If you’re a Christian and you support the modern geopolitical state of Israel, you deny that Christ is the Messiah. It's that simple.

The Gospel of Christ · Apr 7, 2025

marks said:
Matthew 19:28 KJV
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Here is just one, when will this be fulfilled?

Much love!

You’re quoting Matthew 19:28 as if Jesus was promising a future geopolitical restoration of ethnic Israel — but that’s not what He meant, and the rest of the New Testament doesn’t support that fantasy either. “In the regeneration” is not a coded phrase for some Zionist golden age or a reboot of the old covenant system. The word Jesus used — palingenesia — literally refers to spiritual rebirth. Paul uses the same word in Titus 3:5 to describe salvation through the Holy Spirit. That’s the regeneration. The New Covenant. The birth of the Church. Not a future land deal.

And when Jesus said He would sit on the throne of His glory — He wasn’t talking about some postponed political throne in Tel Aviv. Hebrews 1:3 says He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Ephesians 2:6 says we are seated with Him in the heavenly places. That’s not future prophecy. That’s present reality. So if you're still waiting for Jesus to be enthroned, you’ve already missed what God has actually done.

As for the apostles “judging the twelve tribes of Israel,” the New Testament makes it clear who Israel is. Romans 9:6 says not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel. Galatians 3:29 says if you are in Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 6:16 calls the Church the “Israel of God.” Ephesians 2:19–20 says the household of God is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone. That’s the fulfillment. That’s the real Israel. Not a modern nation-state that rejects Christ.

So no, this isn’t about twelve guys on golden chairs in downtown Jerusalem ruling over ethnic tribes in a Zionist dreamworld. It’s about the apostles’ authority over the true covenant people of God — the Body of Christ. The real thrones are spiritual, the real judgment is through the Word, and the real Israel is already gathered. You’re not waiting for fulfillment — you’re rejecting it.

What you're doing is trying to glue Jesus onto a broken old covenant system that He already fulfilled and made obsolete. You’re trying to fit the Messiah into a future that doesn’t exist — because the kingdom is already here, and it’s not of this world. If you think Jesus came to hit pause on His throne until modern Israel gets its act together, you don’t believe the Gospel. You believe Scofield. Or worse — you’re dragging Talmudic theology into the Church disguised as prophecy.

If Christ is the fulfillment of the covenants — and He is — then there’s nothing left for Israel outside of Him. And if you're preaching that God still owes something to those who reject the Son, then you’re not preaching salvation by grace through faith. You’re preaching a gospel of ethnic privilege, land worship, and covenant confusion.

And that’s not Christianity. It’s a golden calf in a study Bible.

Wrangler · Apr 7, 2025

If you’re a Christian and you support the modern geopolitical state of Israel, you deny that Christ is the Messiah. It's that simple.

The Gospel of Christ said:
If you reject Jesus Christ and wait for another messiah, you're not neutral — you're preparing the world for the Antichrist, the son of Satan.

The Gospel of Christ said:
And if you're a Christian who defends that (and the Rothschilds' manufactured state of Israel), you're not courageous or compassionate — you're spiritually sedated and complicit in betrayal.

Lot of accusations there. I believe Jesus is the Messiah AND support the State of Israel. Further, telling you is courageous AND compassionate to the people in Israel.

The Gospel of Christ · Apr 7, 2025

Wrangler said:
Lot of accusations there. I believe Jesus is the Messiah AND support the State of Israel. Further, telling you is courageous AND compassionate to the people in Israel.

Its absolutely exhausting.. They say they believe Jesus is the Messiah, and yet they support a modern political state that openly rejects Him — as if the Son of God is still on hold, waiting for Tel Aviv to recognize Him before He can fulfill His mission. But if you think Jesus is the Messiah and still believe there’s a divine plan unfolding through a nation that denies Him, then you don’t know what “Messiah” means. You literally don’t know who, or what "Israel"even is.

Israel isn’t a flag. It isn’t a government. It isn’t a bloodline, land or a border on a map. According to Scripture, Israel is the Body of Christ — those in Him by grace through faith. “If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” (Gal. 3:29) “Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” (Rom. 9:6) “He has made the first covenant obsolete.” (Heb. 8:13) This is not symbolic. It’s not poetic. It’s Gospel reality.

So when you cling to a secular state and call it “chosen,” you’re not honoring God — you’re standing in the shadow of a torn veil, desperately trying to stitch it back together with Scofield’s notes, Darby’s delusions, and Falwell’s war theology. You’re not defending God’s people at all — you’re defending a golden calf with a military budget.

