If you’re a Christian and you support the modern geopolitical state of Israel, you deny that Christ is the Messiah. It's that simple.
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Chrysostomos
New Member
In my view, Dispensationalism often has the opposite effect of what you suggest. Rather than counteracting antisemitism, it can, on the contrary, provoke it or even create new forms of prejudice. Allow me to explain with examples from real life that I’ve observed.
I personally know many cases where Christians lived their lives without ever thinking about Jews, let alone Israel. For them, these were distant and irrelevant topics. But then came the internet, YouTube, social media, and hordes of very active Protestant Zionists who began aggressively "brainwashing" people, insisting that Jews must be loved, Israel supported, and that we should feel ashamed and tearfully repent for the Holocaust and Jewish pogroms. For many, this feels like an invasion of personal space, like an intrusive ideology that has no bearing on their faith or daily life.
Then, the previously indifferent person starts investigating: "What’s this all about? What Israel? What do Jews have to do with it? What’s the Holocaust? What Jewish pogroms? What have I already done wrong to the Jews?" And here begins a chain reaction. This devout Christian, who used to simply pray and live their life, learns about the Third Reich and Adolf Hitler. After that, they read "Mein Kampf"—and to their surprise, find it a rather boring book, and they can’t understand why it’s so heavily criticized and banned. But in "Mein Kampf," they discover a reference to a more interesting book—"On the Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther. From that book, they learn a lot of new and unexpected things.
Then they see what Zionists are doing in Gaza and to the Palestinians, and the picture becomes even more confusing. In the end, from a simple, devout Christian who never thought about politics or ethnic issues, there emerges a conscious person. But unfortunately, this person often becomes what you might call an antisemite—not because they initially hated Jews, but because the aggressive propaganda, including Dispensationalist ideas, pushed them to explore the dark sides of history, politics, and theology that they previously ignored.
Thus, instead of "counteracting" antisemitism, Dispensationalism and the related activities of Protestant Zionists can, on the contrary, create fertile ground for questions, skepticism, and, ultimately, radical views. These are not the "fruits" you speak of, but rather the bitter fruits of manipulation and imposing an alien agenda. Perhaps it’s worth considering whether you’re idealizing Dispensationalism too much, ignoring its potentially destructive consequences.
Chrysostomos
New Member
On the Jews and Their Lies, 1543
by Martin Luther (1483-1546)
Translated by Martin H. Bertram
Now behold what a fine, thick, fat lie they pronounce when they say that they are held captive by us.
Jerusalem was destroyed over fourteen hundred years ago, and at that time we Christians were harassed
and persecuted by the Jews throughout the world for about three hundred years, as we said earlier. We
might well complain that during that time they held us Christians captive and killed us, which is the
plain truth. Furthermore, we do not know to the present day which devil brought them into our country.
We surely did not bring them from Jerusalem.
In addition, no one is holding them here now. The country and the roads are open for them to proceed
to their land whenever they wish. If they did so, we would be glad to present gifts to them on the
occasion; it would be good riddance. For they are a heavy burden, a plague, a pestilence, a sheer
misfortune for our country. Proof for this is found in the fact that they have often been expelled forcibly
from a country, far from being held captive in it. Thus they were banished from France (which they call
*Tsorfath,* from Obadiah 20), which was an especially fine nest. Very recently they were banished by
our dear Emperor Charles from Spain, the very best nest of all (which they called *Sefarad,* also on
the basis of Obadiah). This year they were expelled from the entire Bohemian crownland, where they
had one of the best nests, in Prague. Likewise, during my lifetime they have been driven from
Regensburg, Magdeburg, and other places.
If you cannot tolerate a person in a country or home, does that constitute holding him in captivity? In
fact, they hold us Christians captive in our own country. They let us work in the sweat of our brow to
earn money and property while they sit behind the stove, idle away the time, fart, and roast pears. They
stuff themselves, guzzle, and live in luxury and ease from our hard-earned goods. With their accursed
usury they hold us and our property captive. Moreover, they mock and deride us because we work and
let them play the role of lazy squires at our expense and in our land. Thus they are our masters and we
are their servants, with our property, our sweat, and our labor. And by way of reward and thanks they
curse our Lord and us! Should the devil not laugh and dance if he can enjoy such a fine paradise at the
expense of us Christians? He devours what is ours through his saints, the Jews, and repays us by
insulting us, in addition to mocking and cursing both God and man.
