Is Sound Doctrine Essential for Salvation?

Hobie said:

We have people that think that all they have to do is be a part of Christian church or show up once a week to listen to the preacher and they are good, no matter what they teach. And its clear that without a proper understanding of doctrine and a knowledge of the Gospel in God’s Word, faith can be sidetracked or weakened. Just look at how the Jews thought that the Messiah was going to set up a kingdom to overthrow the Roman rule, and it was so ingrained that it took a while to clear it from even the disciples views. I have come across denominations which just about every one of its churchs has a different idea of what doctrine they get from the Bible depending on the preacher, and so what end up happening is you just keep shifting till you find one that fits your lifestyle, with no real change. Others, nobody checks what the preacher is teaching against the scripture, and he teaches his own ideas or leads them down a destructive path, or that you can keep sinning and it doesnt matter. Is that what Jesus put forth. We see the most basic elements at the start of Christs ministry...

Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So what is needed?

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Great post!

Indeed, all that is true. The good news is that even so, even though the flock has been left to be tended by householders and shepherds even doing poorly, the flock is secure in Christ, for He has not left us as orphans, but is with us through even these pitiful times. Which were to continue until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled, which are now coming to a close.

Meanwhile, we are okay to be a body of many different members, even thinking differently to some extent. Not that all is good--it's not. But this falling away that was already at work even during the times of the apostles, was to come first, and has. In the meantime, we all would do well to turn inward embracing our ties to the Holy Spirit, reading the scriptures, and yet not forsaking the gathering together of those who are drawn to Christ.

.

Simonides said:

Faith

But what kind of faith?

Many who claim to have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, have done no such thing. They have placed their faith in a caricature, or an institution, a doctrine, a praye r that they were told to recite at some emotionally charged moment in their lives, their own carnal understanding of the word of God, and many other such things. None of which, have any power at all to impart salvation to the unregenerate soul of fallen man.

Romans 10

But the righteousness of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)​

Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Anyone can open their mouth and say that they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. They can do so repeatedly, and over the course of many years. They can rearrange their lives to line up with their understanding of the scriptures. They can go to seminary, study the biblical languages, earn a doctorate in theology, pastor a church, preach on street corners, or as we often see here in this forum, devote countless hours to the never ending quest of bringing others over to their superior and enlightened point of view on a wide variety of issues. And with complete confidence, that they themselves have been enlightened to know the great mysteries of the Kingdom of God, are duty bound to impart those mysteries to others, to correct, exhort and reprove whomever may be so foolish to disagree with them. All the while, within their swollen breast, beats a heart of darkness, full of envy, bitterness and strife. Having neither the mind of Christ, or His Holy Spirit.

Romans 2

And thinkest thou this, O man, who judgest those who do such things and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But because of thy hardness and impenitence of heart, thou treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of Wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

Faith is a gift.

Ephesians 2

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Who are the recipients of this precious gift of saving faith?


Romans 8

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover, whom He predestined, those He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified; and whom He justified, those He also glorified.

It is the goodness of God which draws men to repentance, enlightening the heart of sinful man to cry out with the Psalmist;

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What goodness of God would that be S?
You mean that God is good TO SOME...
but then He dams others to hell.
Where is this good?
Please explain.
And,
could it be a different explanation other than WE ALL DESERVE HELL....
In which case,,,we should ALL GET HELL

Wouldn't that be the JUST thing to do?
Yes. I think so.

Simonides said:

Psalm 51

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Father God will never fail to hear the prayer of those who cry out to Him in true repentance, for this prayer was placed within their hearts by God Himself.

Romans 3

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes.

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So if there is none righteous . no not one....
then there is a lot of conflict in scripture.
NOAH was a righteous man.
Abraham, David, others - I could make a list if you like.
Some are even listed in Hebrews 11.

So maybe Psalm 14:1-3 is referring to something else?
Otherwise how do we resolve this terrible conflict?
YOU say there are none righteous.
THE BIBLE says otherwise.