You've been led to think it’s loyalty. You think it’s faith. But it’s betrayal in a flag-wrapped disguise. Jesus doesn’t need tanks, drones, or political lobbyists to fulfill prophecy. He already did — on a cross, with a crown of thorns, not a charter from the UN. The Kingdom of God isn’t coming with a military parade. It already came in blood, and it’s not of this world. So unless you're ready to say Christ failed and God has a backup plan, it's time to admit: the real Israel is already here. And it’s not hiding behind a wall — it’s carrying a cross.

Dash RipRock · Apr 7, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
It’s like some cosmic joke: the people of God forgot they’re the people of God…

There is Israel according to the flesh and then there is the spiritual Israel which are gentiles who have been born again and grafted in

Two totally different people groups as we see in Romans 11:14-28 making all this arguing back and forth a complete waste of time. Actually, Christians should be provoking the Jews to jealousy and bringing them to faith in Jesus... instead of attacking them which pleases satan (they are beloved - Romans 11:28)

Romans 11:12-15 - Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

It's sad that so many of those who say they love the Lord and are believers are racist against the Jews.

'Ol Adolf would be proud!

AngelicArcher · Apr 8, 2025

I have to say some of the attitudes toward Israel and the Jews that proudly display themselves in this thread is shocking.

Especially when what is obviously overlooked in those behaviors is that God,The Word,who became flesh and dwelt among us as Emmanuel, meaning,God with us, was prophesied as Messiah in Jewish theology. And arrived in the world as one born into a Jewish family related to King David.

So,all this effort to extricate Israel and the Jews from any relationship to Yeshua bin Joseph,Aka,Jesus Christ,aka Emmanuel,so to claim we "Christians" are Israel and Israel and the Jews are removed from the equation is shameful.

And as an aside, the Schofield-isms that were injected into this discussion is just gobbledygook.

We're suppose to be discussing Scripture, when Jewish Jesus is The Word of God that breathed life into the words on the page.

Instead? We have this thread with these injections that make claims about the State of Israel and how Jews aren't really Jews.

Lord!

The Gospel of Christ · Apr 8, 2025

The Scofield Delusion: How the Church Became a Weapon Against Christ

You think you're helping God's people.
You think you're standing with “Israel”.
But here's the truth — and it’s going to hurt.

If you believe God still has a separate covenant with the modern nation-state of Israel —
You’ve been deceived by Satan.

If you’re a ‘Christian’ and you believe the Judaens are still “God’s chosen people” apart from Christ —
You’ve been deceived by Satan.

If you believe Jesus came, was rejected, and now has to wait for another chance —
You’ve been deceived by Satan.

The cross was not Plan B.
The Church is not a parenthesis.
And modern Israel is not the fulfillment.

Jesus is.

And if not for Scofield, Darby, Falwell, and the rest of Satan’s scribes…
You would’ve known that.
Clearly. Instinctively. Immediately.
The way a Christian in 1790 would’ve — before the charts, before the footnotes, before the propaganda.

But you’ve been raised in an age of deception —trained to read study notes before Scripture,
to fear man’s curses more than God’s truth,
and to bless those who blaspheme the Son of God.

They didn’t confuse it in 1790.
You wouldn’t have either.
But Scofield did. Falwell did. And now the Church has amnesia.

If you walked into a room full of devout, Bible-studying Christians in the 1700s — Reformed, Orthodox, Puritan, even early Baptists or Catholics — and told them that "Jews who reject Jesus are still “God’s chosen people,” they would have looked at you like you had completely lost your mind. Some would've been angry and called you a heretic (because you’re denying core Gospel doctrine), and others would've correctly called you a blasphemer (because you’re suggesting that God honors rejection of His own Son).

Why? simple..

Because for 1,800 years, the universal teaching of the Church — from the early church fathers through the Reformers and beyond — was that:
Christ fulfilled the covenant.
The Church is the true Israel.
Those who reject Christ are outside the promises, no matter their bloodline.

They believed:
Jesus is the fulfillment of all God’s promises to Israel (2 Corinthians 1:20).
Those in Christ — Jew or Gentile — are Abraham’s seed (Galatians 3:29).
There is no other covenant apart from the new covenant in His blood (Hebrews 8:13).
The Church is the continuation and expansion of true Israel (Romans 9:6; Ephesians 2:12–19; Galatians 6:16).

Without the Dispensationalist brainwashing, you would’ve opened your Bible and said,
“Oh, the Judeans? Yeah, yea — those are the people who rejected the Messiah.
They’re not Israel anymore. They’re just lost.
Those in Christ are Israel. It says that right here in Scripture, see?”

You would’ve known that you — the one in Christ — are the real “chosen people”.

That's the big secret: CHRISTIANS ARE ISRAEL — and you don’t even know it. Because for 100 years, you’ve been deceived on a Biblical level by Satan himself. Deceived into handing over your birthright. Deceived into defending those who mock your Messiah. Deceived into marching the world toward WWIII and total destruction while the Devil laughs in the halls of Hell.

