Does God love those He burns in Hell "Forever and Ever"?

PinSeeker said:

All we have to do to understand that people aren't literally on fire or being burned ~ much less in a literal "lake of fire," which seemingly a contradiction in and of itself; a lake is a body of water, not fire ~ is read, even in a cursory fashion, Jesus's parable in Luke 16. The rich man, who is deceased in this illustration, is "in anguish," which is to say he is in a mental pain, not physical, in and of himself, and the "flame" is the cause of that anguish. The flame not literal but rather the "fire" of God's absolutely just condemnation and judgment. This will be the existence of the unrepentant for eternity: immersed, as one would be in water, in this "lake"... so totally enveloped by said condemnation and judgment, God having totally removed His blessing and grace. This is their eternal torment, their "worm (that) does not die and the fire (that) is not quenched" (Mark 9:48) ~ as opposed to the perfect grace, comfort, peace, joy, and rest in eternity of God's elect.

"...making the mistake of identifying the "Lake of Fire" as being the same thing as Hell"
It's no mistake.

Grace and peace to all.

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It may be more pleasant to think hell is not eternal torment, but it is eternal fiery torments.
Curious as to how you think otherwise?

And their worm does not die, could be they are the worm. like their dead spirit.
"where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."
They remain in that state forever.

1. Revelation 14:10
   he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
   
   
2. Revelation 14:11
   And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Matthew 13:50
and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8
“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 18:9
If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Luke 16:24
Verse Concepts
And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

Isaiah 66:24
“Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

Mark 9:48
where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14
Verse Concepts
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Revelation 14:10
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Source: 15 Bible verses about Fire Of Hell

God does refer to helpless doomed men as like worms, He promises to give salvation to Jacob though he is but a worm., God will aid him

Isaiah 41:14
“Fear not, you worm Jacob, You men of Israel! I will help you,” says the Lord And your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Psalm 22:6
But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised by the people.

Signifying we are helpless without our God.

Jack said:

You're playing word games! Jesus clearly warned us of "Hell fire", "the everlasting fire", "the furnace of fire", "the lake of fire".

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Quoting scripture directly word for word is not "playing word games" with it. We are told that Death and Hell would be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is another name for the second death. (And nobody experiences the physical death process twice - that would contradict Hebrews 9:27 where it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment.) If Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, that means Hell (Hades) is NOT the same thing as the Lake of Fire if Hell was to be thrown into that Lake of Fire. And I gave you the Isaiah 28:14-19 text that described Death and Hell coming to Jerusalem to overcome the city back in the Babylonian invasion for Jerusalem's first death - a death which was duplicated in Jerusalem's second death by fire in AD 70. There are two layers of ash in Old Jerusalem's excavations to prove that this was literal flames which destroyed the city and temple two times in both 586 BC and AD 70.

God told us that His "fire is in Zion, and His furnace in Jerusalem" (Isaiah 31:9). That means the "furnace of fire" was in the city of Old Jerusalem, and it was the location on earth where the besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem suffered horribly as the city was being destroyed (for the second time) down to the last stone in the AD 66-70 period. On the way to the cross, Christ had forewarned the women weeping for Him to instead weep for themselves and their own children for what was going to happen to them personally.

That "everlasting fire" is only called eternal because it emanates without ceasing from before the eternal God's throne. The resurrected righteous will be enabled to dwell with those everlasting burnings and devouring fire forever. Our God is called "a consuming fire" for a reason. We are to fear Him who has the power to destroy both body and soul in the judgment after death so that neither body nor soul for the wicked exist any longer. The wicked are not given eternal life after physical death - not even a supposed eternal life of torment.

You seem to have a sadistic fondness for torture. Why is that?

Jack said:

I didn't write the Bible. I just quote and believe it! Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell!

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You are unfortunately operating under the usual confusion of how the different words in scripture are all translated by the same word "Hell". The KJV translators just threw up their hands and translated all the terms as being "Hell", when they really mean different things. "Sheol", "Hades", "Tartarus" and "Gehenna" are not all the same thing.

