WE ARE DEAD TO THE LAW

[Curtis]

The law hasn’t passed away, it’s still in effect - for the unconverted - not for born again Christians with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Christians are dead to the law, and now are married to Jesus instead of the law, and have been DELIVERED FROM the law:


Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law-by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, (Jesus) that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

(read 2 Corinthians 3 for more about the letter (which kills) in the old covenant vs the spirit that brings life, in the new).

The law doesn’t apply to Christians, just to the unconverted, because the law is NOT MEANT for a RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the UNGODLY and for MURDERERS:


1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Christians are the righteousness of God in Christ, thus the law is null and void for us, who are now righteous by faith, not by works of the law of Moses.


Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


And this agrees:


Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,being witnessed bythe law and the prophets;


Thus it hasn’t passed away, it just doesn’t apply to those born again, since it’s only meant for the UNCONVERTED, for ungodly and murderers, etc. 1 Tim 1:9 above.


And BEFORE faith came, we were imprisoned by the law, locked up by it until the coming of Christ, and now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian:


Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.


Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.


Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Put the 3 most relevant verses together in the above passage:

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is what many believers just don’t get - Christians don’t need an external law with the death penalty for breaking, if we are led by the indwelling spirit, and bear the fruit of the spirit, listed above - we have died to the law.

This doesn’t exempt those who don’t let the Spirit lead them, who walk after their flesh, and not after the spirit - something Paul warned us against doing in Galatians 5:21, above. .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Christians are dead to the law, and now are married to Jesus instead of the law, and have been DELIVERED FROM the law:

Perhaps it's just a fine point of contention, but I think we had been married to the flesh, not the law. The law acted as a kind of marriage license that kept us bound to the flesh in (un)holy matrimony, forcing us to submit and bear it's fruit (covetousness, hatred, etc.). But now that first husband 'flesh' has died, the law that kept us bound to him in marital obedience no longer has the authority to do that anymore. And so we are set free from the law. We are now free to be married to new husband Jesus and bear his fruit (love, joy, peace, self control, etc....).

 

[DPMartin]

The law hasn’t passed away, it’s still in effect - for the unconverted - not for born again Christians with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Christians are dead to the law, and now are married to Jesus instead of the law, and have been DELIVERED FROM the law:


Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law-by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, (Jesus) that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

(read 2 Corinthians 3 for more about the letter (which kills) in the old covenant vs the spirit that brings life, in the new).

The law doesn’t apply to Christians, just to the unconverted, because the law is NOT MEANT for a RIGHTEOUS MAN, but for the UNGODLY and for MURDERERS:


1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,


1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


Christians are the righteousness of God in Christ, thus the law is null and void for us, who are now righteous by faith, not by works of the law of Moses.


Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


And this agrees:


Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,being witnessed bythe law and the prophets;


Thus it hasn’t passed away, it just doesn’t apply to those born again, since it’s only meant for the UNCONVERTED, for ungodly and murderers, etc. 1 Tim 1:9 above.


And BEFORE faith came, we were imprisoned by the law, locked up by it until the coming of Christ, and now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian:


Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.


Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.


Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Put the 3 most relevant verses together in the above passage:

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is what many believers just don’t get - Christians don’t need an external law with the death penalty for breaking, if we are led by the indwelling spirit, and bear the fruit of the spirit, listed above - we have died to the law.

This doesn’t exempt those who don’t let the Spirit lead them, who walk after their flesh, and not after the spirit - something Paul warned us against doing in Galatians 5:21, above. .

ok, i'll bite

but the gentile were never under the law in the first place. the Lord God of Israel did not make a covenant with the gentile in the days of Moses, nor in the days of Abraham.

so it doesn't matter how many verses you quote, if you don't understand them.

this is a summery of what Paul was dealing with in his day. Jews were telling gentiles they had to be circumcised to be saved at every turn.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

so the law applies and or is applied. in every case in respect to a child of Israel and or a Child of God. a gentile not born again and evn this can be anyone:


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

so you say Paul is saying because of spirit you not subject to the law but Paul says here plainly that flesh minded isn't subject to the law therefore spiritually minded is.

Paul's not some idiot talking out both sides of his mouth, but many who think themselves great interpreters of Paul's writings are.

 

[Curtis]

ok, i'll bite

but the gentile were never under the law in the first place. the Lord God of Israel did not make a covenant with the gentile in the days of Moses, nor in the days of Abraham.

so it doesn't matter how many verses you quote, if you don't understand them.

this is a summery of what Paul was dealing with in his day. Jews were telling gentiles they had to be circumcised to be saved at every turn.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

so the law applies and or is applied. in every case in respect to a child of Israel and or a Child of God. a gentile not born again and evn this can be anyone:


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

so you say Paul is saying because of spirit you not subject to the law but Paul says here plainly that flesh minded isn't subject to the law therefore spiritually minded is.

Paul's not some idiot talking out both sides of his mouth, but many who think themselves great interpreters of Paul's writings are.

You’re the one out of context, nor me. Paul clearly said the law is in effect - but not for Christians- I established that unequivocally using many scriptures.