This isn’t what God wants.
This is what Satan wants.
And you’ve been brainwashed — completely — to help him make it happen.

The reason they ramped up the Scofield delusion in the 1950s wasn’t theology — it was warfare. By then, America had become Satan’s favorite playground: nuclear bombs, supersonic jets, mind control via television, endless money, and a gullible Church ready to trade the cross for a flag. That’s when the devil turned the pulpit into a weapons lab. He handed out Scofield Bibles like candy, bought pastors with Zionist funding, and installed false prophets in every living room through radio and TV.

And the Church? She didn’t resist — she bowed.

The Gospel was hijacked and rewritten into a geopolitical fanfic where Jesus takes a backseat, and war becomes worship. Where blessing a Christ-rejecting nation becomes the greatest commandment. Where the Body of Christ is forgotten, and missiles are launched in the name of prophecy.

Jerry Falwell didn’t just preach sermons — he ran political campaigns for Satan.
Hal Lindsey didn’t just write books — he programmed the minds of a generation.
John Hagee didn’t just build a church — he built an altar to Mammon and called it “supporting Israel.”

And behind it all?
The enemy laughs.
Because he got the Church of Jesus Christ — the Bride washed in blood —
to pour out her worship on a beast made of tanks, maps, and unbelief.

This was never about theology.
It was about power.
And the Christians of America — the very people called to carry the Gospel of peace —
had now been trained to pray for war.

Just stop and think about it.

Think about how badly these televangelist-demons have misled the Church — on purpose.
How they rewrote the story.
How they forged the Gospel into a war map.
How they convinced you to hand over your identity, your inheritance, and your King.

And to make it plain — I’m going to break it down in a way so simple, a child could understand:

It’s like someone forging your name on your father’s will, claiming your inheritance… and you defend them in court because they told you they were “special.”

It’s like the King invites you to sit with Him on His throne — but instead you get off, kneel to someone who spit in His face, and call it “honor.”

It’s like reaching the foot of the cross, being forgiven, born again… and then someone walks up and says, “Actually, this wasn’t for you. This was for us first.” And you’ve been brainwashed to believe them.

It’s like Jesus signs over His entire inheritance into your account… and you transfer it to a man who cursed Him and says He’s burning in hell — because Scofield told you he had the right last name.

It’s like receiving the living Gospel of Jesus Christ — and then trading it in for a dusty, bloodless promise from 3,000 years ago to a people who want nothing to do with Him.

That’s how deep the Satanic deception goes.

Every promise. Every covenant. Every blessing —
They are all YES and AMEN in Him — or they are nothing at all.

And here’s what should break your heart:
You’ve been tricked into denying that Christ finished the work.
You’ve been tricked into thinking they are the chosen ones —
when you are.

You are the one in Christ.
You are the one covered in His blood.
You are the one grafted into the promise.
YOU are Israel.

But Satan convinced you to give it all away.
To hand your birthright to a people who deny the Son of God —
and to call it “obedience.”

To support those who say Jesus is a fraud —
and to call it “faith.”

To bless a kingdom of unbelief —
and to call it “standing with God.”

You're not helping the Gospel.
You're helping the enemy of Christ.
And the Devil is laughing.
Because he got you to betray your King,
surrender your identity,
and call it “Christianity.”

In the name of Jesus Christ — wake up.

Jesus didn’t die so a bloodline could get some land.
He died to raise the dead — to tear the veil — to make you His dwelling place.
Not to rebuild the old… but to unleash the new.
A new covenant.
A new creation.
A new people — born of Spirit, not flesh.

And if you’re still waiting on Israel... You’re not clinging to faith —
You’re clinging to a corpse still nailed to a covenant Christ already buried.

You’ve turned your back on the empty tomb
To kneel before a border drawn in unbelief.
You’ve traded the risen King
For a flag, a bloodline, a war machine — and a lie.

You’re not waiting on God —
You’re openly rejecting what He already finished.

You’re worshiping the shadows He came to destroy.
You’re holding a canceled contract
and calling it the Gospel.

But the Kingdom of God doesn’t come with maps and missiles.
It doesn’t wave a flag.
And it doesn’t bow to men who spit on the cross.

It already came — in blood.
It already reigns — in power.
And it already calls — by name.

So stop waiting.
Stop watching the grave of a covenant that’s long dead.
Stop blessing what God has rejected.
And stop denying the One who fulfilled it all.

Because Jesus isn’t waiting on Israel.
He’s waiting on you.
To wake up.
To repent.
To stop defending unbelief in His name.
To stop calling darkness “light.”

And this time —
He’s not coming to be rejected.
He’s coming to reign.