Likewise, you have adopted the usual confusion on the various ways that the word "forever" is understood in scripture. It does not always mean "perpetual without any ending at all". Sometimes it can mean a continual condition until the end of an age has arrived. As in the description of the duratiobn of torments experienced in the Lake of Fire ("eis ton aionon).

As for the "Lake of Fire" itself, this was a first-century phenomenon located in the city of Old Jerusalem. The Judean Scarlet Beast and the Judean Land Beast / the False prophet were both thrown "ALIVE" into that location. In other words, those entities were composed of LIVING individuals who had NOT DIED YET. Their "weeping and gnashing of teeth" was the very human suffering that they experienced in that city before they either died of sword, disease, or starvation, or until they were captured by the Romans after the city was taken in AD 70. Christ warned His fellow Israelites on many occasions that this judgment and torment was coming for them.

He also warned them personally that the entire, seven-fold number of unclean spirits was going to descend upon the nation of Israel in its "last state" (Matthew 12:43-45). These unclean spirits were all imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem along with its besieged inhabitants, to torment the living who were trapped inside from AD 66-70, and to be tormented themselves. Jerusalem became a "habitation of devils, and a prison for every unclean spirit" (Revelation 18:2). The devils were well aware of this approaching torment for themselves, which is why they asked Jesus if He had come to torment them "before the time".

Ezekiel 28:18-19 had also predicted that God's fire in that city would be used to burn up Satan the anointed cherub to ashes on the earth so that "never shall thou exist anymore". Zechariah 13:2 also predicted that these unclean spirits would "pass out of the land" at the same time of the siege both against Judah and Jerusalem. Neither Satan nor any of his devils and unclean spirits would survive past AD 70. They were tormented in the city of Jerusalem until the end of the ages (eis ton aionon). Paul had once written that the "ends of the ages" had then arrived in the first century (1 Corinthians 10:11). The ages in which Satan and his devils had operated in the world were coming to a close back then.

Jack said:

Lets try again. I did not write the Bible!

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You are imposing the usual misunderstanding on the terms the translators chose to use. And you are not addressing the other scriptures I brought up that show how the Lake of Fire is NOT the location of eternal conscious torment for the wicked dead, as is the usual presumption.

The physical bodies of the wicked dead NEVER rise from out of the grave. Read Isaiah 26:13-19 where the fate of the wicked dead and the righteous dead are compared. For the wicked dead, "They are dead, they shall NOT LIVE; they are deceased, they shall NOT RISE; " Only the spirits of the wicked dead come before God in "the resurrection to destruction", and will then likewise share the same fate as their physical mortal remains - they are both destroyed, body and soul, in the grave. We are told to fear a God who can destroy both body and soul.

Jack said:

Yes, I see you're totally evading Jesus' comments!

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I'm evading nothing at all. I'm saying you have imposed the usual improper understanding of the terms scripture uses. If we are both looking at a different "dictionary" when reading the scriptures, then of course we will not agree. I prefer to look at the scriptures content paying close attention to the meaning behind the original language terms. Apparently you don't wish to do this.

Death for the wicked most certainly DOES include ceasing to exist. What on earth do you think the word "perish" means?? The righteous do NOT "perish", but instead have eternal life. The wicked do NOT experience eternal life of any kind whatsoever. Not even a tormented existence for eternity.

Jack said:

Should we believe you or Jesus?

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

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You cannot claim God does this.
People do this to themselves.
Also
God never has any illusion about the vast majority of people (who will not be saved).

God has never been in it for the numbers....
Nor does this exercise of creating mankind seem to be very efficient....with the vast majority going to Hell.
So....isn't a better question:
How can God be omnipotent if He is not perfectly efficient?

Omnipotence is not just a label...it's a reality. Your next breath is not at God's acquiescence but at His active support.
So how come God supports both the fire and their lives forever and ever?

(We are His creation, He gets to choose how to use us without recrimination...and who has standing to do so if God was indicted for crimes against humanity)

But also....
What skills and abilities will the wicked have if they were were to be allowed into Heaven? Would they be able to function at all? Especially since sin is not allowed in Heaven?

Am I correct in this is what you are asking?

