Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy? - since the prophecies were acquired rather than intended

[St. SteVen]

This is a follow-up to the previous topic:

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)​

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus. But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant. Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended? Here are a couple. (we'll need to...

www.christianityboard.com

In the previous topic it was somewhat unanimously agreed that messianic prophecies were acquired instead of intended.
(unless I missed what the unanimous agreement was) ???

This obviously begs the question: Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy?

The typical apologetic is that the fulfillment of OT prophecy proves that Jesus was the anticipated Messiah.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

How many of these 70 prophecies are legitimate?

Bible passage/Prophecy/Fulfillment

1
Genesis 3:15
When sin first enters the world, God promises a savior -- the Messiah -- to resolve the problem of sin and reconcile people with God
Galatians 4:4-5, Matthew 1:18

2
Genesis 3:15
The Messiah would be born of a woman -- he would be a human, as opposed to an angel or other type of being
Galatians 4:4-5, Matthew 1:18

3
Genesis 22:18
The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham, because of Abraham's great faith
Matthew 1:1, Luke 3:34, Romans 4:13, Galatians 3:7

4
Genesis 26:1-5
The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham's son Isaac
Romans 9:7, Hebrews 11:18, Matthew 1:2

5
Genesis 28:10-14
The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham's grandson Jacob (He would be an Israelite)
Matthew 1:2, Luke 3:34

6
Genesis 49:10
The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham's great-grandson Judah (He would be a Jew)
Matthew 1:3, Luke 3:33

7
Isaiah 11:1-10
The Messiah would be a descendant of Jesse, who is a descendant of Judah
Matthew 1:6, Luke 3:32

8
2 Samuel 7:12-16
The Messiah would be a descendant of King David, who is a son of Jesse
Matthew 1:6, Luke 3:31

9
Isaiah 11:1
The Messiah would appear after a great devastation for Jesse's descendants (Babylonian conquest)
Luke 3:1-23. History: The Babylonians destroyed the Kingdom of Judah and forced many Jews into exile and captivity (about 2,600 years ago).

10
Jeremiah 23:3-6
The Messiah would appear after the regathering of exiles
Luke 3:1-23. History: Jews began returning to their homeland after the fall of the Neo-Babylonian Empire (about 2,500 years ago).

11
Daniel 9:24-26
The Messiah would appear after the rebuilding of Jerusalem
Luke 3:1-23. History: Jerusalem was fully rebuilt when Jesus arrived as the Messiah about 2,000 years ago.

12
Genesis 49:10
The Messiah would appear after a succession of rulers from the Tribe of Judah
Matthew 2. History: Herod the Great became the first foreigner to reign from Jerusalem as king over the Jews in Israel. Jesus was born during his reign.

13
Ezekiel 21:26-27
The Messiah would appear after a disruption to the succession of Davidic kings, who were members of the Tribe of Judah
Matthew 2. History: Zedekiah, who lived during the time of Ezekiel, was the last Davidic king until Jesus was born.

14
Micah 5:1-2
The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem
Matthew 2:1-12, Luke 2:1-21

15
Genesis 17:15-21
The predicted miraculous birth of Isaac foreshadows the predicted miraculous birth of Jesus
Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-38. Both births were the result of miracles and the fulfillment of prophecy.

16
Isaiah 7:13-14
Isaiah foretold the miraculous virgin birth of Jesus
Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-38

17
Isaiah 7:14
The Messiah would be called Immanuel (God with us)
Matthew 1:23

18
Daniel 9:26
The Messiah would arrive before the (Roman) destruction of Jerusalem
Luke 3:1-23. History: The Romans destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70. Jesus appeared as the Messiah in about AD 30.

19
Malachi 3:1
The Messiah would arrive at a time when there was a Temple in Jerusalem
Matthew 21:12. History: The Temple was destroyed AD 70, about 2,000 years ago, and has never been rebuilt.

20
Isaiah 40:1–9
The Messiah would be preceded by a forerunner
Matthew 3:1-4

21
Malachi 3:1
A messenger would prepare the way for the Lord
Mark 1:1-11

22
Daniel 9:24-27
The Messiah would arrive 483 years after a call to restore and to build Jerusalem
John 1:29-34. History: Artaxerxes began giving permission to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC. Jesus began his public ministy in AD 26.