The Gospel of Christ · Apr 8, 2025

AngelicArcher said:
I have to say some of the attitudes toward Israel and the Jews that proudly display themselves in this thread is shocking.

Especially when what is obviously overlooked in those behaviors is that God,The Word,who became flesh and dwelt among us as Emmanuel, meaning,God with us, was prophesied as Messiah in Jewish theology. And arrived in the world as one born into a Jewish family related to King David.

So,all this effort to extricate Israel and the Jews from any relationship to Yeshua bin Joseph,Aka,Jesus Christ,aka Emmanuel,so to claim we "Christians" are Israel and Israel and the Jews are removed from the equation is shameful.

And as an aside, the Schofield-isms that were injected into this discussion is just gobbledygook.

We're suppose to be discussing Scripture, when Jewish Jesus is The Word of God that breathed life into the words on the page.

Instead? We have this thread with these injections that make claims about the State of Israel and how Jews aren't really Jews.

Lord!

Everything in this thread is backed by Scripture — straight from the Gospel.
If you want to challenge it, you’ll first have to answer one question:

Who is Israel?
Because it’s not a bloodline.
It’s not a border.
And it’s not a nation on a map.

According to Jesus Christ Himself —
Israel is found in Him,
not in the land,
not in the flesh,
and not in those who reject the Son of God.

You're missing the point — and proving it in real time.

No one here is denying that Jesus was born into a Jewish lineage. He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the fulfillment of every promise. But He didn’t come to eternally affirm a physical bloodline. He came to fulfill the law, establish the New Covenant in His blood, and redefine Israel around Himself — not ethnicity, not geography.

You say we’re “extricating” Israel from Jesus. But what we’re actually doing is centering Israel on Christ, where Scripture puts it.

If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise — Galatians 3:29
Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel — Romans 9:6
He has made the first covenant obsolete — Hebrews 8:13
There is neither Jew nor Gentile... for you are all one in Christ Jesus — Galatians 3:28

You’re clinging to a definition of Israel based on flesh, when the New Testament consistently defines it in Spirit, through Christ. That’s not replacement. That’s fulfillment. That’s what Jesus meant when He said, “This is My blood of the new covenant.”

And respectfully — dismissing Scofield as "gobbledygook" is not an argument. It’s a refusal to acknowledge the theological system that shaped your worldview — whether you realize it or not. We are discussing Scripture. You just don’t like what the Scriptures say when read without the filter of Dispensationalism.

If Jesus is the center of all covenant fulfillment, then the real question isn’t whether we’re removing Jews from the equation. The question is whether you’re removing Jesus from the definition of Israel.

Because if He is not the definition, then you’ve just separated the Messiah from the people He came to save.

It’s not about ancestry.
It’s not about land.
It’s about Him.

The Gospel of Christ · Apr 8, 2025

Dash RipRock said:
There is Israel according to the flesh and then there is the spiritual Israel which are gentiles who have been born again and grafted in

Two totally different people groups as we see in Romans 11:14-28 making all this arguing back and forth a complete waste of time. Actually, Christians should be provoking the Jews to jealousy and bringing them to faith in Jesus... instead of attacking them which pleases satan (they are beloved - Romans 11:28)

Romans 11:12-15 - Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

It's sad that so many of those who say they love the Lord and are believers are racist against the Jews.

'Ol Adolf would be proud!

All of Romans 11 through the lens of Dispensationalism has already been covered in the pages of this thread.

Lizbeth · Apr 8, 2025

marks said:
Oh yes you are. You are claiming that the ones to whom God made a promise, will not receive that promise, because God changed His mind about who would be the recipients to the promise.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to believe God over you. God doesn't make Himself a liar, it's people who try to do that.

Much love!

Everything that has been foreseen and foretold in scripture is not a "promise" for good as such. But God is watching over His word to perform it, whether for good or evil. The "gathering" that has been prophesied has been and continues to be fulfilled any time a Jewish person receives and is thus gathered to the Messiah who is Christ Jesus. And Gentiles too. But I consider that there may be fulfillments in the natural realm as well........just that things in the natural realm of this world are a mixture of both good and evil and are not "perfect", ie, not spiritual/heavenly.

It's so important to have our theology straight as I believe the author of this thread is doing rightly. But we must not forget that though the Jews are sometimes enemies for the gospel's sake, that as touching the election they are still loved on account of the faithful patriarchs. It's not our place to judge or condemn them. Instead we are to be merciful......remembering they are lost souls who live and do as lost souls do, as we all once were. And I do believe they occupy a rather unique (and unenviable) position in this world.....Paul wrote if the root is holy the whole lump is holy....there is a way in which they are still God's chosen people, though the Lord has divorced them as it were, they may be received back to Him through the gospel. We need to acknowledge God's sovereignty in these things.....

