Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

Aunty Jane · Mar 25, 2025

Lambano said:
Paul's main goal in life was to attain the Resurrection from the dead. If he believed the soul lives on in a disembodied state, why would this be his goal?

10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. - Philippians 3:10-11.

Exactly…..what Paul looked forward to was the same as what all the other apostles and anointed ones looked forward to….
Dying in the flesh and being raised in the spirit as Jesus was. The Holy Spirit gave them that longing.

But according to Paul’s words in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17…that was not to occur until the Lord returned.

”Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.”

After “sleeping in death”, upon their resurrection, those who qualify for that “first resurrection” will be “kings and priests“ with their King Christ Jesus in heaven, (Rev 20:6) chosen to rule over redeemed mankind and to bring them back to God’s first purpose for this earth and all living things upon it. (Rev 21:2-4)

This is what the Lord’s Prayer is all about…..with the ‘coming’ of God’s Kingdom, God’s will can then “be done on earth as it is in heaven.“

God did not create the earth as a training ground for heaven…it was designed to be our permanent home.

Lambano · Mar 26, 2025

Aunty Jane said:
When you examine the context and the beliefs of the ones to whom these supposedly contradictory statements were made, you will see that the interpretation is contradictory, not the Scripture…..God’s word can never contradict itself.

I have not yet conceded that assumption. Assuming that Scripture presents a single, monolithic worldview blinds us to seeing what it actually DOES say.

Lambano · Mar 26, 2025

Aunty Jane said:
...and to bring them back to God’s first purpose for this earth and all living things upon it. (Rev 21:2-4)

Hey, @St. SteVen, now we're talking about the Great Restoration of all things. Softball, right down the middle!

St. SteVen · Mar 26, 2025

Aunty Jane said:
Could it be that the “church” system itself is the problem?

Yes. What I call "the institutional church".
Which I differentiate from the Body of Christ. (the church)

Aunty Jane said:
Could it be that all those many denominations in Christendom all teach the same lies? Yet they all have irreconcilable differences.

I don't have huge issues with the many denominations. Some are not genuine, but...
most I view as specialists in one area of the faith or another. Unity happens when we accept our differences.

Aunty Jane said:
Does God produce division among his people…or unity? What should we expect to see? (1 Cor 1:10)

Would you surrender your own beliefs for the cause of doctrinal unity?
Who decides?

That is not the path to unity. IMHO

Aunty Jane said:
There is only one truth, so how does a person find the truth where it does not exist?

Who decides?
There is no consensus.

Did your group get it right? (that's convenient) - LOL

[

St. SteVen · Mar 26, 2025

Lambano said:
Hey, @St. SteVen, now we're talking about the Great Restoration of all things. Softball, right down the middle!

Yes!
Imagine that.
I was a bit stunned.
I did respond.

[

Lambano · Mar 26, 2025

... And he takes a weak hack at it and fouls off the pitch.

St. SteVen · Mar 26, 2025

St. SteVen said:
Did your group get it right? (that's convenient) - LOL

That's where I parted with the institutional church.

There I was in middle-class American society.
My evangelical church declared that we had it right and everyone else was wrong.
That seemed suspiciously convenient. What's wrong with this picture?

[

St. SteVen · Mar 26, 2025

Lambano said:
... And he takes a weak hack at it and fouls off the pitch.

I should discuss UR with Aunty Jane?

[

Lambano · Mar 26, 2025

St. SteVen said:
I should discuss UR with Aunty Jane?

[

Why wouldn't you? Just because she'll humiliate you in front of all these people?

St. SteVen · Mar 26, 2025

Lambano said:
Why wouldn't you? Just because she'll humiliate you in front of all these people?

Pretty sure we're not on the same page.
In general I have learned to avoid discussion with her.
No end to the endless posts. Rather exhausting.
I'm satisfied that I know where she is coming from.
No need to beat a dead horse.

[

St. SteVen · Mar 26, 2025

St. SteVen said:
Pretty sure we're not on the same page.
In general I have learned to avoid discussion with her.
No end to the endless posts. Rather exhausting.
I'm satisfied that I know where she is coming from.
No need to beat a dead horse.

Honestly, UR does not fare well in debate.
Unless a person has rejected Damnationism and Annihilationism,
they aren't ready to accept Universalism.

Frankly, the biblical case for Damnationism and Annihilationism
is stronger than the biblical case for Universalism. Mostly because
we got our Bible from Damnationists. Had that gone the other way,
it would be a completely different ball game.

Matthew 25:46 YLT
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

[

St. SteVen · Mar 26, 2025

St. SteVen said:
Honestly, UR does not fare well in debate.
Unless a person has rejected Damnationism and Annihilationism,
they aren't ready to accept Universalism.

[

Lambano · Mar 26, 2025

St. SteVen said:
Pretty sure we're not on the same page.
In general I have learned to avoid discussion with her.
No end to the endless posts. Rather exhausting.
I'm satisfied that I know where she is coming from.
No need to beat a dead horse.

[

marks · Mar 26, 2025

Aunty Jane said:
I checked it out, but did not find what you mentioned….all I found was what you copied and pasted….can you link me to the information that discusses the point you mentioned…..please.

You can do this.

ntgreek.org

Much love!

marks · Mar 26, 2025

LuxMundi said:
The verse says "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended out of heaven...". I've never said it says anything other than that. All I ever did was explain why Jesus was the first human to enter Heaven and say that this verse supports that.

That's exactly my point. This verse does not address that. OK, I've told you, you reject, and you persist.

Much love!

Magdala · Mar 26, 2025

marks said:
This verse does not address that.

"No one has ascended into heaven but he..." (Jn. 3:13)

That verse implies that no other human has ever gone to Heaven, which supports my statement that Jesus was the first human to enter Heaven. Of course you're not going to agree if you're someone who doesn't believe that Jesus was the first human to enter Heaven.

marks · Mar 26, 2025

LuxMundi said:
That verse implies

Implies? No, it does not. But enough repeating myself.

Much love!

marks · Mar 26, 2025

LuxMundi said:
if you're someone who doesn't believe that Jesus

My view is based on the wording of the Bible. Period.

Much love!

Magdala · Mar 26, 2025

marks said:
Implies? No, it does not.

Yes, it does:

"No one has ascended into heaven but he..." (Jn. 3:13)

marks said:
My view is based on the wording of the Bible. Period.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Jesus wasn't the first human to enter Heaven, nor that any other human went to Heaven before Jesus.

Wick Stick · Mar 26, 2025

Aunty Jane said:
This is figurative just as the verse in Genesis 4:4-11 is figurative of justice not being done.

When Cain murdered his brother…..”Jehovah said to Cain: “Where is your brother Abel?” and he said: “I do not know. Am I my brother’s guardian?” 10 At this He said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground.”

It is injustice crying out to God, that this represents. All will answer to God for what they have done, because “each will give an accounting of himself to God” (Rom 4:12) Justice will be done.

It's likely that 1st century Jews viewed it literally. In the Book of 1Enoch, Enoch is shown a place where the deceased martyrs dwell, awaiting their resurrection. Enoch sees them crying out to God for justice for their murders, and in particular the voice of Abel cries out.

The 5th seal in Revelation seems to be a reference to this bit of Enoch.

Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

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