23
Isaiah 61:1-2
The public ministry of Jesus is foreshadowed by Isaiah
Luke 4:14-30

24
Isaiah 9:1-2
The Messiah would have a ministry in Galilee and be a light to Gentiles
Matthew 4:12-17

25
Isaiah 35:4-6
The Messiah would perform miracles
Matthew 4:23-25. Jesus performed miracles on 50 occasions, according to Jesus the Miracle Worker

26
Psalm 78:1–2
The Messiah would teach in parables
Matthew 13:3, 13-15

27
Deuteronomy 18:15-18
The Messiah would be like Moses, who was a prophet, leader, intermediary, deliverer and miracle worker
John 5:45-47, 6:14

28
Isaiah 42:1-9
The Messiah would be humble and meek
Matthew 11:28-30

29
Psalm 2:1-12
The Messiah would have a father-son relationship with God
Matthew 14:33

30
Isaiah 9:6-7
The Messiah would be a son who would be called Mighty God
Matthew 1:23, John 10:30, 20:27-29

31
Zechariah 9:9
He would humbly announce himself publicly as the Messiah by riding a lowly donkey into Jerusalem
Matthew 21:6-9

32
Jeremiah 31:31-34
The Messiah would be associated with a "new covenant" involving forgiveness of sin
Hebrews 8

33
Psalm 41
Psalm 41 foreshadowed the betrayal of Jesus
John 13:18

34
Psalm 22:6
The Messiah would be despised
Luke 23:21-23

35
Psalm 118:22-24
The Messiah would be rejected even though he is the cornerstone of a plan from God
Matthew 21:42-43

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[St. SteVen]

--- CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST ---

How many of these 70 prophecies are legitimate?

Bible passage/Prophecy/Fulfillment

36
Isaiah 53:1-3
The Messiah would be despised and rejected
Matthew 27:21-23

37
Daniel 9:24-26
Daniel predicted the timing of when the Messiah would be rejected
Mark 15:1-15

38
Isaiah 53:7
The Messiah would be persecuted
Matthew 27:27-31

39
Isaiah 53:7
The Messiah would be silent before his accusers
Matthew 27:12-14

40
Isaiah 50:6-7
The Messiah would be spat upon and beaten
Matthew 26:67, 27:30

41
Psalm 35:19, 69:4
The Messiah would be hated without reason or cause
John 15:25

42
Isaiah 53:12
The Messiah would be 'numbered with the transgressors'
Luke 22:37, 23:32

43
Isaiah 50:4-10
The Messiah would serve God with perfect obedience
Matthew 26:39, John 8:28

44
Isaiah 50:4-10
The Messiah would willingly submit to the will of God and the abuse of people
Matthew 26:47-56

45
Genesis 22:1-18
The near-sacrifice of Isaac foreshadows the sacrifice of Jesus
John 19:1-37

46
Psalm 22
Psalm 22 foreshadows the crucifixion of Jesus
Matthew 27:32-44, John 19:1-37, 20:27

47
Psalm 22:8
The Messiah would be mocked for his faith in God
Matthew 27:39, 27:43

48
Psalm 22:17-18
The Messiah would be stripped of his clothing
Luke 23:34-35

49
Psalm 22:18
Onlookers would cast lots for his clothing
Matthew 27:35, Luke 23:34, John 19:23

50
Psalm 22:16
The Messiah's hands and feet would be pierced
John 19:37, 20:27

51
Psalm 22:15
The Messiah's suffering would include thirst
John 19:28

52
Psalm 22:1
The Messiah would cry out to God
Matthew 27:46

53
Zechariah 12:10
Zechariah foreshadows the piercing of Jesus
John 19:34-37

54
Isaiah 53:12
The Messiah would intercede for sinners
Matthew 10:32, Luke 23:34, Romans 8:34

55
Isaiah 53:4-9
The Messiah would suffer and die for the sins of others
John 19:1-37, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 John 4:10

56
Isaiah 53:8-9
The Messiah would be "cut off out of the land of the living" (executed)
John 19:1-37

57
Daniel 9:26
The Messiah would be "cut off" (executed)
John 19:1-37

58
Daniel 9:24
The Messiah's sacrificial death would bring an end to the problem of sin
Galatians 1:3-5

59
Genesis 3:15
The Messiah would defeat evil at his own expense
John 19:1-37, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 John 4:10

60
Isaiah 53:9
The Messiah would be buried in a rich man's grave
Matthew 27:57-61

61
Psalm 16:8-11
God's holy one (the Messiah) would be resurrected
John 20:1-18; Acts 2:29-32, 13:32-37, 1 Corinthians 15

62
Isaiah 53:10-12
The Messiah would be resurrected and see the results of his atoning death
John 20:1-18, Acts 1:8

63
Psalm 110
The Messiah would be seated at the right hand of God the Father, meaning he would ascend into heaven
Matthew 26:64, Luke 24:50-53, John 20:17, Acts 1:1-12. Jesus ascended 40 days after his resurrection.