Jack said:

Should we believe you or Jesus?

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Believing Jesus is not the same as believing your particular interpretation of what Jesus said.

Did you not notice that both day and night are still going on in this Revelation 20:10 verse? This is NOT the afterlife existence being described. It is ordinary earthly progression of time with ordinary day and night still functioning.

You seem stuck on interpreting "forever and ever" (eis ton aionon) as always being something lasting perpetually into infinity. It doesn't always mean that. For example, here is a text where "forever" only lasts until something else occurs. Isaiah 32:14 -15 wrote in judgment against Israel's land that "the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens FOR EVER, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks UNTIL the spirit be poured upon us from on high..." In this case, "forever" only lasts "UNTIL" something occurs to halt the continuation of that state.

In the Revelation 20:10 verse, that torment of Satan, the Scarlet Beast, and the False prophet was to last until the end of the ages ("eis ton aionon"). Paul wrote that the ends of the ages were THEN upon those he was writing to in 1 Cor. 10:11. "Now all these things happened unto them for examples; and they are written for our admonition, upon whom THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME." That was a first-century audience Paul was then addressing. Satan had only a "short time" and a "little season" left to operate in the world after AD 33 until he was thrown into Jerusalem's Lake of Fire where God confined him until he was destroyed in AD 70.

Satan did NOT possess immortality. God promised to slay that ancient serpent in Isaiah 27:1. Ezekiel 28:18-19 promised the manner in which Satan, the anointed cherub would be utterly destroyed to ashes on the earth. God was going to bring a fire out of the midst of Satan that would burn him up so that "never shalt thou exist anymore". You seem to think that Satan will exist perpetually into eternity in a tormented state. Scripture teaches the exact opposite.

3 Resurrections said:

Believing Jesus is not the same as believing your particular interpretation of what Jesus said.

Did you not notice that both day and night are still going on in this Revelation 20:10 verse? This is NOT the afterlife existence being described. It is ordinary earthly progression of time with ordinary day and night still functioning.

You seem stuck on interpreting "forever and ever" (eis ton aionon) as always being something lasting perpetually into infinity. It doesn't always mean that. For example, here is a text where "forever" only lasts until something else occurs. Isaiah 32:14 -15 wrote in judgment against Israel's land that "the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens FOR EVER, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks UNTIL the spirit be poured upon us from on high..." In this case, "forever" only lasts "UNTIL" something occurs to halt the continuation of that state.

In the Revelation 20:10 verse, that torment of Satan, the Scarlet Beast, and the False prophet was to last until the end of the ages ("eis ton aionon"). Paul wrote that the ends of the ages were THEN upon those he was writing to in 1 Cor. 10:11. "Now all these things happened unto them for examples; and they are written for our admonition, upon whom THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME." That was a first-century audience Paul was then addressing. Satan had only a "short time" and a "little season" left to operate in the world after AD 33 until he was thrown into Jerusalem's Lake of Fire where God confined him until he was destroyed in AD 70.

Satan did NOT possess immortality. God promised to slay that ancient serpent in Isaiah 27:1. Ezekiel 28:18-19 promised the manner in which Satan, the anointed cherub would be utterly destroyed to ashes on the earth. God was going to bring a fire out of the midst of Satan that would burn him up so that "never shalt thou exist anymore". You seem to think that Satan will exist perpetually into eternity in a tormented state. Scripture teaches the exact opposite.

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But where does this come from in scripture, in the NC?

People use OT to create doctrines that are not supportable. Like the millennial reign 3rd temple re-institutionalizing of animal sacrifices to God.

Jack said:

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell!

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No doubt.

Grace and peace to you, Jack.

Those that will burn in hell are those that reject the pardon Jesus bought for the on that Roman cross!!

Scott Downey said:

But where does this come from in scripture, in the NC?

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A promise of Satan's soon destruction is found in Romans 16:20. "And the God of peace shall crush Satan under your feet SHORTLY..."

The destruction of the evil angelic oppression over all the planet in the age that was soon coming in the first century is found in Hebrews 2:5. "For unto the angels hath he NOT put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak." The "prince of this world" was going to lose his former ability to work behind the scenes of government; corrupting them and attempting to ruin God's redemptive plans for the nations and kingdoms of the world.