They could not have enjoyed such good times in Jerusalem under David and Solomon with their own
possessions as they now do with ours, which they daily steal and rob. And yet they wail that we have
taken them captive. Indeed, we have captured them and hold them in captivity just as I hold captive my
gallstone, my bloody tumor, and all the other ailments and misfortunes which I have to nurse and take
care of with money and goods and all that I have. Alas, I wish that they were in Jerusalem with the
Jews and whomever else they would like to have there.Since it has now been established that we do not hold them captive, how does it happen that we deserve
the enmity of such noble and great saints? We do not call their women whores as they do Mary, Jesus'
mother. We do not call them children of whores as they do our Lord Jesus. We do not say that they were
conceived at the time of cleansing and were thus born as idiots, as they say of our Lord. We do not say
that their women are *haria,*, as they do with regard to our dear Mary. We do not curse them but wish
them well, physically and spiritually. We lodge them, we let them eat and drink with us. We do not
kidnap their children and pierce them through; we do not poison their wells; we do not thirst for their
blood. How, then, do we incur such terrible anger, envy, and hatred on the part of such great and holy
children of God?
by Martin Luther (1483-1546)
Translated by Martin H. Bertram
Now behold what a fine, thick, fat lie they pronounce when they say that they are held captive by us.
Jerusalem was destroyed over fourteen hundred years ago, and at that time we Christians were harassed
and persecuted by the Jews throughout the world for about three hundred years, as we said earlier. We
might well complain that during that time they held us Christians captive and killed us, which is the
plain truth. Furthermore, we do not know to the present day which devil brought them into our country.
We surely did not bring them from Jerusalem.
In addition, no one is holding them here now. The country and the roads are open for them to proceed
to their land whenever they wish. If they did so, we would be glad to present gifts to them on the
occasion; it would be good riddance. For they are a heavy burden, a plague, a pestilence, a sheer
misfortune for our country. Proof for this is found in the fact that they have often been expelled forcibly
from a country, far from being held captive in it. Thus they were banished from France (which they call
*Tsorfath,* from Obadiah 20), which was an especially fine nest. Very recently they were banished by
our dear Emperor Charles from Spain, the very best nest of all (which they called *Sefarad,* also on
the basis of Obadiah). This year they were expelled from the entire Bohemian crownland, where they
had one of the best nests, in Prague. Likewise, during my lifetime they have been driven from
Regensburg, Magdeburg, and other places.
If you cannot tolerate a person in a country or home, does that constitute holding him in captivity? In
fact, they hold us Christians captive in our own country. They let us work in the sweat of our brow to
earn money and property while they sit behind the stove, idle away the time, fart, and roast pears. They
stuff themselves, guzzle, and live in luxury and ease from our hard-earned goods. With their accursed
usury they hold us and our property captive. Moreover, they mock and deride us because we work and
let them play the role of lazy squires at our expense and in our land. Thus they are our masters and we
are their servants, with our property, our sweat, and our labor. And by way of reward and thanks they
curse our Lord and us! Should the devil not laugh and dance if he can enjoy such a fine paradise at the
expense of us Christians? He devours what is ours through his saints, the Jews, and repays us by
insulting us, in addition to mocking and cursing both God and man.
They could not have enjoyed such good times in Jerusalem under David and Solomon with their own
possessions as they now do with ours, which they daily steal and rob. And yet they wail that we have
taken them captive. Indeed, we have captured them and hold them in captivity just as I hold captive my
gallstone, my bloody tumor, and all the other ailments and misfortunes which I have to nurse and take
care of with money and goods and all that I have. Alas, I wish that they were in Jerusalem with the
Jews and whomever else they would like to have there.Since it has now been established that we do not hold them captive, how does it happen that we deserve
the enmity of such noble and great saints? We do not call their women whores as they do Mary, Jesus'
mother. We do not call them children of whores as they do our Lord Jesus. We do not say that they were
conceived at the time of cleansing and were thus born as idiots, as they say of our Lord. We do not say
that their women are *haria,*, as they do with regard to our dear Mary. We do not curse them but wish
them well, physically and spiritually. We lodge them, we let them eat and drink with us. We do not
kidnap their children and pierce them through; we do not poison their wells; we do not thirst for their
blood. How, then, do we incur such terrible anger, envy, and hatred on the part of such great and holy
children of God?
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soberxp
Well-Known Member
Sounds more like a Communist Manifesto indictment of capitalists.LOL.
Chrysostomos
New Member
Your profile indicates that you are from China, so I can assume that you may not be very familiar with National Socialism but are likely well-versed in communism. You noticed a similarity between Martin Luther’s criticism of economic exploitation (usury) and Karl Marx’s critique of capitalism, and this makes sense. Indeed, this theme does overlap, as both authors, in different contexts, address issues of inequality and exploitation.
