Jesus came to seek and to save THAT which was lost. - What was it that was lost?

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amadeus

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This is what happens to me when I listen to a sermon. I texted my wife. It says THAT instead of WHO. ???

Jesus came to seek and save that (THAT) which was lost. What was the THAT that he came to seek and to save?

The traditional translations use THAT. The modern translations use "the lost". BIG difference. !!! ???
Did the traditional translations get it right? If so, what was the THAT that was lost?

Luke 19:10 KJV
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

--- COMPARE ---

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

]
Was not LIFE lost? Did not Jesus come to make it available again to men?

Ge 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

They were ALIVE!

Ge 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They were warned!
Ge 3:6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

They ignored God's warning!

Ge 3:24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God blocked access to Life!

Joh 10:10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Jesus came to bring again that which was lost [LIFE], but even more abundantly (better?) than it had been before! Dead men walking until they received LIFE!
 

St. SteVen

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Was not LIFE lost? Did not Jesus come to make it available again to men?

...

Jesus came to bring again that which was lost [LIFE], but even more abundantly (better?) than it had been before! Dead men walking until they received LIFE!
Well yes, of course.
We can apply a generalized view here. But it seems to me that there may be more going on here.
I think the generalized view led to the modern translation. A committee decision. Camel = Horse built by committee

The traditional version translators saw something more here. Though they aren't making it entirely clear.

Did Jesus in fact come to seek and to save the lost? Were they hard to find? Needed to be sought out?
As if they were hiding among the main populace? Did Jesus need to discern which ones needed saving, and which ones didn't?

This reminds me of the poor interpretation of Matthew 5:17. (that it was about "the law" itself)
And the fiasco over the unpardonable sin. (blasphemy of the Spirit)

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

COMPARE

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

]
 
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amadeus

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Well yes, of course.
We can apply a generalized view here. But it seems to me that there may be more going on here.
I think the generalized view led to the modern translation. A committee decision. Camel = Horse built by committee

The traditional version translators saw something more here. Though they aren't making it entirely clear.

Did Jesus in fact come to seek and to save the lost? Were they hard to find? Needed to be sought out?
He came to give Life to the dead. Who was/is dead? Everyone who had not received Life anew. Don't make it more complicated than it is. Have not many men done just that?

Mt 8:22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
This reminds me of the poor interpretation of Matthew 5:17. (that it was about "the law" itself)
And the fiasco over the unpardonable sin. (blasphemy of the Spirit)

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

COMPARE

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

]
Do we need to have all of the answers to all the arguments and questions that men are able to find in order to follow Jesus? Will engaging in every difference of ideas on this or any forum bring us closer to God?

Mt 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mt 11:29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mt 11:30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
 

St. SteVen

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Do we need to have all of the answers to all the arguments and questions that men are able to find in order to follow Jesus? Will engaging in every difference of ideas on this or any forum bring us closer to God?
I think that if we discover that the standard answers are insufficient, that we will gain a DEEPER insight into being closer to God. The aforementioned Matthew 5:17 and the unpardonable sin are just two examples of such. And if church leaders got that wrong, what else did they get wrong? Look at my list of topics for a hint.

Isn't my tentative conclusion about righteousness as a possible interpretation to the traditional reading just as valid as your standard answer to the modern interpretation? Not sure why you are being so inflexible about this. ???

Are you hoping to halt discussion by claiming I am making this more complicated than it needs to be?

]
 