Rom 11:27-37

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The Lord kind of equalizes things between Jew and Gentile here, so as scripture also says we must not be high minded against the Jews, but humbly fear God lest we also be branches that get broken off.

I think it's good to be aware of the Jews and the need to evangelize them, because it seemed the church had largely forgotten all about them for a long time..........but the devil and flesh has unfortunately gotten hold of it too and this has led to a lot of deception and error. But we must not be in the flesh. If we idolize the Jews and Israel we are in the flesh. If we judge/condemn them we are also in the flesh.

Wrangler · Apr 8, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
They say they believe Jesus is the Messiah, and yet they support a modern political state that openly rejects Him

Two things can be true:

Religious. Believing the Anointed is Jesus.
Political. Believing Zionism is good.

As far as the part in red, openly rejecting him, it could be different "they."

Marvelloustime · Apr 8, 2025

amigo de christo said:
People would be so much better off
had they simply read the bible for themselves . No foot notes , no etc .
We has many many off teachings and concepts floating all over the place my friend .
You see those four statments in dark black
CHRIST JESUS nor any of the apostels ever once taught that . Rather odd dont ya think .
Paul didnt go around to all them synagogues doing as john haggee and scores of others say or imply .
YOU SEE the true apostels KNEW
OF the absolute dire necessity to BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST
and That if one , whether jew or gentile, Rejects HIM , WELL its deadly for them .
There is only ONE ISRAEL , ONE JERUSALEM of GOD . Its heavenly
and GOD and the lamb are THE TEMPLE .
Many are gonna wail on the DAY of the LORD for lying to the jews
and to many church folks too .
This is very deadly what i seen some of them men say . I would RUN in the opposite direction
of hagee and scores and scores of others . You see the nar realm , YOU EXPOSE THAT REALM
as well as THE R DOUBLE C
and scores of others playing christian , BUT AINT christain at all . we gots lots of wolves n wool
and they have made much money with best selling books of fables too .

@amigo de christo

Lizbeth · Apr 8, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
Everything in this thread is backed by Scripture — straight from the Gospel.
If you want to challenge it, you’ll first have to answer one question:

Who is Israel?
Because it’s not a bloodline.
It’s not a border.
And it’s not a nation on a map.

According to Jesus Christ Himself —
Israel is found in Him,
not in the land,
not in the flesh,
and not in those who reject the Son of God.

You're missing the point — and proving it in real time.

No one here is denying that Jesus was born into a Jewish lineage. He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the fulfillment of every promise. But He didn’t come to eternally affirm a physical bloodline. He came to fulfill the law, establish the New Covenant in His blood, and redefine Israel around Himself — not ethnicity, not geography.

You say we’re “extricating” Israel from Jesus. But what we’re actually doing is centering Israel on Christ, where Scripture puts it.

If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise — Galatians 3:29
Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel — Romans 9:6
He has made the first covenant obsolete — Hebrews 8:13
There is neither Jew nor Gentile... for you are all one in Christ Jesus — Galatians 3:28

You’re clinging to a definition of Israel based on flesh, when the New Testament consistently defines it in Spirit, through Christ. That’s not replacement. That’s fulfillment. That’s what Jesus meant when He said, “This is My blood of the new covenant.”

And respectfully — dismissing Scofield as "gobbledygook" is not an argument. It’s a refusal to acknowledge the theological system that shaped your worldview — whether you realize it or not. We are discussing Scripture. You just don’t like what the Scriptures say when read without the filter of Dispensationalism.

If Jesus is the center of all covenant fulfillment, then the real question isn’t whether we’re removing Jews from the equation. The question is whether you’re removing Jesus from the definition of Israel.

Because if He is not the definition, then you’ve just separated the Messiah from the people He came to save.

It’s not about ancestry.
It’s not about land.
It’s about Him.

Amen. We sure do need to discern between "Israel after the flesh" and the "Israel of God".

But I think one would have to be hard-hearted and unmerciful to be against them returning to the land of Israel after the horrors of the holocaust. The Lord is the one who raises and lowers kings and kingdoms in His sovereignty. I think their return has been prophesied, just that we must not assume it is all for good. It's "good" for the Jews to have a measure of safety and security in this world, while it lasts, and if they can obtain it, but if the Antichrist false messiah comes to reign from a newly re-built Temple, that would not be good, but hugely deceptive and evil. That's why it's so important not to idolize the Jews/Israel, because it can lead to following them in their error. We must not be unequally yoked with them....they are lost souls/unbelievers. Jesus said if ye have not the Son ye have not the Father either.

Wrangler · Apr 8, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
Who is Israel?
Because it’s not a bloodline.
It’s not a border.
And it’s not a nation on a map.

And that is where you are wrong.