Your Romans 8 quote is out of context- Paul warns the brethren there, and elsewhere, against letting their flesh control them, and living carnally - and that if they do, they will die spiritually, and actually become Gods enemy.

And all you’ve done is confirmed what I wrote, with your Romans 3 quote - we are not in any way under the law of Moses - not because it ended, because it’s in effect with the unconverted- but we’ve died to the law.

Thanks for actually confirming my whole point.


You might try actually reading what I wrote, instead of skimming it looking for ways to refute the truth, then quoting the exact points I made as a refutation of those points.

And it wasn’t just circumcision that Paul and the church contended with - Jewish Christian converts claimed that Christians were obligated to be circumcised AND keep the law of Moses.

To whit:

There was a serious controversy in Paul’s day, because many of the Jewish Christian converts claimed that gentile believers were still required to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.


It got bad enough that all the apostles and church leaders met in Acts 15 to decide what should be done about the problem.


Act 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

Act 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.


They decided gentile believers were not under the law of Moses, and Peter called the law of Moses a yoke of burden:


Act 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,

Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?


Therefore, in Paul’s epistles - since he is the apostle TO the gentiles (Galatians 5:8)- he emphasizes continually that gentile believers are justified- made righteous - apart from works of the law of Moses.


Every time Paul mentions law, the law, works of the law, works, or works of righteousness*, he is always referring IN CONTEXT to the works of the law of Moses, which is easily determined by the surrounding verses, both before and after the proof texts that are used, including Ephesians 2:8-9.


( * Deuteronomy 6:25 keeping the works of the law of Moses was their righteousness)


Therefore we indeed are justified by faith apart from the works of the law of Moses, which is made up of 613 statutes, commands, and ordinances that all have to be kept - and per Ephesians 2:8-9; we are saved by grace, through faith, and NOT by works of the law of Moses!

We don’t have to sacrifice animals, keep feast days, kosher diets, burnt offerings, or any of the works of the law of Moses

As Paul also wrote, the law is in effect for the ungodly, aka those who are unconverted - the non Christian - but was never meant for a righteous man: and we are righteous by faith, apart from the works of the law of Moses, thus we have died to the law.

Period.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

we are not in any way under the law of Moses - not because it ended, because it’s in effect with the unconverted- but we’ve died to the law.

In context you'll see that we are not under the law in that we are no longer under the power of the law to make us subject to the flesh. And because we're not serving the flesh we are not under the condemnation of the law either.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Every time Paul mentions law, the law, works of the law, works, or works of righteousness*, he is always referring IN CONTEXT to the works of the law of Moses, which is easily determined by the surrounding verses, both before and after the proof texts that are used, including Ephesians 2:8-9.

And including Romans 3:31.

 

[Curtis]

In context you'll see that we are not under the law in that we are no longer under the power of the law to make us subject to the flesh. And because we're not serving the flesh we are not under the condemnation of the law either.

However since the law was not meant for the righteous, but for the ungodly, if a Christian becomes a reprobate and lives a sinful unrighteous life, they have put themselves back under the law of sin and death, aka the law of Moses.

Hence Paul’s many warnings to the brethren to let no man deceive us that we can walk after the flesh, and walk in darkness instead of the light, yet remain in Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Therefore we indeed are justified by faith apart from the works of the law of Moses, which is made up of 613 statutes, commands, and ordinances that all have to be kept - and per Ephesians 2:8-9; we are saved by grace, through faith, and NOT by works of the law of Moses!

This is not a question of whether or not we have to keep the law of Moses to save ourselves. Everybody knows that justification is secured by faith in the promise of God, apart from the merit of works. The question is whether or not the law of Moses represents the obedient behavior of the born again child of God. The faith that justifies all by itself apart from works does in fact uphold the law of Moses. Justifying faith doesn't keep it to the letter. It doesn't have to. Many of the requirements of the law are already upheld and satisfied for us through the finished work of Christ on the cross and applied to us through our faith in that work.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

if a Christian becomes a reprobate and lives a sinful unrighteous life, they have put themselves back under the law of sin and death, aka the law of Moses.

I agree completely. As long as we continue to believe and walk in obedience by the Spirit of God we will not be under the condemnation of the law.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Hence Paul’s many warnings to the brethren to let no man deceive us that we can walk after the flesh, and walk in darkness instead of the light, yet remain in Christ.

I agree. Purposely walking in the old life of sin we claim to have been saved from is nothing more than unbelief and a rejection of Christ. That person will not be saved when Jesus comes back if he does not repent in the space of time God gives for them to repent.

 

[Truman]

We are dead to the law of sin and death. God's law stands firm in heaven forever.

 

[kcnalp]

ok, i'll bite

but the gentile were never under the law in the first place. the Lord God of Israel did not make a covenant with the gentile in the days of Moses, nor in the days of Abraham.

That's a FACT!

Psalm 147:19-20 (NKJV)
19 He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel.
20 He has not dealt thus with any nation; And as for His judgments, they have not known them. Praise the LORD!

Galatians 3:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[Curtis]

And including Romans 3:31.