amadeus

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I think that if we discover that the standard answers are insufficient, that we will gain a DEEPER insight into being closer to God. The aforementioned Matthew 5:17 and the unpardonable sin are just two examples of such. And if church leaders got that wrong, what else did they get wrong? Look at my list of topics for a hint.
My answers are not at the moment insufficient for me. However, I strive to go to the lowest room daily emptying myself of all that I hold and believe regarding God and the things of God. Then at that lowest room my purpose is to let God refill me with changes or additions or subtractions as He will. Are there always any substantive changes in me as a result? No, but at times there have been. I do not look to church leaders for answers. At one time I know that I did, but that was long ago.
Isn't my tentative conclusion about righteousness as a possible interpretation to the traditional reading just as valid as your standard answer to the modern interpretation? Not sure why you are being so inflexible about this. ???
I really try not to be inflexible. On the contrary I have tried to listen to what people have to say if it is something I have not heard before. It is however rare that I hear anything really new... or anything that I have not already considered. Could I ever return to places I have been? I try to remain open to even that possibility for who am I to have decided what God wants from me in every instance and circumstance? Who is supposed to lead the way? Not me...!
Are you hoping to halt discussion by claiming I am making this more complicated than it needs to be?
No, but you have not brought up any new questions. On this forum most every topic, point of view or argument now pending has been discussed/argued/presented here before. For years I used to spend a lot of time here and on other forums engaged quite actively in such threads. I stopped doing much of that long ago. Do I believe that I have it all right and anyone with different beliefs is wrong? Certainly not, but on any one point, likely most everyone else, I believe that I am right.

If I need to be changed on something, I want God to change me. Is He not the One who will increase us when we are open to it?
 
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St. SteVen

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I keep coming back to this thought,
Jesus declared Zacchaeus to be a son of Abraham after his repentant vows.
"For..." [because] "... the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." - vs 10

Luke 19:9-10 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

--- COMPARE ---

Luke 19:9 NIV
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.

[
 

MatthewG

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The bride of Christ. Lead to the way the truth and the life
 

Ronald Nolette

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This is what happens to me when I listen to a sermon. I texted my wife. It says THAT instead of WHO. ???

Jesus came to seek and save that (THAT) which was lost. What was the THAT that he came to seek and to save?

The traditional translations use THAT. The modern translations use "the lost". BIG difference. !!! ???
Did the traditional translations get it right? If so, what was the THAT that was lost?

Luke 19:10 KJV
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

--- COMPARE ---

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

]
Easy, As Jesus Himself said, I am not come save for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 

St. SteVen

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Easy, As Jesus Himself said, I am not come save for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
That would limit the lost to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Furthermore, the verse says "that which was lost" (past tense) What do you make of that?
Jesus is saying that he came to save SOMETHING that WAS lost, not something that IS lost currently. (in His day)
As if to say, something was lost in the past that Jesus came to restore. What is it? What was lost?
What was lost, that Jesus came to save? (restore)

Luke 19:10 KJV
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

[
 

Ronald Nolette

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That would limit the lost to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Furthermore, the verse says "that which was lost" (past tense) What do you make of that?
Jesus is saying that he came to save SOMETHING that WAS lost, not something that IS lost currently. (in His day)
As if to say, something was lost in the past that Jesus came to restore. What is it? What was lost?
What was lost, that Jesus came to save? (restore)

Luke 19:10 KJV
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

[
Well it is not in the past tense as it seems but is in the 2nd perfect active participle. That is a much different connotation than the past.

One has to remember that until the Pharisees in Matt. 12 committed the unpardonable sin, Jesus came to announce He was Messiah and bringing the promised kingdom ot Israel.

After the unpardonable sin - Jesus then began to prepare the Apostle to build the church. In order for something to have become lost- it had to be "found" first. That was Israel, For as Paul wrote in Eph., Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world in the OT.

Teh passages I cited are simple and definitive to say what sheep Jesus was looking for at first.

After the unpardonable sin, Jesus then spoke of the gentiles:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
 

St. SteVen

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Well it is not in the past tense as it seems but is in the 2nd perfect active participle. That is a much different connotation than the past.
Wow.
So in Jude 1:3 we trust the translators, but in Luke 19:10 we don't.
Selective interpretation?

One has to remember that until the Pharisees in Matt. 12 committed the unpardonable sin, Jesus came to announce He was Messiah and bringing the promised kingdom ot Israel.

After the unpardonable sin - Jesus then began to prepare the Apostle to build the church. In order for something to have become lost- it had to be "found" first. That was Israel, For as Paul wrote in Eph., Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world in the OT.
That's news to me.
What was the unpardonable sin in your view? (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit)

[
 

Ronald Nolette

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Wow.
So in Jude 1:3 we trust the translators, but in Luke 19:10 we don't.
Selective interpretation?
No, just following the grammar in how it was written.

