"Is excessive interpretation the root cause of differences in understanding and doctrinal divisions in the Bible?"
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I believe righteous God-fearing Gentiles were saved the same way that righteous Israelites under the old covenant were saved before the cross of Christ.......as the scripture says, "they without us would not be made perfect". That includes Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham...and however many righteous people were not recorded in scripture....all whose hearts were right with God before the Law was given and before Christ was revealed. There is a way in which the cross of Christ reaches back in history, even though not yet revealed, since the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world....but they could not be "perfected" until after the death and resurrection of Christ. These were resurrected in the first resurrection (which we will have a part in) when Jesus was resurrected and I believe were perfected then....I believe this is why Jesus went down into the place of the dead after His death to preach the gospel to them, that He might be revealed to them finally at that time. So salvation is still through Him, His death and resurrection, at any time in history.
It's not that cut and dried. There are a number of factors involved in Christian growth. To begin with each one receives their own measure of faith and grace in the beginning, some receive greater, some less, and in different ways too, since there are different parts of the body with different gifts. Another one is that we must pay a price for understanding. "BUY the truth, but sell it not." If we don't pay a price we will not grow in understanding of the word and in knowledge of God, and we will not increase our measure of faith and grace. Jesus said to count the cost to follow Him. God chastises who He loves as sons that we may partake of His holiness. The extra oil for the lamps of the ten virgins had to be "bought", only the initial deposit was free.
I would add that in Romans 5 God tells us that He did not account men's sins against the before the Law was given. That leaves a wide open door to salvation to those who wanted to know God. And we know from Scripture that God spoke with whomever He chose to in those days.
Much love!
Brother I'm sorry but I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point. I don't believe that means they were exonerated....even if God wasn't imputing their personal sins to them before the Law (if that is the right way to understand that verse), the rest of the passage indicates they were still under condemnation by inheritance....because of Adam's sin.
In order to receive exoneration/justification and inherit eternal life, we must first become an heir....become a child of God through Christ and be saved...by receiving the Spirit of adoption. That is what that Romans 5 passage is expounding as far as I understand it......all inherited the one man Adam's condemnation and the penalty of death through the flesh, but now we can by the same token inherit eternal life through one man Christ (through His Spirit, for those who will receive Him - we have to become God's child to be His heir and inherit eternal life from Him). I hope that makes sense and addresses what you were saying. There is only life (eternal) through the Spirit...the Spirit is life:
Rom 8:10
And IF Christ be in you, the body (flesh) is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Sorry, I'm not sure I'm following your train of thought.
The first disciples of Jesus were illiterate as most common people were in His day. They had Him teaching them orally, directly. No need for correct structured sentences.
Then for the following 1500 years there was no correct structured sentences of the scriptures.
We have the living accompanying Spirit to lead us into all truth, Who reminds us of what Jesus said. Which most was never put into written form anyway.
Why is there so much reliance on human intervention, human ingenuity and human wisdom?
Are we that foolish that we would sideline the most valued Gift, the Person, the Spirit of God. Why not rely on Him alone? Why do we replace Him with other mediums?
So you don't pray according to this suggested prayer? Which is fine.
Yet Jesus was refering to His Father, the Creator of us all when saying pray, Our Father ..... lead us not I to temptation. Jesus, from experience, knew He does, as He did lead Him into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Short history of the Bible.
The first actual Bound Bible was commissioned by Emperor Constantine. They are called the 50 Bibles of Constantine. These Bibles were hand written in Latin and Hand illustrated and only contained the New Testament. But only clergy were allowed to read it, it was not available to the public. Around 330 AD
From there you have people that are translating the scriptures but they exist as loose texts. What does loose texts mean? The pages are loose or some texts are held together with metal rings or leather. If the Catholic Church caught them doing this they were killed.
The Vulgate was the first authorized translations but was not a book. 382 AD then revisions. The Catholic Church affirmed the Vulgate as its official Latin bound Bible at the Council of Trent in 1550. Not available to the public.
The Bishops' Bible is an English edition of the Bible which was produced under the authority of the established Church of England in 1568. It was substantially revised in 1572, and the 1602 edition. Not available to the public.