Indeed.

And including 1 Timothy 1:7-9

 

[Curtis]

This is not a question of whether or not we have to keep the law of Moses to save ourselves. Everybody knows that justification is secured by faith in the promise of God, apart from the merit of works. The question is whether or not the law of Moses represents the obedient behavior of the born again child of God. The faith that justifies all by itself apart from works does in fact uphold the law of Moses. Justifying faith doesn't keep it to the letter. It doesn't have to. Many of the requirements of the law are already upheld and satisfied for us through the finished work of Christ on the cross and applied to us through our faith in that work.

(First of all, to any newbies, posted scriptures that are underlined are live links to the Bible on this website, then the back arrow brings you right back).


Disagree.

The law of Moses is one body of law, that has to be kept down to the least jot and tittle , with no exceptions - which is why Paul warns that if anyone keeps any part of the law for their justification, they have to keep all of it - all 613 statutes, commands, and ordinances - including animal sacrifices.

The law of Moses was deliberately made to be a burden and to be a yoke of bondage, and was purposely faulty - to contrast trying to earn righteousness by keeping all the works of the law, - with justification by grace, faith, and repentance in the new covenant.

Galatians 4:21-31 the covenant given on mount Sinai is bondage.

Acts 15:10 Peter calls the law of Moses a yoke (of burden) neither they nor their fathers could bear.
This was in regards to the Jewish Christian converts saying gentile believers must be both circumcised, AND keep the law of Moses Acts 15:5

2 Corinthians 3:6-11 the apostles are ministers of the new covenant of the law of the spirit, that is contrasted with the ten commands given to Moses on the mountain, which are the ministry of death, the letter that kills, and the ministry of condemnation who’s past glory has ended.

The essence and substance of Gods law isn’t the Decalogue or the law of Moses, but the law of love, aka the Royal law, aka the law of Christ - and keeping the two love commands are the fulfillment of new covenant law.

No, the two love commands are not the Decalogue restated - as many claim - they are actually radically different, and superior.

Maranatha

 

[kcnalp]

Hebrews 8:13 (NKJV)
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.

Amen Jesus!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The law of Moses is one body of law, that has to be kept down to the least jot and tittle , with no exceptions - which is why Paul warns that if anyone keeps any part of the law for their justification, they have to keep all of it - all 613 statutes, commands, and ordinances - including animal sacrifices.

Yes, read your own words. You only have to literally keep the entire law (the one's that apply to you) if you are trying to be justified by the law. Upholding the law by faith in this New Covenant has nothing to do with trying to make yourself righteous. The question is, "what do we do to uphold the law of Moses through faith in this New Covenant?" Romans 3:31

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The law of Moses was deliberately made to be a burden and to be a yoke of bondage, and was purposely faulty - to contrast trying to earn righteousness by keeping all the works of the law, - with justification by grace, faith, and repentance in the new covenant.

Right. So let's discard the argument about law keeping/upholding being about trying to make oneself righteous in God's sight. We all know that we are not to attempt to do that. The argument is about how we uphold the law of Moses through our faith Romans 3:31. That is what we are to seek to understand here.

 

[Curtis]

Right. So let's discard the argument about law keeping/upholding being about trying to make oneself righteous in God's sight. We all know that we are not to attempt to do that. The argument is about how we uphold the law of Moses through our faith Romans 3:31. That is what we are to seek to understand here.

We don’t have anything to do with the old covenant law.

New covenant law that fulfills the substance and essence of Gods law, is the law of love, aka the law of Christ, with its subset of the two love commands, which don’t merely fulfill the ten commands, (that only contains negative commands that limit the harm we are allowed to do to our neighbors, but has not one drop of love for them in those commands), - because the Decalogue contains nothing positive that promotes helping our neighbor, instead of just not harming him.

That’s why the 2 love commands are far superior to the Decalogue which they superseded.

Maranatha

 

[Curtis]

Yes, read your own words. You only have to literally keep the entire law (the one's that apply to you) if you are trying to be justified by the law. Upholding the law by faith in this New Covenant has nothing to do with trying to make yourself righteous. The question is, "what do we do to uphold the law of Moses through faith in this New Covenant?" Romans 3:31

Soo far you are failing to discern that the essence and substance of Gods law is what believers keep, completely apart from the law of Moses.

Maranatha

 

[marks]

Perhaps it's just a fine point of contention, but I think we had been married to the flesh, not the law. The law acted as a kind of marriage license that kept us bound to the flesh in (un)holy matrimony, forcing us to submit and bear it's fruit (covetousness, hatred, etc.). But now that first husband 'flesh' has died, the law that kept us bound to him in marital obedience no longer has the authority to do that anymore. And so we are set free from the law. We are now free to be married to new husband Jesus and bear his fruit (love, joy, peace, self control, etc....).

Romans 7:1-4 KJV
1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

In this passage, it's the relationship to the Law that is severed. From Law to Christ, not from flesh to Christ. Once ruled by Law, now we are ruled by Christ. Once we were in flesh, now we are in spirit.

Much love!