The Chosen
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Not at all. Your entire line of criticism is unfounded. When I think of all the great Renaissance art depicting Biblical scenes in glory to God, I am disgusted that someone like you may have whined that the Bible does not say that’s what is was.
Huh?
You are all over the map here. You plainly don't want to address my comments. And you are disgusted by someone like me, even in your little made up art critic scenario. But it gives you opportunity to say what you want to say. This is telling me everything about you I need to know here. So never you mind!
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Nope. I’ve made the same point many different ways. Sad that you feel duty bound to attack successful Christian art.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
What you mean by it, obviously.
This is a question that depends entirely on your hidden thought of why you think God created man in the first place, and what that has to do with God's subsequent actions.
What I posted in the verse I quoted about having eternal life which is to know God, that's my answer to you.
I believe God made man to be the recipient of His love, the best giver of the best gift created a recipient for His gift. I'm of the mind that when man fell, God was undeterred in His intent that He would have His family, and sent Jesus to that end.
God intends to have a family, and He means to have it!
Now, you tell me, what is your answer?
Much love!
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what Quiet has in mind, but it's a great question... Why did God create man and go through the humiliation of the redemption process, knowing before creation such a step would be necessary?
Here's my two cents worth. Lucifer rebelled in heaven before the creation of man. House rebellion was not one of force of arms, but involved an attempt at a political coup, using slander and lies in an effort to malign God's government. This entailed a detailed and planned polemic against the character of God. This 'war in heaven' was a way of words. Political arguments. An electoral campaign, and the angels were the constituents. Rumour, slander, lies, innuendo, we Lucifer's weapons of choice in attempting to convince that a rebellion against God was a just and right takeover bid. This was a war of ideas. Not a war of arms and combat. So what were weapons in this war? How did God defend Himself against Lucifer's denigrating attacks upon His character? The truth.
God could have squashed Lucifer with His thumb. Argument over... right? No. You can't diffuse a war based on lies and ideas by force. In the eyes of those interested onlookers, that would merely confirm the lies in the eyes of Lucifer's supporters, and create doubt in the minds of the rest. The accusations of being arbitrary, unforgiving, tyrannical etc, would be affirmed. How do we know those were Lucifer's arguments before? Because Lucifer, now Satan, has promoted and continued the same controversy, starting in Eden. "Yea, hath God said?" Intimating God was lying and holding something back that was to their good. "You can be as gods, but God wants the power all to Himself, so, help yourself..." "Die? What's that? How can gods die?" And continued those decision throughout human history, and attempted to demonstrate those lies through false gods and legends. Aren't those the very same arguments that Job had to contend with? Aren't they continuing on today's religious debates even on this very forum? Men believing they are naturally immortal, can't die, won't die, live forever, even if in torment? And guess what. Every single false argument is contrary to the nature of God. Ideas such as these... That God is arbitrary, unforgiving, that the laws cannot be obeyed, of of you do disobey you'll suffer for all eternity, have to be proven wrong by demonstration. And that is precisely what Jesus came to do. Demonstrated the true character of the Father, demonstrated the immutability of His laws, demonstrate through the final remnant people that His laws can be obeyed through His grace and power. And demonstrate that man can indeed obey and love God in the worst of circumstances...aka Job. That is why man was created. To prove that God is benevolent, merciful, gracious, that He doesn't expect the impossible, that He's not demanding anything that He hasn't first done Himself, that His laws aren't arbitrary but are a demonstration of God's character and therefore cannot be done away with. And finally, to refute the very arguments brought up in this very thread, that God has ordained sinners to damnation and the saved to immortality contrary to the wishes and desires and most fondest hopes of those seeking His help and mercy.
And why is this controversy taking so long?? Because the bride has refused to make herself ready. She has refused to wear the wedding garment provided by the Groom's Father. Also, the world still believes Satan's lies. And so does the vast majority of God's own people. The debates and arguments and demonstrations notwithstanding, even the church itself, like Eve, of still confused over the character of God government, over His authority, and over the nature of His laws. What's it going to take to convince people of the truth?
“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. ”
Revelation 14:1-5, 12 KJV
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
@marks
Here is the question again just so we don't loose track of it by having it morph into something else.
'What do you perceive the 'mission' of Jesus to ultimately be? I don't mean the side benefits we derive from it, I mean it's ultimate purpose?'
As Brakelite has rightly stated, and to flesh out the meaning of the question. Accusations have been made against God's character by Lucifer. As a result a substantial number of the angels have bought his arguments. These events unfold before man was created.
