in Christ are resurrected.

1st Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1st Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

As usual, you are taking something simple and making it convoluted.

1 Thes 4 happens at the trump of God or voice of God. 1 Cor 15 happens at the last trump which is blown in the Feast of Trumpets, the second harvest feast.

Utter nonsense that is not taught in scripture anywhere.

1 Thes 4 the Lord Himself comes. 1 Cor 15 He sends His angels.

Where does 1 Thess 4:14-17 say that His angels aren't with Him when He descends from heaven? You are making what is called an argument from silence. Not every passage about the second coming contains the same details. If it was required for two passages to contain the same details in order to be about the same event then there would be very few passages of scripture that we could directly relate to each other.

1 Thes 4 the dead in Christ rise first and the alive remain. 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

What are you talking about? What do you think, that those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet Christ in the air with their mortal bodies?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

In Matthew 13:24-30 is the parable tares.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are gathered first at the harvest and the dead in Christ rise first at the trump of God. Do you see the harvest and the trump of God as the same event? If so how do you explain the tares being gathered first?

This is very simple. Matthew 13:30 is about the same thing as Matthew 25:31-46. It's talking about the gathering of all people for judgment before the throne of Christ. Whereas 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is talking about believers being gathered to Him "in the air" after He descends from heaven. The passages have different contexts. If you look at Revelation 14:14-20 then you can see that it's believers gathered from the earth first and then unbelievers are physically destroyed. Right after that is when Matthew 13:30 (Matthew 25:31-46) takes place after all the dead have been resurrected (John 5:28-29).

 

[The Light]

This can't be taken seriously. Both are said to occur when the dead in Christ are resurrected.

Great. There are two harvests.

1st Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1st Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

As usual, you are taking something simple and making it convoluted.

You are taking two comings of the Lord and merging then into one.

Utter nonsense that is not taught in scripture anywhere.


Where does 1 Thess 4:14-17 say that His angels aren't with Him when He descends from heaven? You are making what is called an argument from silence. Not every passage about the second coming contains the same details. If it was required for two passages to contain the same details in order to be about the same event then there would be very few passages of scripture that we could directly relate to each other.

Do you not understand the that the Lord Himself will come for His bride?

Then He comes again for the gathering from heaven and earth

 

[The Light]

What are you talking about? What do you think, that those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet Christ in the air with their mortal bodies?

Did I say that. The Lord will come for the dead in Christ. This is the spring barley harvest.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

The Lord will return for the alive that remain. This is the summer wheat harvest.

Song of Solomon 2
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Great. There are two harvests.

No, there are not. That is not what I said and you know it. I was saying that both passages are about what will happen at Christ's one and only future second coming. He will descend from heaven once in the future, not 5 times as you ridiculously believe.

You are taking two comings of the Lord and merging then into one.

No, I'm not. Is this all you have? You just make statements and think that's enough. Prove it. So far you have fallen far short of doing that.

Do you not understand the that the Lord Himself will come for His bride?

And His angels will be with Him. Again, your silly approach to scripture that says two passages can't be related if one passage contains details that the other doesn't is not a valid approach to interpreting scripture.

Then He comes again for the gathering from heaven and earth

He will come once. A second time. That's it.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And the manner that He comes a second time will be bodily and visibly.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This third, fourth, fifth, etc. comings of Christ nonsense can't be taken seriously at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did I say that. The Lord will come for the dead in Christ.

You have no idea how you come across. Your doctrine is so convoluted, it's just unbelievable.

Do the following not both refer to the Lord coming for the dead in Christ?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is the spring barley harvest.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

The Lord will return for the alive that remain. This is the summer wheat harvest.

Song of Solomon 2
11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

Total nonsense. It's no wonder that you have to resort to butchering the OT and taking it out of context in order to keep your doctrine afloat since you can't support your doctrine with what is taught in the NT.

 

[jeffweeder]

1 Thes 4:14-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 are NOT the same event.

So, which coming is the Apostle Paul a part of?

IF you are right, why did Paul only inform the Thessalonians and Corinthians in part?


Paul informed the Thessalonian's that what he was teaching them was the Lords own word...,

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

So where did Jesus teach this other coming you propose?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, which coming is the Apostle Paul a part of?

IF you are right, why did Paul only inform the Thessalonians and Corinthians in part?


Paul informed the Thessalonian's that what he was teaching them was the Lords own word...,

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16 For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18 Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words [concerning our reunion with believers who have died].

So where did Jesus teach this other coming you propose?

Good point, Jeff! Not only did Paul include himself as being part of what is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17, but he also included himself in what is described here:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Did Paul teach that he will somehow be part of two different events relating to the resurrection of the dead in Christ? No. Clearly, the resurrection of the dead in Christ at Christ's coming in 1 Thess 4:14-17 is the same resurrection of the dead in Christ he references in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and Paul knew he would be part of that one event whether he was one of those who would still be alive and remain until then or if he was one of the dead in Christ at that point.

 

[jeffweeder]

Good point, Jeff! Not only did Paul include himself as being part of what is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17, but he also included himself in what is described here:

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Did Paul teach that he will somehow be part of two different events relating to the resurrection of the dead in Christ? No. Clearly, the resurrection of the dead in Christ at Christ's coming in 1 Thess 4:14-17 is the same resurrection of the dead in Christ he references in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and Paul knew he would be part of that one event whether he was one of those who would still be alive and remain until then or if he was one of the dead in Christ at that point.

Absolutely. Its further clarified here...,

2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day , and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

2Tim 4
7 I have fought the good and worthy and noble fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith [firmly guarding the gospel against error]. 8 In the future there is reserved for me the [victor’s] crown of righteousness [for being right with God and doing right], which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that [great] day—and not to me only, but also to all those who have loved and longed for and welcomed His appearing.

 

[The Light]

You have no idea how you come across. Your doctrine is so convoluted, it's just unbelievable.

Do the following not both refer to the Lord coming for the dead in Christ?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the current Church being raptured. The first fold. The sheep that hear His voice now.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse is for those that are raptured at the 6th seal. The second fold. Those that will hear His voice after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Total nonsense. It's no wonder that you have to resort to butchering the OT and taking it out of context in order to keep your doctrine afloat since you can't support your doctrine with what is taught in the NT.

It's all nonsense to you because you don't understand that the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. This is the second coming. Then the 1 year wrath of God, Day of the Lord begins.