Not sure what the motive is for this political matter to be displaced with one's religious beliefs. It would be nice if you could even acknowledge the political reality as a factor of consideration. Indeed, Israel is a border, a nation on a map, no less than any other. In addition, it has religious significance also. Jesus was from the nation of Israel.

The Gospel of Christ · Apr 8, 2025

Wrangler said:
Two things can be true:

Religious. Believing the Anointed is Jesus.

Political. Believing Zionism is good.

As far as the part in red, openly rejecting him, it could be different "they."

You say “two things can be true” — that you believe Jesus is the Messiah and that political Zionism is good. But that’s a contradiction, not a balance.

Why? Because you're blessing a modern political state that explicitly rejects the very Messiah you claim is Lord.

There is no biblical category where God commands His people to support any system — religious or political — that denies His Son.

That’s not “two truths.” That’s divided loyalty.

Jesus said:
“Whoever is not with me is against me.” (Matthew 12:30)
“No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)
“The Kingdom will be taken away from you and given to those who will bear its fruit.” (Matthew 21:43)

Paul said:
“If they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted back in.” (Romans 11:23) — Meaning they’re not part of the tree while rejecting Christ.

Peter said:
“There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

So again I ask: How can you claim loyalty to Jesus while actively blessing a political system that rejects His name, His Lordship, and His Gospel?

God doesn’t have two peoples. He has one body, united in Christ (Ephesians 2:14-16).
And He doesn’t run two kingdoms — one political, one spiritual. He runs one Kingdom, ruled by His Son.

Supporting Zionism as a divine mandate isn’t biblical. It’s Scofieldian.
And that’s the problem.

marks · Apr 8, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
You’re quoting Matthew 19:28 as if Jesus was promising a future geopolitical restoration of ethnic Israel — but that’s not what He meant, and the rest of the New Testament doesn’t support that fantasy either. “In the regeneration” is not a coded phrase for some Zionist golden age or a reboot of the old covenant system. The word Jesus used — palingenesia — literally refers to spiritual rebirth. Paul uses the same word in Titus 3:5 to describe salvation through the Holy Spirit. That’s the regeneration. The New Covenant. The birth of the Church. Not a future land deal.

And when Jesus said He would sit on the throne of His glory — He wasn’t talking about some postponed political throne in Tel Aviv. Hebrews 1:3 says He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Ephesians 2:6 says we are seated with Him in the heavenly places. That’s not future prophecy. That’s present reality. So if you're still waiting for Jesus to be enthroned, you’ve already missed what God has actually done.

As for the apostles “judging the twelve tribes of Israel,” the New Testament makes it clear who Israel is. Romans 9:6 says not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel. Galatians 3:29 says if you are in Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 6:16 calls the Church the “Israel of God.” Ephesians 2:19–20 says the household of God is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ as the cornerstone. That’s the fulfillment. That’s the real Israel. Not a modern nation-state that rejects Christ.

So no, this isn’t about twelve guys on golden chairs in downtown Jerusalem ruling over ethnic tribes in a Zionist dreamworld. It’s about the apostles’ authority over the true covenant people of God — the Body of Christ. The real thrones are spiritual, the real judgment is through the Word, and the real Israel is already gathered. You’re not waiting for fulfillment — you’re rejecting it.

What you're doing is trying to glue Jesus onto a broken old covenant system that He already fulfilled and made obsolete. You’re trying to fit the Messiah into a future that doesn’t exist — because the kingdom is already here, and it’s not of this world. If you think Jesus came to hit pause on His throne until modern Israel gets its act together, you don’t believe the Gospel. You believe Scofield. Or worse — you’re dragging Talmudic theology into the Church disguised as prophecy.

If Christ is the fulfillment of the covenants — and He is — then there’s nothing left for Israel outside of Him. And if you're preaching that God still owes something to those who reject the Son, then you’re not preaching salvation by grace through faith. You’re preaching a gospel of ethnic privilege, land worship, and covenant confusion.

And that’s not Christianity. It’s a golden calf in a study Bible.

So your answer to all these prophecies is, wait for it, God didn't really mean the words He said.

I'm not buying it. This is just one more person telling me, Yeah, it says that, but it doesn't mean that. Well, the fact is, God means what He says, whether or not you accept that.

I don't need long explanations, I only need to quote the Bible, it says what it says.

Much love!

The Gospel of Christ · Apr 8, 2025

Wrangler said:
And that is where you are wrong.

View attachment 61163

Not sure what the motive is for this political matter to be displaced with one's religious beliefs. It would be nice if you could even acknowledge the political reality as a factor of consideration. Indeed, Israel is a border, a nation on a map, no less than any other. In addition, it has religious significance also. Jesus was from the nation of Israel.

