Questions, Answers, and Everything In Between: Exploring God

[face2face]

The purpose of this thread is to ask questions, seek answers, and engage in discussions about God, His plan, and everything in between.

My first question to start the conversation is this:

Did Jesus himself confirm that the OT Jews fully understood God's identity and had salvific knowledge of Him?

I’m sure the discussion could take many directions, and I’m open to that. Over the past week or so, I’ve gained several insights from the Trinity discussions, which have exposed me to a wide range of beliefs, with myself being at one extreme of that spectrum.

If I can clarify the question a bit: I’m not implying that all Jews are saved by this knowledge, but rather, did they know God, His identity, and His plan of salvation through them?

If you have examples, great!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Alright, 19 views and yet no one is willing to tackle that question. I’m sure some started typing a reply, only to realize the answer was too polarizing and deleted it, or they didn’t want to give too much ground and decided to erase it instead.

I'm reminded of Jesus' question to his opponents:

The baptism of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?” And they discussed it among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ Matthew 21:25

Jesus was able to confound them because they held a certain position both in their teachings and understanding of John and Christ. In the end they remained silent which was often the case.

Another interesting observation in asking hard questions is whether they actually get answered honestly or just discarded. If Christ is able to do this to the Pharisees could he do this to us? And how would we fair?

Food for thought

F2F

 

[ScottA]

Did Jesus himself confirm that the OT Jews fully understood God's identity and had salvific knowledge of Him?

No. On the contrary, Jesus' last words regarding Israel before "It is finished", included, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).

 

[face2face]

No. On the contrary, Jesus' last words regarding Israel before "It is finished", included, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).

Well done on answering Scott! I'll come back to this thank you

 

[face2face]

No. On the contrary, Jesus' last words regarding Israel before "It is finished", included, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).

So this relates to their Messiah, right?...not the OT believers

The OT contains those Elect Jews who are saved

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, Ro 11:7.

Does this change your approach?

F2F

 

[Keiw]

The Israelites knew 100% who the true God was. They studied his written word, plus he spoke through prophets. They served the Abrahamic God= a single being God=YHWH ( Jehovah)-Their govt was a theocracy. Headed by an anointed king( spiritual)--They fell over and over not because they didn't who God was but by their flesh. That is the downfall for most living in history.

 

[ScottA]

So this relates to their Messiah, right?...not the OT believers

The OT contains those Elect Jews who are saved

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, Ro 11:7.

Does this change your approach?

F2F

I am not sure just what it is you are getting at.

Even in failure Israel did succeed in being a light unto the gentiles, and a foundation built with flesh and blood, even to make straight the way of the Lord, who having died and paid for the sins of the world, bore fruit of the Spirit thereafter.

 

[Verily]

No. On the contrary, Jesus' last words regarding Israel before "It is finished", included, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34).

I'll add this to yours

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

John 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

 

[face2face]

@ScottA @Verily

I think you both might have missed the point of the opening question.

When Paul wrote that God preserved Israel for the sake of the Elect i.e. Abraham, Isaac & Jacob etc these are those who are saved and those who understood God, His Person and Position in the Heavens. Yes there were those who were hardened who knew not the Faith of Abraham but many we know did.

Can you see how this question has relevance?

Did Jesus himself confirm that the OT Jews fully understood God's identity and had salvific knowledge of Him?

Jesus interprets Gen 22 in John 8 as one such example.

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” Jn 8:56.

By his eye of faith Abraham not only understood Yahweh but understood God would have a promised son who would fulfill the type of Isaac.

F2F

 

[Verily]

@ScottA @Verily

I think you both might have missed the point of the opening question.

When Paul wrote that God preserved Israel for the sake of the Elect i.e. Abraham, Isaac & Jacob etc these are those who are saved and those who understood God, His Person and Position in the Heavens. Yes there were those who were hardened who knew not the Faith of Abraham but many we know did.

Can you see how this question has relevance?

Did Jesus himself confirm that the OT Jews fully understood God's identity and had salvific knowledge of Him?

Jesus interprets Gen 22 in John 8 as one such example.

Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” Jn 8:56.

By his eye of faith Abraham not only understood Yahweh but understood God would have a promised son who would fulfill the type of Isaac.

F2F

F2F you stated

The purpose of this thread is to ask questions, seek answers, and engage in discussions about God, His plan, and everything in between.