Moreover, Karl Marx himself was a German Jew, and he was almost certainly familiar with Martin Luther’s works, including "On the Jews and Their Lies." Luther, like Marx, was German, and his influence on German, European, and eventually global cultural, religious, and intellectual life was immense. Luther’s writings not only shaped the Reformation but also impacted subsequent generations of thinkers.
It is particularly significant that Adolf Hitler, the chief ideologue of National Socialism, openly acknowledged Luther’s influence. In his main book, "Mein Kampf," he repeatedly referred to Luther, viewing him as a forerunner in criticizing Jews and their role in society. Thus, all of this is indeed part of the legacy of German thought and culture, connecting Luther, Marx, and Hitler, despite their different eras and objectives.
Your comment is justified because you’ve identified this historical and cultural link. However, the differences between Luther’s theological critique, Marx’s political theory, and Hitler’s racial ideology are still significant. Luther wrote from a theological perspective, Marx from a political one, and Hitler from a racial one. Nevertheless, your observation about the similarity in criticizing exploitation is well-founded, and it is indeed tied to this shared German intellectual heritage.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Yes it will my friend . It would have been far better had people done just that my friend .
Too many leaders throughout the centuries and now specially in these last days
are adding things in and taking things out and building a massive false religoin .
Its better we stay in the bible being refreshed by the truth , by those reminders .
soberxp
Well-Known Member
But the Bible tells us that those who believe live together and share all things.
The Book of Acts 2:44
And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Communism is the transformation of all men, including the capitalists, so communism must fail, because the Word of God has more power and reason.
What I have learned about Hitler is that he had a lot of Jewish sponsors in the beginning (I don't know if the source is accurate or reliable), but I don't know why Hitler also hated Jews so much.
But the Jews were deported from one place to another, which is written in the Bible prophecy.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
It does. Note how both religion and philosophy are the "big ideas" that drive History.
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Karl marx at one time was within the churches . But as many he was of anti christ and fled the true faith .
You should have seen a letter he wrote when he was , i think seventeen talking about the LORD .
But years later he was a hater of true christanity.
Communism is mans way of doing things . And if we both take notice
SOME sure SEEM to benefit a WHOLE LOT more than others . It is full of hypocrisy
as are the other forms of govt . As for us true christains
we shall simply Follow THE LORD and learn our bible and be in prayer , being hearers and doers of the Word .
These kingdoms on earth shall not last and will not a one of them ENDURE umoveable to the END .
We look forward to the new heavens and the new earth . To the trenches my friend
Our Kingdom , our Jersualem is above WHERE CHRIST Sits at the right hand of THE FATHER .
wherein the TEMPLE is GOD and the lamb and our connection is THE SPIRIT .
Onward in the trenches cause these days are fast running their course and the END is a coming .
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I've personally run into Christians who never met a Jew in their entire lives, but who hated them because they are portrayed in the New Testament as having crucified Christ and opposing the spread of Christianity. Thus, Luther, and the Catholic Church before him, have perpetuated a grudge over historical events that happened 2000 years ago. Jesus's people have been complicit in that, and we damn well ought to confess it.
Yep. My neighbor across the street has a "Free Palestine! Stop the genocide" sign in her yard. Pick your genocide - the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, or the inevitable second Holocaust that's going to occur if Israel loses. As Jesus's people, we CANNOT support either genocide. We are called to be peacemakers. There's a reason the magazine plates on my 9mm pistol have Matthew 5:9 on them.
As for the bitter fruits of manipulation and imposition of an alien agenda... my country has become increasingly radicalized, with both sides feeling an alien agenda has been imposed on them by the other. The whole world is a cauldron of manipulation and agendas. Jesus never promised us that being a peacemaker was going to be easy.
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Early Christians were themselves Jewish followers of Jesus. The separation between Christianity and Judaism was a gradual process that took centuries, not an immediate break. Early Christian writings must be understood in their cultural and historical context.
The quoted passages from John's Gospel reflect tensions between Jesus and certain religious leaders of his time, but many biblical scholars caution against applying these specific exchanges to all Jewish people throughout history. The text addresses specific individuals in a specific historical situation.
I'd encourage a nuanced understanding of the theological differences between Judaism and Christianity. Both traditions have evolved significantly since Biblical times.
Throughout history, Christian misinterpretations of these passages have sometimes been used to justify terrible persecution and violence against Jewish communities. In-group/out-group dynamics can lead to dehumanization of those with different beliefs.
The Bible does teach that salvation comes through Christ alone, but it also teaches Christians to demonstrate Christ's love to all people, regardless of their beliefs. Jesus commanded us to love our neighbors as ourselves and even to love our enemies.