Yes, there is a modern nation-state called Israel, and no one is denying its political existence. It has borders, cities, a government, and international recognition like any other modern country. But that’s not what I was talking about. When I asked, “Who is Israel?” I wasn’t speaking in geopolitical terms. I was speaking theologically, covenantally — the way the New Testament does. I was asking who God considers to be His covenant people.

Because according to the Gospel — and this is where it gets uncomfortable for those who’ve confused nationalism with theology — Israel is not a bloodline. It’s not a flag. And it’s not a country on a map. In the New Testament, Israel is redefined through Christ. Paul says in Romans 9:6, “Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” In other words, being born ethnically Jewish doesn’t make someone part of God’s true covenant people. That’s not racism or replacement theology — that’s Paul, a Jew himself, speaking with apostolic authority.

Again in Galatians 3:7, Paul writes, “Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.” Not those born into a tribe. Not those with citizenship in the modern state. Not those living behind a wall in the Middle East. But those who have faith. And in verse 29, he makes it even more explicit: “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” The inheritance, the covenant, the identity of “Israel” is now fulfilled in Christ— and extended to Jew and Gentile alike through faith.

This isn’t an obscure theological opinion. It’s the central message of the Gospel: that Christ didn’t come to protect a national identity — He came to create a new humanity. Ephesians 2 says that Jesus “has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier… by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two.” That’s not dual-track theology. That’s one people, one body, one Israel — in Him.

Yes, Jesus was born in ancient Israel — under Roman occupation, by the way. But He didn’t come to restore a kingdom on earth. He came to inaugurate a Kingdom that is “not of this world” (John 18:36). He wept over Jerusalem and said, “Your house is left to you desolate” (Matthew 23:38). He wasn’t predicting a restored national order. He was issuing a divine judgment on a city that rejected its Messiah.

So let’s be clear. If someone wants to talk about the modern state of Israel as a political entity, fine. That’s a secular discussion. But when people start baptizing that nation with divine status, quoting Genesis 12 out of context, or pretending that supporting a government that rejects Christ is somehow obedience to God — then we’ve left the Gospel behind and entered Scofield’s fantasy world.

Side note: The modern state of Israel wasn’t born out of a divine miracle — it was born through British colonial policy (the Balfour Declaration), Rothschild family funding, and Zionist lobbying. Then Scofield took this political project and gave it spiritual packaging. The result? Millions of Christians now confuse a manmade state with a covenant God already fulfilled in Christ over 2,000 years ago.

The Gospel does not teach two peoples of God. It doesn’t offer two covenants. It doesn’t tell us to split our loyalty between the cross and a flag. It says plainly: “There is one body, one Spirit, one hope… one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all.” (Ephesians 4:4–6). To say otherwise is not honoring God’s covenant — it’s denying its fulfillment.

So no, I wasn’t wrong. The map you posted may show a nation called Israel, but that is not the Israel of God. That is not the holy nation described in 1 Peter 2:9. That is not the people of promise Paul describes in Galatians. That is not the Kingdom Jesus came to establish.

You can worship a flag or you can worship the cross. But don’t confuse the two and call it Christianity.

The Gospel of Christ · Apr 8, 2025

marks said:
So your answer to all these prophecies is, wait for it, God didn't really mean the words He said.

I'm not buying it. This is just one more person telling me, Yeah, it says that, but it doesn't mean that. Well, the fact is, God means what He says, whether or not you accept that.

I don't need long explanations, I only need to quote the Bible, it says what it says.

Much love!

No — what I’m saying is that God meant exactly what He said.
But He didn’t say it in Scofield’s voice, and He didn’t say it to justify a 20th-century state founded by Rothschilds and guarded by nukes.
He said it in the language of covenant, spirit, and fulfillment — not land, bloodlines, and politics.

The problem isn’t that I’m saying ‘God didn’t mean it.’
The problem is, you don’t know what He meant — because you’ve been trained to read every prophecy through the lens of dispensationalist fantasy novels instead of the words of Jesus and the apostles.
That’s not faith. That’s fiction.

So yes, the Bible says what it says — and it says the Kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36).
It says Jesus is already enthroned (Hebrews 1:3).
It says the Church is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).
It says the Old Covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).
And it says if you’re in Christ, you’re Abraham’s seed — period (Galatians 3:29).”

You can keep quoting verses out of context to defend Scofield.
I’ll keep quoting verses in context to point to Jesus.

Wick Stick · Apr 8, 2025

The Gospel of Christ said:
For over 100 years, Dispensationalism has led Christians to believe that Christ did not fulfill the prophecies of the Old Testament, thus making the modern state of Israel a required piece in God’s unfinished plan — a doctrine completely at odds with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

They’ve been led to believe that Christians and Jews worship the same God — as if the only difference is that Jews just don’t accept Jesus as the Messiah. But that’s not a small difference — that’s the defining line between truth and total rejection of Christ. The god of modern Judaism explicitly rejects Christ, making it impossible to claim we worship the same God.