William Tyndale version of the scriptures written in English 1522-1535. He wrote it to be sneaked out to the people in Europe. He was strangled and burnt at the stake.
The Geneva Bible, sometimes known by the Breeches Bible, is one of the most historically significant translations of the Bible into English, preceding the Douay Rheims Bible by 22 years, and the King James Version by 51 years. It was the primary Bible of 16th-century English Protestantism It was the Bibles taken to America on the Mayflower.
The King James Version of the scriptures 1611. Early English Bible written in Shakespearian poetic style. It was the first Bible that the word Jesus appeared in. Type set errors in certain printings of this Bible were named after the errors, the Adulterer’s Bible, the Vinegar Bible, the Murmur’s Bible, and Wife Hater’s Bible.
From there are the Modern translations of the scriptures that are much more accurate.
The problem is a flawed understanding of God's written word and false hopes for a "Promised Land" which passed from Israel's grip many years ago because of their continual sin. God's prophetic promises have always been conditional on their relationship with Him.
It is this flawed relationship that has cause many of the errors that we see in relation to what God is trying to do but which we, "the religious elite" oppose, much to our detriment.
Shalom
It is this flawed relationship that has cause many of the errors that we see in relation to what God is trying to do but which we, "the religious elite" oppose, much to our detriment.
Shalom
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Which begs a few questions.
Who inspired the number of books?
Or were the uninspired books removed?
And if so, how did they get there in the first place?
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Agree.
And that history continues into the afterlife judgment/evaluation in the Age of Restoration.
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
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shepherdsword
Active Member
When Was the Bible Canon Finalized?
Old Testament Canon:
- Likely recognized by the Jewish community by around 200 BC to 100 AD.
- Jesus and the apostles quote from the Hebrew Scriptures as authoritative.
New Testament Canon:
- Early Christians used apostolic writings right away, but the canon wasn’t officially "closed" all at once.
- Muratorian Fragment (~170 AD) shows early list of accepted NT books.
- Church Fathers like Irenaeus, Athanasius, and Origen helped shape consensus.
- Athanasius' Easter Letter (367 AD) lists all 27 books of the NT as we know them.
- Synods/Councils (e.g., Council of Carthage in 397 AD) confirmed the canon.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
There was no Bible until the 1600s.
The KJV was published in 1611 AD
The original claim inferred that the Bible was available prior to the canon. (after the Tower of Babel)
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There was no Bible until the 1600s.
The KJV was published in 1611 AD
You need to go back to page one to follow the context leading to my statement. (which occurred on page two)
The original claim inferred that the Bible was available prior to the canon. (after the Tower of Babel)
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shepherdsword
Active Member
I did a drive by and saw this
I simply pointed out when the canon was actually completed. I didn't mention the Wycliffe in the 1380s or the Tyndale, Matthew,Geneva and Bishops in the 1500s but I will now. Claiming there was no bible until the 1600s to refute a claim it was available just after the tower of Babel is still incorrect. I don't agree with everything the OPs says in the thread but his opening has some good points.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
My point is that the Bible wasn't available to the masses until the 1600s.
As I understand it, the Wycliffe, Tyndale, Matthew (?) and Geneva weren't in possession of the general public.
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shepherdsword
Active Member
Only 10-25% were literate in the 1500s....it increased to over 50% in the 1600s. Literacy rate for the time of the tower of babel?
Estimated literacy rate: 1% or less of the population.
- Reading and writing were the domain of scribes, who trained for years.
- Most people were illiterate farmers, laborers, or herders.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Agree. That further supports my statement.
Possession of a Bible is of little value to the illiterate.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
The scriptures were in "canon" by the 4th century (AD).
The first bible was created before 400 AD
The first english bible was put in text in 1382
Behold
Well-Known Member
Im not a bead twisting Mary worshiping carnal Catholic, who practices reciting the same prayer, over and over.
My prayer and praise relationship with God is based on legitamate continuing worship and conversation with God, that is not "rote prayer" and "memiorized words".
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