The subsequent question arising now is, how does God deal with it seeing he is 'The Boss'
Does he do a Mr Trump and say 'you're fired'? Does he send in the 'military' and use overwhelming force because he has the 'muscle and means?' Does he with a word wipe out the opposition and with it the memory of anyone else's in creation privy to the charges against him? How does he vindicate his smeared character? How does he prove beyond doubt that the charges against him are false?'
While these charges are in process Man is created from dust, from elements which God himself is the author of ....and man who is now also in Lucifer's orbit, takes the same bait of sophisticated and cunning arguments many of the angels did.
How does God deal with this?
This is how God deals with the matter. He takes the path that is consistent with who he is because he cannot or will not deny himself.
He divests himself of anything that would give him an advantage (except truth) and becomes as a frail creature (Man)....one disadvantaged in all ways from the outset. (by scandal from his conception and misunderstanding from even his family to rejection by the beneficiaries of his kindnesses) At the end of an allotted time he allows his own creatures to terminate his earthly reality...not that he wanted it (which we struggle to grasp the enormity of)
Angels and other Worlds watching this gobsmacking condescension of the Creator now see the truth of the charges Lucifer has brought as absolutely unjustified. This also unmasks Lucifer for the truth he is, which Jesus identifies as being a thief, a liar and a killer who has come to destroy. (John 8:44, 10:10)
Here is the question again just so we don't loose track of it by having it morph into something else.
'What do you perceive the 'mission' of Jesus to ultimately be? I don't mean the side benefits we derive from it, I mean it's ultimate purpose?'
Firstly, these first few immediate words are a summary......'God is vindicating his character'......that is what my 'ultimately' is referring to.
As Brakelite has rightly stated, and to flesh out the meaning of the question. Accusations have been made against God's character by Lucifer. As a result a substantial number of the angels have bought his arguments. These events unfold before man was created.
The subsequent question arising now is, how does God deal with it seeing he is 'The Boss'
Does he do a Mr Trump and say 'you're fired'? Does he send in the 'military' and use overwhelming force because he has the 'muscle and means?' Does he with a word wipe out the opposition and with it the memory of anyone else's in creation privy to the charges against him? How does he vindicate his smeared character? How does he prove beyond doubt that the charges against him are false?'
While these charges are in process Man is created from dust, from elements which God himself is the author of ....and man who is now also in Lucifer's orbit, takes the same bait of sophisticated and cunning arguments many of the angels did.
How does God deal with this?
This is how God deals with the matter. He takes the path that is consistent with who he is because he cannot or will not deny himself.
He divests himself of anything that would give him an advantage (except truth) and becomes as a frail creature (Man)....one disadvantaged in all ways from the outset. (by scandal from his conception and misunderstanding from even his family to rejection by the beneficiaries of his kindnesses) At the end of an allotted time he allows his own creatures to terminate his earthly reality...not that he wanted it (which we struggle to grasp the enormity of)
Angels and other Worlds watching this gobsmacking condescension of the Creator now see the truth of the charges Lucifer has brought as absolutely unjustified. This also unmasks Lucifer for the truth he is, which Jesus identifies as being a thief, a liar and a killer who has come to destroy. (John 8:44, 10:10)
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
@marks ...Please make the effort and take the time to watch this presentation. Perhaps it will be insightful?
www.rediscoveringgod.ca
191 A Messiah That Would Not Die
Jesus predicts that He would die and be raised again but the disciples just could not understand such a concept. They knew the Messiah would live forever. The Bible told them so. As a result they were not prepared for what Jesus was telling them would happen. No one expected Jesus to die and...
Personally I think the truth is much simpler. God wants His family to share Himself with, the ultimate Giver giving the ultimate Gift. And though created beings lack His intrinsic goodness, He made a way for that to be overcome as He joins us to Himself, sharing in His goodness.I'm not sure what Quiet has in mind, but it's a great question... Why did God create man and go through the humiliation of the redemption process, knowing before creation such a step would be necessary?
Here's my two cents worth. Lucifer rebelled in heaven before the creation of man. House rebellion was not one of force of arms, but involved an attempt at a political coup, using slander and lies in an effort to malign God's government. This entailed a detailed and planned polemic against the character of God. This 'war in heaven' was a way of words. Political arguments. An electoral campaign, and the angels were the constituents. Rumour, slander, lies, innuendo, we Lucifer's weapons of choice in attempting to convince that a rebellion against God was a just and right takeover bid. This was a war of ideas. Not a war of arms and combat. So what were weapons in this war? How did God defend Himself against Lucifer's denigrating attacks upon His character? The truth.