The Talmud says that Christ was a “sorcerer who is now burning in hell in a cauldron of boiling human excrement” (Gittin 57a). So they, Talmudic Jews, are openly anti-Christ. Their god doesn’t like Jesus Christ — in fact, he loathes him and everything he represents. These aren’t minor theological disagreements — they’re explicit rejections and blasphemies against Christ. Judaism doesn’t just deny Jesus as the Messiah; it curses him and teaches that his eternal punishment is absolutely justified.

Catching on yet?

They worship the antithesis of Jesus Christ — which would be THE ANTICHRIST, whose father is SATAN.

If we both follow the religion of Abraham, and you think that my God is “burning in hell,” then who is your god? It sure as damnation itself isn’t the Christian God. No — that would be impossible. It’s the opposite of the Christian God. And he who is the opposite of the Christian God, is the devil.

Jesus called the Jews “the children of the devil” (John 8:44) and to a Christian — Talmudic Jews are; all of them. To any true follower of Jesus Christ, Talmudic Judaism isn’t just a different religion — it’s the throne of Satan on Earth. It is the spiritual infrastructure of the Antichrist. It’s not about some wannabe satanists trying to put up a Baphomet statue at an elementary school; — it’s Judaism itself that is the global church of Satan. They are the real deal.

Let’s stop pretending. If you reject Jesus Christ and wait for another messiah, you're not neutral — you're preparing the world for the Antichrist, the son of Satan. And if you're a Christian who defends that (and the Rothschilds' manufactured state of Israel), you're not courageous or compassionate — you're spiritually sedated and complicit in betrayal. Whatever you claim, you are not a follower of the Gospel of Jesus Christ — you're in open rebellion against him. Jesus called his followers "the true Israel". It's not a land. It's not a place. It’s the Body of Christ. According to Scripture, the true "Israel" is made up of those who follow Jesus Christ.

According to Jesus, physical descent from Abraham does not guarantee being a “child of God”. Those who reject Jesus are rejecting the very God Abraham believed in, which means they are not spiritually Abraham’s children—instead, they are following the devil's deception.

This applies to all people, not just the Jewish leaders Jesus was speaking to. Faith in Jesus, not ancestry, is what makes someone a "child of God".

According to Jesus' words in John 8:39-44, anyone who claims to be a descendant of Abraham but rejects him (Jesus Christ) is not truly a child of Abraham in a spiritual sense—instead, they are following the devil’s deception.

Jesus’ Main Points in John 8:39-44

Being a physical descendant of Abraham is not enough

“If you were Abraham’s children, you would do what Abraham did.” (John 8:39)

True children of Abraham follow Abraham’s faith—and Abraham believed in God’s promises (Genesis 15:6).

Since Jesus is the fulfillment of those promises, rejecting Jesus means not following Abraham’s faith.

Rejecting Jesus means rejecting God

“If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God.” (John 8:42)

Jesus makes it clear: If someone truly knows God, they will accept him.

Those who reject Jesus are not of God and are of the devil, regardless of their lineage.

So, according to Jesus:

Jews (or any people, for that matter) are not automatically “God's chosen people” just because of their physical lineage. Instead, faith in Jesus Christ is what defines who is truly "God's chosen people" in His eyes.

In Jesus’ eyes, being part of God's chosen people is not about being born into a certain ethnic group or family (such as being a descendant of Abraham) but about accepting Jesus as the Messiah.

In the context of Jesus' teachings, those who reject Him, regardless of being descendants of Abraham (including the Jewish people), are not part of God's true, spiritual family. Faith in Jesus Christ is what makes someone part of "God’s chosen people", according to Jesus Himself.

I arrived to this thread ready to argue. But, everything you wrote here is completely reasonable. One of the better posts I've seen here to be honest.

Wick Stick · Apr 8, 2025

Berean said:
Judas wasn't foretold, Jesus' betrayal was. And Judas wasn't damned.

Judas is literally the only person the Bible outright tells us was damned. John 17:

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Wick Stick · Apr 8, 2025

marks said:
You are claiming that the ones to whom God made a promise, will not receive that promise, because God changed His mind about who would be the recipients to the promise.

This reply wasn't for me, so forgive me for butting in...

I don't see that God changed His mind at all. In Genesis, when God made His covenant with Abraham, He promised to give Abraham both a natural son AND to make him a "Father of Nations." That word "nations" is usually translated as Gentiles.

Salvation was always intended for Abraham's sons, both the natural and the adopted.

If you’re a Christian and you support the modern geopolitical state of Israel, you deny that Christ is the Messiah. It's that simple.

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