The book of Hebrews goes on to describe the timing of when those evil angelic powers would be removed in Hebrews 12:26-27. "Whose voice then shook the earth: but NOW he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the REMOVING of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those thing which cannot be shaken may remain." As the "Prince of this world" (John 12:31) and as the "Prince of the power of the air" (Eph. 2:2) as well as having power over the kingdoms of this world (Luke 4:5-6) , Satan's evil realm was then going to be shaken in that first-century time frame, AND IT WOULD BE REMOVED, leaving only the kingdom of God which can never be shaken.

Revelation 12:12 was John's then-present warning to the people he was addressing in the first century that an enraged Satan had only a "short time" left to operate in this world. "...Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT TIME." That "SHORT TIME" in the first century would only last until Satan was thrown into Jerusalem's Lake of Fire where he was going to be turned into ashes upon the earth, just as God promised that formerly-anointed cherub in Ezekiel 28:18-19, so that "never shalt thou exist anymore".

Jack said:

Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

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The Source of that "everlasting fire" is the constant stream of fire issuing and coming forth from the throne of the eternal Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:10. Those "everlasting burnings" and that "devouring fire" are what the RIGHTEOUS are to dwell with on high as they "see the King in His beauty" (Isaiah 33:14-17). This stream of fire is meant to portray God's utter holiness. Nothing that is evil can survive in the presence of that "everlasting fire", but the righteous with the covering of Christ's utter holiness imputed to them are capable of living in that environment.

That torment experienced on earth by those in the "furnace of fire" that Jerusalem became in the AD 70 inferno were being tormented in the eyesight of the Lamb and the holy angels who were then present in front of them. That is exactly what the word "enopion" in Revelation 14:10 means - to be directly eye-to-eye in the presence of someone or something.

Your interpretation of what the Lake of Fire means is totally off track. These who would be weeping and gnashing their teeth in that "furnace of fire" (Matt. 13:41-42) would be pleading with Christ, "We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets." (Luke 13:26-28). That is something that only a first-century person in Israel could possibly be claiming at that point.

God said in Isaiah 31:9 that His "fire is in Zion, and His furnace in Jerusalem". This pinpoints the location of the "furnace of fire", which was in the city of Jerusalem.

Christ at one time had said, "I am come to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!" (Luke 12:39). Christ was longing to "thoroughly purge His floor" (Matt. 3:12) by burning up the chaff with His unquenchable fire. Jerusalem, and especially the temple site (the former threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite) would be thoroughly purged by the avenging Christ burning up the city of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70.

Scott Downey said:

It may be more pleasant to think hell is not eternal torment...

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Well maybe so, but it is a tormented existence throughout eternity, and we agree on that, so I'm not sure why you're saying that to me, as if I think otherwise. Certainly it will be a terrible torment to them... and unending. I mean, it's frightening (to put it mildly) to even think about at all.

Scott Downey said:

...it is eternal fiery torments.

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Yes, a fiery torment. Agree. But 'fiery'... I'm sure you know, Scott, that in chapter three of his epistle, James says "the tongue is a fire" (James 3:6), right? James is surely not saying that people's tongues are literal flames inside their mouths, right? I mean, that would be rather painful... <chuckles> I think we both know what he means by that. Now... I'm not really comparing the fire that our tongue is to the eternal fire of hell, because in the latter case, we're talking about a holy, Godly fire rather than any kind of fire that a human being can muster or inflict with his/her tongue... but it does at least start to give us some idea what this eternal fiery torment in hell really is... Again, God Himself is "a consuming fire" (Deuteronomy, Hebrews). You seem to think I'm selling this "eternal fiery torment" as far less than it really is (or will be), but no, not at all. And, with all due respect, I think you and Jack are, really, inadvertent as it may be.

Scott Downey said:

Curious as to how you think otherwise?

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I don't. Maybe you should re-read my earlier post. I think the reality of hell will be far worse than we can even imagine.

Grace and peace to you.