Does God love those He burns in Hell "Forever and Ever"?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
3,373
847
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree there is no millennial reign on earth, it is in heaven right now. The 1000 years is symbolic of a long indeterminate time before the return of Christ.
Good. Right.

They wont obediently depart after the judgement as they must be cast into the Lake of fire. No one willing goes there.
Hmmmm, well, you might read Matthew 25, especially Jesus's directive to them in verse 41, and then what Jesus says is their subsequent action in verse 46. I mean, I'm sure you have before, but-tuhhhhh... <smile>

Proof that there will be none left alive in the flesh...
Well, that none will be remaining here, among us who will have been resurrected to eternal life.

...all who do not believe in Christ are children of the devil.
Right, and they will follow into where he has gone, into... eternal judgment. <shudder>

They are essentially gone forever, eternally separated from the righteous and God. They are never coming back. They are burned up leaving them neither root nor branch, it is an everlasting destruct
Well, again, yes, they're gone from here forever, certainly, and without hope of any return. This is the everlasting destruction, in the sense of being utterly ruined and totally devoid of any hope... <shudder>

Grace and peace to you, Scott.
 
Last edited:

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,247
5,141
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
Good. Right.


Hmmmm, well, you might read Matthew 25, especially Jesus's directive to them in verse 41, and then what Jesus says is their subsequent action in verse 46. I mean, I'm sure you have before, but-tuhhhhh... <smile>


Well, that none will be remaining here, among us who will have been resurrected to eternal life.


Right, and they will follow into where he has gone, into... eternal judgment. <shudder>


Well, again, yes, they're gone from here forever, certainly, and without hope of any return. This is the everlasting destruction, in the sense of being utterly ruined and totally devoid of any hope... <shudder>

Grace and peace to you, Scott.
44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Does not mention how they go away. Jesus said the angels cast them in.
You can't say they walk into the Lake of Fire voluntarily if as Jesus says angels cast them in and God in Rev says they are cast in too.

They do not cast themselves in. To cast in something requires someone other than the one being cast AND it agrees with scripture.
Devil also does not cast himself into Hell. God does it. And they are rebels against God and do not obey what He says.

Example angels did not just walk into their prison., someone else locked them in that place

Doom of False Teachers​

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of [c]dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.


6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
11,416
4,677
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I can also quote verses with the word "hate" in them, but thats not going to help you, as you've already proven you are stuck in confusion, @Jack .

See you there.
You say God doesn't hate people. The Bible says He does. How am I confused? Have you read the curse of God? The FEAR of God and wrath of God are 2 main Bible doctrines! Much more so than the love of God!!!!!
 
Last edited:
  • Prayer
Reactions: Wrangler

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,247
5,141
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
3,373
847
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does not mention how they go away.
Scott, in Matthew 25:41 ~ which you seemingly rather "conveniently" cut out of your quote ~ Jesus says to them, "depart from me" (also in Matthew 7:23). Now, why would he tell them to depart from Him if anyone was really going to "cast them in" in the way you're suggesting? I would just say that Adam and Eve were cast from Eden in Genesis 3, but no one actually threw them, or pushed them, or... whatever... <chuckles> No, "the Lord God sent..." Adam and Eve "...out from the garden of Eden" (Genesis 3:23), and the wicked will depart the New Heaven and New Earth ~ the Garden made new ~ in the same way.

Jesus said the angels cast them in.
Right, and I'm not denying that at all. But I submit to you that you're reading apocalyptic literature in a very wooden manner.

We generally agree; I suggest we stop here. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.
 
Last edited:

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,247
5,141
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
Matthew 3:11-13
New King James Version

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit [a]and fire.

12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn;

but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Endless punishment, not correction, there is no purgatory



Luke 13:28
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 3:10
And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 5:25
Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.

Matthew 6:30
Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?


Mark 9:42 Jesus Warns of Offenses
“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.

Mark 9:45
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Luke 3:9
And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

Luke 12:28
If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith?

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!

Revelation 8:8
The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.
Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

cast; casting
Synonyms of cast
transitive verb
1
a
: to cause to move or send forth by throwing
cast a fishing lure

cast dice

I can't even imagine being cast or thrown into Hellfire by angels of God is even controversial!
None willingly walk into Hell of their own volition; they are forced against their will into eternal punishment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jack

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
18,228
7,600
113
56
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You say God doesn't hate people. The Bible says He does. How am I confused? Have you read the curse of God? The FEAR of God and wrath of God are 2 main Bible doctrines! Much more so than the love of God!!!!!

Jack, I hope you can see the IDOLATRY others have on this point; Behold believes in the IDOL of 'god is love' despite what else Scripture says on the matter. While I don't agree hate is "much more" Bible doctrines than love, one Pastor pointed out the Bible makes it clear that we have an emotional God - who loves and hates, like we do. He's not just intellect acting on moral principles.