My first question to start the conversation is this:

Did Jesus himself confirm that the OT Jews fully understood God's identity and had salvific knowledge of Him?

I’m sure the discussion could take many directions, and I’m open to that.

And so I posted what Jesus said,

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

John 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Can you rephrase the question, because I see Jesus telling them that in their own service to God (and missing it) thus actually fulfulling the scriptures they search (for eternal life) which testify of him, and when he appeared they fulfulled the same in condemning him (who is their salvation) and because they knew him not nor the voices of the prophets that are read in their own synagogues every sabbath (which he is the Lord of)

I dont know how this misses

 

[face2face]

F2F you stated

The purpose of this thread is to ask questions, seek answers, and engage in discussions about God, His plan, and everything in between.

My first question to start the conversation is this:

Did Jesus himself confirm that the OT Jews fully understood God's identity and had salvific knowledge of Him?

I’m sure the discussion could take many directions, and I’m open to that.

And so I posted what Jesus said,

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

John 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Correct, those who were hardened did not know the Father

Acts 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Agree.

Can you rephrase the question, because I see Jesus telling them that in their own service to God (and missing it) thus actually fulfulling the scriptures they search (for eternal life) which testify of him, and when he appeared they fulfulled the same in condemning him (who is their salvation) and because they knew him not nor the voices of the prophets that are read in their own synagogues every sabbath (which he is the Lord of)

I dont know how this misses

God took from His People a remnant

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. Ro 11:5.

The point being established is the OT Elect were saved before the revelation of Jesus Christ though he was promised and believed upon in the large he was unknown until his revelation.

Now I understand the sacrifice of Christ is effective both past, present and future which is how these faithful are saved.

Clearly the God (Yahweh) of the Shema was known and understood long before Christ was revealed.

F2F

 

[Verily]

Correct, those who were hardened did not know the Father

Agree.

God took from His People a remnant

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. Ro 11:5.

The point being established is the OT Elect were saved before the revelation of Jesus Christ though he was promised and believed upon in the large he was unknown until his revelation.

Now I understand the sacrifice of Christ is effective both past, present and future which is how these faithful are saved.

Clearly the God (Yahweh) of the Shema was known and understood long before Christ was revealed.

F2F

I have no idea what your last sentence was, but ok

 

[face2face]

I have no idea what your last sentence was, but ok

It simply means the Jews did not require a triune god to save them. It's clear from Christ and Paul words that many understood the One True God and held a meaningful relationship with Him.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I have no idea what your last sentence was, but ok

But your original response is correct about Israel for the most rejected the Son of God and for 2000 years they have suffered terribly for it.

F2F

 

[Verily]

It simply means the Jews did not require a triune god to save them. It's clear from Christ and Paul words that many understood the One True God and held a meaningful relationship with Him.

F2F

I don't see Jesus preaching "a triune" but most of them missed him.

Jesus does mention three here (well, besides David, he would be four)

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

 

[Verily]

But your original response is correct about Israel for the most rejected the Son of God and for 2000 years they have suffered terribly for it.

F2F

Ok, thanks

 

[Keiw]

I don't see Jesus preaching "a triune" but most of them missed him.

Jesus does mention three here (well, besides David, he would be four)

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

David said-YHVH(Jehovah) said to my Lord.

 

[Verily]

David said-YHVH(Jehovah) said to my Lord.

Yeah, Jesus is quoting Psalm 110:1 Where else could you possibly think he was quoting from?

 

[face2face]

I don't see Jesus preaching "a triune" but most of them missed him.

Jesus does mention three here (well, besides David, he would be four)

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

As you would be aware it not whether one can count to three or four, its whether one can prove the convoluted formula which we know isn't found anywhere in the text. It's incredible how Jesus can call David Lord also! I guess you would need to know the Masters roots.

F2F

 

[Verily]

As you would be aware it not whether one can count to three or four, its whether one can prove the convoluted formula which we know isn't found anywhere in the text. It's incredible how Jesus can call David Lord also! I guess you would need to know the Masters roots.

F2F

I dont really count, I think you wanted a triune God thing or not in some way, and I only know to quote where Jesus mentions the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in that verse so I posted it.

I dont think Jesus is convoluted for mentioning all three of them there no.