God could have squashed Lucifer with His thumb. Argument over... right? No. You can't diffuse a war based on lies and ideas by force. In the eyes of those interested onlookers, that would merely confirm the lies in the eyes of Lucifer's supporters, and create doubt in the minds of the rest. The accusations of being arbitrary, unforgiving, tyrannical etc, would be affirmed. How do we know those were Lucifer's arguments before? Because Lucifer, now Satan, has promoted and continued the same controversy, starting in Eden. "Yea, hath God said?" Intimating God was lying and holding something back that was to their good. "You can be as gods, but God wants the power all to Himself, so, help yourself..." "Die? What's that? How can gods die?" And continued those decision throughout human history, and attempted to demonstrate those lies through false gods and legends. Aren't those the very same arguments that Job had to contend with? Aren't they continuing on today's religious debates even on this very forum? Men believing they are naturally immortal, can't die, won't die, live forever, even if in torment? And guess what. Every single false argument is contrary to the nature of God. Ideas such as these... That God is arbitrary, unforgiving, that the laws cannot be obeyed, of of you do disobey you'll suffer for all eternity, have to be proven wrong by demonstration. And that is precisely what Jesus came to do. Demonstrated the true character of the Father, demonstrated the immutability of His laws, demonstrate through the final remnant people that His laws can be obeyed through His grace and power. And demonstrate that man can indeed obey and love God in the worst of circumstances...aka Job. That is why man was created. To prove that God is benevolent, merciful, gracious, that He doesn't expect the impossible, that He's not demanding anything that He hasn't first done Himself, that His laws aren't arbitrary but are a demonstration of God's character and therefore cannot be done away with. And finally, to refute the very arguments brought up in this very thread, that God has ordained sinners to damnation and the saved to immortality contrary to the wishes and desires and most fondest hopes of those seeking His help and mercy.
And why is this controversy taking so long?? Because the bride has refused to make herself ready. She has refused to wear the wedding garment provided by the Groom's Father. Also, the world still believes Satan's lies. And so does the vast majority of God's own people. The debates and arguments and demonstrations notwithstanding, even the church itself, like Eve, of still confused over the character of God government, over His authority, and over the nature of His laws. What's it going to take to convince people of the truth?
“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. ”
Revelation 14:1-5, 12 KJV
Much love!
There is no trial, no jury, no witnesses and lawyers and charges. Just stand face to face with Him. I like CS Lewis' idea, something like, Either you will shrink from Him in horror or rush to Him enrapt in love.
And everyone will in fact stand face to face with Him. All that will matter are His charges against those whom He is judging.
God already showed between Himself and Satan through Job. God proved He knew man, not Satan, that God was right, not Satan.
This isn't a legal thriller, it's a love story.
Much love!
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
When I was at the Louvre I saw the Mona Lisa, which was much darker and smaller than I imagined. The Last Supper was not on display but a placard had a picture of it and explained the master experimented with pigment that did not adhere to canvas well and is now considered a complete wreck. :-(
Another painting deeply captured my imagination. The 1295 painting is said to commemorate the exact moment the Renaissance began; the moment Saint Francis Received the Stigmata.
@marks be like: nothing in the Bible says Jesus will return with wings to give stigmata.
Or nothing in the Bible says cherubs have beards or take on stigmata to give to others.
This makes it a lie and poison, etc. LOL
Seriously, the painting is stunning. The rich gold background conveys divinity and the rest of the pigment has held up marvelously over the last 8 centuries. It looks like it was painted yesterday.
The Bible does not record how Mary came to be a disciple. The fictional account of The Chosen touches on Biblical events only tangentially. It primarily focuses between Biblical events. The depiction of Mary coming to Christ was powerful and personal. She went to a cliff, about to commit suicide. A dove caught her attention and seemed to guide her back to the bar.
She planned to drink to access. Just as the bartender handed her a drink, the camera focused on it. A hand covered hers and calmly said, "This is not for you."
She stormed out of the bar, filled with a mix of emotions: rage, despair, fear. The episode is nearly over. A man not shown so far in the episode walks out of the bar. He calls her by name, "Mary of Magdala." This stops her in her tracks. The man quotes Is 43:1.
thus says the LORD,
he who created you, O Jacob
he who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name, you are mine.
The moment was captured of her falling into our savior's arms with the verse that was so relevant to her and her relationship with her deceased father. I have this painting in my hallway, a Xmas gift to my wife. It's beautiful. All glory to God!
I don't know. I came back after a weekend and he was gone. Profile gone, nothing. I tried emailing him but no answer. He's very dear to me, I'm certain I've failed to express to him how much. As are you, just saying, that is, dear to me.
Much love!
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