20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I hope you have been dissuaded of the notion that God's plan for us is ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment). As I read these verses, it is reserved for only 2 beings, the beast and the false prophet.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
3,373
847
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I can't even imagine being cast or thrown into Hellfire by angels of God is even controversial!
Hmmm... well in a sense, it's not controversial at all; we agree. But in a different sense, we don't, and it apparently is... LOL!

None willingly walk into Hell of their own volition; they are forced against their will into eternal punishment.
Well, I'll agree that they don't want to, because it's only after a protest of sorts (weak as it is) that they go. But they don't then say, "No way, man, I'm not going"... <chuckles> They don't refuse to go, and they do in fact obey Jesus, reluctant as it may be, when He tells them to depart from Him. Whether something is against one's wishes or not is irrelevant, really; obedience can still occur... like, "Well I don't wanna do it, but okay, yeah, I guess I gotta do it..." We've all done that a time or two... <smile>
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,247
5,141
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
Hmmm... well in a sense, it's not controversial at all; we agree. But in a different sense, we don't, and it apparently is... LOL!


Well, I'll agree that they don't want to, because it's only after a protest of sorts (weak as it is) that they go. But they don't then say, "No way, man, I'm not going"... <chuckles> They don't refuse to go, and they do in fact obey Jesus, reluctant as it may be, when He tells them to depart from Him. Whether something is against one's wishes or not is irrelevant, really; obedience can still occur... like, "Well I don't wanna do it, but okay, yeah, I guess I gotta do it..." We've all done that a time or two... <smile>
The angels gather them up and thrust them into that Lake of fire, Hell and that Lake are the only place people are burned by God.
After they are judged at the Day of judgment, if found guilty, that is the final destination.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares​

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’

28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’

29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

**********************************************************************************************
Yes holy angels bind them to be burned in the lake of fire later on, but before the final judgement they are cast into Hell to await the final judgment at their deaths, they are imprisoned in Hell, as so were the fallen angels who sinned before the flood. The wicked dead are no different in destiny than the fallen angels of Satan and the demons, they both go to the same place. The great White Throne judgment where God sits in judgment on them has already been determined as the books of their deeds are opened and they are judged by the things written in the books, and there are none who do righteousness unless they believe what God says, they are like open graves, exposed. I figure God's angels record everything in 'your book'. God involves all His creatures in some kinds of works, else why even have any angels, God could do it all by Himself, but he gives to others tasks in His kingdom both people and angels.

Jesus tells us those who believe in Him will not come under that judgement as they are given eternal life, having passed from DEATH into LIFE. I suppose we who believe will be witnessing the final judgment.

John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
******************************************************************
As Matthew 25 tells us we are there, as are them. And I think they are already bound to their fate, having been bound by the angels wherever they are, they are bound and gathered and taken to the judgment. To be bound like that implies force is used against them. Notice the people of God are not bound.

The day of judgement is on the Last Day and the resurrection of the dead is also on the Last Day, this is what Jesus and Paul teaches.
Who are you going to believe? Look up the verses if you do not believe what I say!

*******************************************************************

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations​

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the [c]holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
Last edited:

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
3,373
847
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The angels gather them up and thrust them into that Lake of fire, Hell and that Lake are the only place people are burned by God.
After they are judged at the Day of judgment, if found guilty, that is the final destination.
I agree, of course, but the issue is the... understanding (or misunderstanding, actually)... of this being "gathered up" and "thrust into" the "lake of fire," and the "lake of fire" itself, and the "burning by God." John's Revelation should not be read like a Dick and Jane first grade primer; that cannot be done with literature of the apocalyptic genre. Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,247
5,141
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
I agree, of course, but the issue is the... understanding (or misunderstanding, actually)... of this being "gathered up" and "thrust into" the "lake of fire," and the "lake of fire" itself, and the "burning by God." John's Revelation should not be read like a Dick and Jane first grade primer; that cannot be done with literature of the apocalyptic genre. Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.
Jesus said plenty on the subject of Hell, But if you do not believe all that he says about eternal judgement how can you believe anything He says or what any scripture says. See you will just interpret it all away according to your tradition and doctrine, making the word of God of no effect. And you pick and choose what to believe.

Eternal judgement in a punishment of eternal fire on the wicked is an elementary principal doctrine of Christ.

Hebrews 6
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to [a]perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this [b]we will do if God permits.


Resurrection of the just and the unjust at the same time

Eternal judgement

ALL at His appearing and kingdom, spoken in scriptures many times


John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

2 Timothy 4
I charge you [a]therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead [b]at His appearing and His kingdom:

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
3,373
847
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't make up fancy stories and fables about what is going to happen.
No, you don't, for sure; I'm very much not accusing you of such. But you do misunderstand... and that's quite a different thing than, well, "making up stuff"... <smile>

And even so, that's not any kind of insult to your intelligence... you know, just in case you were to think you perceive that in what I'm saying.

I don't "not believe all that..." ~ or any part of what ~ "...(Jesus) says about eternal judgement," I don't "interpret it all away according to (any) tradition (or) doctrine," and I don't "(make) the word of God of no effect." I don't do any one of these, Scott. For you to suggest I do is quite ridiculous.