I believe we can firmly hold to Christian truths while still showing respect and compassion toward those of different faiths. This approach better reflects the character of Jesus, who while firmly proclaiming truth, showed remarkable compassion to those considered "outsiders" in his society.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Chrysostomos
New Member
You mentioned Acts 2:44, and that’s an interesting observation, but communism and the Jews are indeed interconnected, especially in the context of what Hitler wrote. In "Mein Kampf," he indeed referenced Russia and Bolshevism as an example of what he feared for Germany. Hitler frequently stated that the Jews, in his view, were the primary ideologues and organizers of the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 in Russia. He accused them of using communism as a tool to destroy traditional societies, religion, and, in particular, Christianity.
Hitler wrote that in Russia, the Bolsheviks (whom he associated with Jews) annihilated millions of people, including Christians, the aristocracy, and the peasantry, describing it as a "genocide" against "normal" society. He feared that the same could happen in Germany if the Jews retained their influence. Here’s an approximate passage (translated from Russian language, as the original is in German, but the meaning is preserved):
"The Jew has always been a people with no roots, a parasite in the body of other nations. In Russia, we see the ultimate consequence of his rule: the destruction of the Christian order, the murder of millions, and the reign of terror under the Bolsheviks, who are nothing but tools of Jewish world domination."
This isn’t an exact quote, but it reflects the general tone of "Mein Kampf." Hitler indeed saw the Jews as a threat not only to Germans but to the entire Christian world, believing their goal was to destroy Christianity and traditional values.
Regarding Russia, Hitler often cited it as a "warning." He accused the Jews of being the "brains" behind Bolshevism and claimed that leaders like Lenin and Trotsky (though Trotsky wasn’t fully Jewish by descent, Hitler considered him so) used the revolution to commit genocide against Christians and the aristocracy. He wrote that Germany must prevent a similar "takeover" by Jews. For instance, in the chapter "Nation and Race," he states:
"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength with the mass of numbers and their dead weight. Thus it denies the value of personality in man, contests the significance of nationality and race, and thereby withdraws from humanity the premise of its existence and its culture. As a foundation of the universe, this doctrine would bring about the end of any order intellectually conceivable to man. And as in this greatest of all recognizable organisms, the result of an application of such a law could only be chaos, on earth it could only be destruction for the inhabitants of this planet."
Here, he directly links Jews with Marxism and the chaos that, in his view, destroys the Christian and Aryan order. Another example mentioning Russia:
"If, with the help of his Marxist creed, the Jew is victorious over the other peoples of the world, his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity and this planet will, as it did thousands of years ago, move through the ether devoid of men. Eternal Nature inexorably avenges the infringement of her commands. Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
Here, he implies that fighting the Jews is a fight to save humanity from their "destruction," including the destruction of Christian values, as he believed happened in Russia.
So, you might see a similarity between communism and what Luther wrote about, but Hitler used this as a justification for his hatred of Jews, not as a call for their transformation. As for Jewish sponsors of Hitler in the beginning, that’s a controversial claim, and the sources are often unreliable—most likely a myth or propaganda. His hatred of Jews was deep and consistent, rooted in his fear of their "destructive power."
soberxp
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
soberxp
Well-Known Member
It sounds like anyone has Jewish descent, Marx was of Jewish descent, The Soviet general was of Jewish descent, The capitalist has Jewish descent.
Everyone they hated has Jewish descent,I even wonder how to define so-called Jewish ancestry.
I sometimes even think about whether any Christian thinks that having Jewish blood can be saved, But they also hated the Jews at some point in history.
I even suspect that people prefer to marry Jews to get Jewish blood so they can be saved.
I keep hearing a voice saying that by being Jewish you can be saved by God, and it's like a noise going back and forth.
Be where??
Behold
Well-Known Member
As i told you... Ive worked in the "Medical Field"
And again, a blood transfusion, is not "eating blood" as the verses state that the JW Cult twist into......."dont take a Transfusion"
If you decide to let yourself die, because a cult has led you to believe that "eating blood" . is the same as taking a Transfusion.....then that is your free will decision.
But dont push this garbage theology, on a "christian" forum.......like this one., as if a weak minded person listens to you, and they make the mistake of refusing a plasma transfusion based on your cult's theology, and they die.. then you killed them......or their family member, if the person listening to you here, refused to consent to this long standing and safe medical treatment.
Listen, you can go online and find any subject you want, and there will be "scientist and medical professionals who will take a stand against it, or for it".
This is common.
Just pick a topic and here come all the "professional opinions" on Youtube.... to deny it or support it.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Its not emotional blackmail..
See, you are promoting to the members of this Forum = "dont take a blood transfusion".. "even if you or your family member will die, without it", and so, you and your JW Cult who teach this type of Harmful theology, are going to take responsibility for it.
Believe it.
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
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