64
Isaiah 11:10
The Messiah would appeal to Gentiles
Acts 1:8, 13:47-48. History: Christianity is the world's largest religion.

65
Isaiah 42:1-4
The Messiah would affect people throughout the world
Matthew 28:19-20, John 12:18-21

66
Isaiah 42:6
The Messiah would be a light to people around the world
Luke 2:22-40

67
Zechariah 9:9-11
The Messiah would have a worldwide impact
Acts 1:8, 13:47-48.

68
Isaiah 49:6
The Messiah would bring salvation to the ends of the earth
Acts 13:47-48. History: Christianity is the world's most widespread religion.

69
Psalm 110
The Messiah will return to preside over Judgment Day
Daniel 7:13-14, 12:1-2. To be fulfilled in the future when Jesus returns.

70
Daniel 7:13–14
The Messiah will reign eternally over the Kingdom of God, also known as the Kingdom of Heaven
Luke 1:31-33

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[VictoryinJesus]

This obviously begs the question: Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy?

Children? (Of Great value, promised Children)
Acts 13:33 God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

1 Peter 1:9-12 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. [10] Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: [11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[St. SteVen]

... which things the angels desire to look into.

Does that mean they are busy fact-checking? - LOL

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Children? (Of Great value, promised Children)
Acts 13:33 God has fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he has raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou are my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Question: Was that the intention of the writer of the 2nd Psalm, or was the prophecy acquired?

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[St. SteVen]

1 Peter 1:9-12 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. [10] Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: [11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Were the prophecies intended or acquired?

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus. But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant. Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended? Here are a couple. (we'll need to...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Were the prophecies intended or acquired?

Can you explain the difference in intended or acquired?

 

[St. SteVen]

Can you explain the difference in intended or acquired?

Intended means it was the OT writers intent. (an actual prophecy)
Acquired means the NT writer claimed it as a prophecy. (even though it was not the OT writers intent)
Best to read through the previous topic. (examples are given)

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus. But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant. Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended? Here are a couple. (we'll need to...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Intended means it was the OT writers intent. (an actual prophecy)

Then I’d choose intent.. Especially considering the passage on when the Holy Spirit was in them did signify. How it was reveal unto them the sufferings of Christ and the glory that would follow.

Acquired means the NT writer claimed it as a prophecy. (even though it was not the OT writers intent)

NT writers claimed it as prophecy, even though it was not the OT writers intent. But it says those prophets which were true and not false …what they prophesied of as to come proved to be true, for what they spoke of came to pass. Otherwise we wouldn’t be discussing the suffering of Christ and whether it was intent or acquired.

Best to read through the previous topic. (examples are given)

I did. I read the first of the thread and then confused, I skimmed looking for clarity in the difference between intent and acquired. I even googled it with no luck of Google comparing the differences in intent and acquired.

This was how I would think of intent or acquired.
If my intent is to give you a gift…I have intent but you do not have the gift yet, and I could change my mind. The intent is mine, you have acquired nothing yet from my intent.


Acquired to me is your having received the gift. It is no longer my intent to give you the gift. You have possession (acquired) the gift.

That is why I asked you to clarify. In the above to me there is a huge difference in intent and acquired. Regarding

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended?​

…still I think the messianic prophecies were acquired by the children which was the intent of the forefathers. Just as Stephen said God doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands. The intent is to clarify where God dwells, Saul and those that laid their coats at a young Saul’s feet after they stoned Stephen, didn’t want to acquire that intent. Instead it infuriated them. Yet Paul becomes intent/acquired boldly saying “not I but Christ lives in me!” Awaiting the real intent was what Stephen prophesied of. To me the real question is not if it was the prophets true intent, but if they who crucified Christ acquired the intent of the messianic prophecies: or did they reject the intent? Acts 13:26-27 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you fears God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. [27] For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Does that mean they are busy fact-checking?