That's news to me.
What was the unpardonable sin in your view? (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit)
When you read Matthew 12 you see it was the national rejection of Jesus as Messiah on the basis Jesus was demon possessed. IN Matt. 12 Due to the Pharisees rejection, Jesus pronounced certain judgments against THAT specific generation.
 

St. SteVen

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When you read Matthew 12 you see it was the national rejection of Jesus as Messiah on the basis Jesus was demon possessed. IN Matt. 12 Due to the Pharisees rejection, Jesus pronounced certain judgments against THAT specific generation.
That's news to me. I've never heard that interpretation before. How is that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

[
 

Ronald Nolette

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That's news to me. I've never heard that interpretation before. How is that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

[
Blasphemy is a knowing railing accusation against someone.

The pharisees blasphemed the Spirit by saying that Jesus performed the Messianic miracle by the power of Beelzebub in stead of the Holy spirit.

Mark 3:28-30

King James Version

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

blasphēmeō (Key)

verb

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to speak reproachfully, rail at, revile, calumniate, blaspheme
  2. to be evil spoken of, reviled, railed at
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
†βλασφημέω blasphēméō, blas-fay-meh'-o; from G989; to vilify; specially, to speak impiously:—(speak) blaspheme(-er, -mously, -my), defame, rail on, revile, speak evil.
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
That's news to me. I've never heard that interpretation before. How is that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
Blasphemy is a knowing railing accusation against someone.

The pharisees blasphemed the Spirit by saying that Jesus performed the Messianic miracle by the power of Beelzebub in stead of the Holy spirit.
I agree.
I am surprised you replied with that. Most don't see that connection. Preferring the standard answer. (apologetic) Kudos.

[
 
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St. SteVen

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What was lost in the current religious system in Israel that Jesus would seek and save?

It seems they had sold themselves to legalism rather than to righteousness. Rescuing an animal that had fallen in a pit on the Sabbath was a big deal. (hush, hush) Jesus called them out on that.

Matthew 12:9-12 NIV
Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue,
10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there.
Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus,
they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
11 He said to them,
“If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath,
will you not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep!
Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

]
 

LittleTuneAlright

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Luke 19:10 KJV
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Could it be faith/belief?

Luke 18:8: "However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
 
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Reggie Belafonte

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The Jews were Lost ! heading down the wrong path ! as in Acts Stephen points it all out !
See that stupid so called Star, it's a mans works creation in fact ! but the Menorah that is the true symbol.
 

AngelicArcher

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This is what happens to me when I listen to a sermon. I texted my wife. It says THAT instead of WHO. ???

Jesus came to seek and save that (THAT) which was lost. What was the THAT that he came to seek and to save?

The traditional translations use THAT. The modern translations use "the lost". BIG difference. !!! ???
Did the traditional translations get it right? If so, what was the THAT that was lost?

Luke 19:10 KJV
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

--- COMPARE ---

Luke 19:10 NIV
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Lost​

ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi)​

Strong: G622

GK: G660

to destroy utterly; to kill, Mt. 2:13; to bring to nought, make void, 1 Cor. 1:19; to lose, be deprived of, Mt. 10:42; to be destroyed, perish, Mt. 9:17; to be put to death, to die, Mt. 26:52; to be lost, to stray, Mt. 10:6
 

Scott Downey

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Jesus come to seek “that” which was lost …reconciliation? Relationship? Then the question might be why did Jesus come to seek “that” when He was in communication with the Father: only doing what He sees the Father doing, and only saying what He only hears the Father saying. But He “restored” others unto relationship with the Father, reconciling others to the Father.

Maybe the reason other versions refer to a person is because of other text that says: He came to seek the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Exactly so.
Jesus came to seek and save the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Now who is of the true Israel and who is of the sheep of Christ?

John 10 tells us of the sheep, we have other scripture that tells us who is truly of Israel in Romans

Jesus the True Shepherd​

1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

Jesus the Good Shepherd​

7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came [a]before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is [c]mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep​

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in [d]doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [e]as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Renewed Efforts to Stone Jesus​

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and [f]believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

The Believers Beyond Jordan​

40 And He went away again beyond the Jordan to the place where John was baptizing at first, and there He stayed. 41 Then many came to Him and said, “John performed no sign, but all the things that John spoke about this Man were true.” 42 And many believed in Him there.