And I don't "pick and choose what to believe," either, except in the general sense that that's kinda what we all do... <smile> But with regard to God's Word, there is no picking or choosing what to believe and thereby... <smile>..."casting any part of it into the fire"... see what I did there?

Again, in principle, we agree. We really should be able to leave it at that.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.
 
Last edited:

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,247
5,141
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
No, you don't, for sure; I'm very much not accusing you of such. But you do misunderstand... and that's quite a different thing than, well, "making up stuff"... <smile>

And even so, that's not any kind of insult to your intelligence... you know, just in case you were to think you perceive that in what I'm saying.

I don't "not believe all that (Jesus) says about eternal judgement," I don't "interpret it all away according to (any) tradition (or) doctrine," and I don't "(make) the word of God of no effect." I don't do any one of these, Scott. For you to suggest I do is quite ridiculous.

And I don't "pick and choose what to believe," either, except in the general sense that that's what we all do... <smile>

Again, in principle, we agree. We really should be able to leave it at that.

Grace and peace to you, Scott.
The way I read you, is you don't agree with scripture. And we can leave it at that. You say I don't either, but I am showing what scripture says about Hell, and the Lake of Fire, which you do not take as literal truth.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
3,373
847
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The way I read you, is you don't agree with scripture.
Okay, well, you're wrong. I don't agree with you on your take on what Scripture says about these things. Again, in principle, we agree, on them, but on the true nature of them not so much.

You say I don't either...
No, I don't Scott. I don't. I say you don't understand... well, Revelation 20:7-15 (and other passages we have discussed) correctly... specifically regarding the casting into the lake of fire, and the lake of fire itself. But I DO NOT SAY "you don't agree with Scripture." And you cannot say that to me.

, but I am showing what scripture says about Hell, and the Lake of Fire, which you do not take as literal truth.
Oh, I do, but... well, "literal"... I mean, that's the problem. I don't take it as absolutely ~ woodenly ~ literal, no. But I do say that what we read there is symbolic of an absolutely literal reality that will come to be.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,247
5,141
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
Okay, well, you're wrong. I don't agree with you on your take on what Scripture says about these things. Again, in principle, we agree, on them, but on the true nature of them not so much.


No, I don't Scott. I don't. I say you don't understand... well, Revelation 20:7-15 (and other passages we have discussed) correctly... specifically regarding the casting into the lake of fire, and the lake of fire itself. But I DO NOT SAY "you don't agree with Scripture." And you cannot say that to me.


Oh, I do, but... well, "literal"... I mean, that's the problem. I don't take it as absolutely ~ woodenly ~ literal, no. But I do say that what we read there is symbolic of an absolutely literal reality that will come to be.

Grace and peace to you.
Well you are going on ignore now. Jesus did intend His people to understand and believe what he said. Not some kind of abstract symbolism, Hell is a real place of fiery torments. And a place where unbelievers end up tossed into it. Maybe you believe Hell is whatever Hell means to each individual person. You don't believe anything really, just an illusory concept or meme.
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
11,416
4,677
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
While I don't agree hate is "much more" Bible doctrines than love,
My comment was, "The FEAR of God and wrath of God are 2 main Bible doctrines! Much more so than the love of God!!!!!"
I hope you have been dissuaded of the notion that God's plan for us is ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment). As I read these verses, it is reserved for only 2 beings, the beast and the false prophet.
So you do believe in eternal punishment! So do I. Jesus mentioned it several times.
 

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
3,373
847
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well you are going on ignore now.
LOL! You have no idea how much I don't care. Goodness gracious.

Jesus did intend His people to understand and believe what he said.
Certainly, He did. Goodness gracious.

Not some kind of abstract symbolism
John's Revelation is filled with it. You see it as such, too, Scott, although not as much of it as you should. Which is kind of funny, since you said it was me who was "picking and choosing"... <smile>

Hell is a real place of fiery torments.
I have been very clear that this is indeed the case. But what you imagine those fiery torments to be is the issue, here.

And a place where unbelievers end up tossed into it.
Yes. Kinda like you just tossed me into ignore. <smile>

Maybe you believe Hell is whatever Hell means to each individual person.
giphy.gif


You don't believe anything really, just an illusory concept or meme.
giphy.gif


Grace and peace to you, Scott.
 

FredVB

New Member
Dec 13, 2024
17
20
3
66
Southern California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Burning in hell, or burning in hell forever, is a phrase I see some people use, though I do not see it in the Bible. The closest to that is a lake of fire, in the book full of symbolic imagery. It would be symbolic imagery, as the descriptions of heaven would be, for impressing our limited ability to understand such things outside of our experienced reality. It tells us there will be the torment of lasting misery, but we do not know in this world how that will happen. But God is just and fair, and Christ came to bear the justice that we would not have to, with coming to be in Christ. We should not want to experience that hell to find out.