[

Depends on what is the intent of “angels desire to look” means? What a person acquires as “angels desire to look” is the confusing part.

1 Peter 1:12 Lexicon: It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven-- things into which angels long to look.



1 Peter 1:13 Lexicon: Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.



1 Peter 1:14 Lexicon: As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,



1 Peter 1:15 Lexicon: but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;



1 Peter 1:16 Lexicon: because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."



1 Peter 1:17 Lexicon: If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;



1 Peter 1:18 Lexicon: knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
Futile …helps with the question you presented of what value is it?

 

[Wick Stick]

Intended means it was the OT writers intent. (an actual prophecy)

Acquired means the NT writer claimed it as a prophecy. (even though it was not the OT writers intent)

[

Is BOTH an option?

In the other thread, I said that Jesus and His apostles seem to have viewed God's words as having creative force. So then when "God says," then those words were something that would come true again and again. It was for today as well as yesterday (and probably tomorrow as well).

 

[Wick Stick]

This is a follow-up to the previous topic:

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)​

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus. But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant. Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended? Here are a couple. (we'll need to...

www.christianityboard.com

In the previous topic it was somewhat unanimously agreed that messianic prophecies were acquired instead of intended.
(unless I missed what the unanimous agreement was) ???

This obviously begs the question: Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy?

The typical apologetic is that the fulfillment of OT prophecy proves that Jesus was the anticipated Messiah.

[

Let's say that prophecy is a pattern of things, and that it comes from God. Now, since I have a pattern to look at, I can compare things to it.

Do my actions fit into God's pattern? If so, I may be on the right track! If not...

 

[Wick Stick]

Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy?

Whatever the answer is... the apostles certainly found some value.

The NT quotes prophets from the Old Testament 233 times. It quotes non-prophets just 15 times.

(Sorry for the triple post... I find this interesting)

 

[Davy]

This is a follow-up to the previous topic:

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)​

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)

I recently remembered a prophecy referred to by Jesus. But I also remembered that orthodox Jews typically reject these "prophecies" saying that is not what they meant. Were some of these prophecies, or other OT quotations acquired rather than intended? Here are a couple. (we'll need to...

www.christianityboard.com

In the previous topic it was somewhat unanimously agreed that messianic prophecies were acquired instead of intended.
(unless I missed what the unanimous agreement was) ???

This obviously begs the question: Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy?

The typical apologetic is that the fulfillment of OT prophecy proves that Jesus was the anticipated Messiah.

[

What an absolutely CRAZY thought with the above!

Your doubting about Old Testament prophecy reveals you treat what Apostle Peter said as a LIE!

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

How utterly rebellious one is against God by even suggesting that those Old Testament prophets got those prophecies from any other... source than GOD Himself!!!

 

[St. SteVen]

Let's say that prophecy is a pattern of things, and that it comes from God.

That's a very interesting observation. Thanks.

But we are still left with the obvious problem of claimed prophetic fulfillment that is highly questionable.
Do we want to base a pattern on that?

There seems to be a pattern of dishonesty.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

That's a very interesting observation. Thanks.

But we are still left with the obvious problem of claimed prophetic fulfillment that is highly questionable.
Do we want to base a pattern on that?

There seems to be a pattern of dishonesty.

[

Story time!

My dad owned a carpet cleaning business for most of his life. One day he was cleaning carpets in some sketchy apartments when a man walked into the vacant apartment with a very large kitchen knife and bad intentions. In that moment, my father says that the little voice in the back of his head whispered a Bible verse to him... "thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me." He realized that he was holding his carpet cleaning wand... that's a 4' long piece of hollow steel with some sharp edges on one end, that also sprays boiling water...


Long story short, Dad planted that thing in front of him like Gandalf facing down a Balrog... and the fellow with the knife decided it was time to leave.

By my reckoning, Dad used Psalm 23 very much out of context, and also in a way pretty similar to what Matthew frequently does in his gospel. I'm giving them both a pass, though, for basically the same reasons.

 

[MatthewG]

“We who are strong must be considerate of those who are sensitive about things like this. We must not just please ourselves. We should help others do what is right and build them up in the Lord. For even Christ didn’t live to please himself. As the Scriptures say, “The insults of those who insult you, O God, have fallen on me.” Such things were written in the Scriptures long ago to teach us. And the Scriptures give us hope and encouragement as we wait patiently for God’s promises to be fulfilled.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NLT‬‬

They Old Testament is useful for teaching.