Hobie said:

We have people that think that all they have to do is be a part of Christian church or show up once a week to listen to the preacher and they are good, no matter what they teach. And its clear that without a proper understanding of doctrine and a knowledge of the Gospel in God’s Word, faith can be sidetracked or weakened. Just look at how the Jews thought that the Messiah was going to set up a kingdom to overthrow the Roman rule, and it was so ingrained that it took a while to clear it from even the disciples views. I have come across denominations which just about every one of its churchs has a different idea of what doctrine they get from the Bible depending on the preacher, and so what end up happening is you just keep shifting till you find one that fits your lifestyle, with no real change. Others, nobody checks what the preacher is teaching against the scripture, and he teaches his own ideas or leads them down a destructive path, or that you can keep sinning and it doesnt matter. Is that what Jesus put forth. We see the most basic elements at the start of Christs ministry...

Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So what is needed?

Click to expand...

Here's what is needed Hobie:

1. Man must know that God exists.
Hebrews 11:6
6But without faith it is impossible to please Him. For he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


2. Man must obey God.

James 1:22
22But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.


John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


That's it for salvation.

GodsGrace said:

YOU say there are none righteous.
THE BIBLE says otherwise.

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No, the bible itself says both.

Verily said:

No, the bible itself says both.

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Wow.
OK
So we have a biblical conflict.
HOW to resolve??

Hobie said:

We have people that think that all they have to do is be a part of Christian church or show up once a week to listen to the preacher and they are good, no matter what they teach. And its clear that without a proper understanding of doctrine and a knowledge of the Gospel in God’s Word, faith can be sidetracked or weakened. Just look at how the Jews thought that the Messiah was going to set up a kingdom to overthrow the Roman rule, and it was so ingrained that it took a while to clear it from even the disciples views. I have come across denominations which just about every one of its churchs has a different idea of what doctrine they get from the Bible depending on the preacher, and so what end up happening is you just keep shifting till you find one that fits your lifestyle, with no real change. Others, nobody checks what the preacher is teaching against the scripture, and he teaches his own ideas or leads them down a destructive path, or that you can keep sinning and it doesnt matter. Is that what Jesus put forth. We see the most basic elements at the start of Christs ministry...

Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So what is needed?

Click to expand...

Sound Doctrine and salvation go hand-in-hand. There is no salvation without doubt doctrine which is a major issue with Christianity today. Very few people understand how to save souls, the result of flawed doctrine and ultimately leading to a false hope and lost souls. Sound Doctrine is more than preaching Jesus and Jesus saves. So, how does Jesus save? What is required to be saved?

Mk 16:15-16 is a great place to start and see what Jesus said about salvation

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Belief + baptism = salvation

What did the record of the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 say and what obviously was taught by Philip to him?

Belief, confession of belief, and water immersion (baptism).

What was the message taught in Acts 2 to the Jews on the day of Pentecost?

Belief, repentance, baptism.

So, to sum it up, sound Doctrine is that which teaches one about salvation through Christ requiring
1. Belief and faith
2. Verbal confession of one's Belief (Romans 10:8-10)
3. Repentance (Acts 2:38)
4. Baptism, immersion in water, for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38)

The above is SOUND DOCTRINE

GodsGrace said:

Wow.
OK
So we have a biblical conflict.
HOW to resolve??

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You know the answer. You have been harping on it on various posts, you resolve it when you have time and if its that important to you to take it up and lay things out. But you keep trying to make others take it up and explain it to you as some gotcha.

You will goad them this way

YOU say there are none righteous.
THE BIBLE says otherwise.

When you know the bible says both, its being dishonest doing that, you want to teach us something, open up a thread and explain what you itching to tell us without the theatrics.

Verily said:

You know the answer.

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Yes. I certainly do.
It's not me that creates conflicts in the bible...it's others.
When a person creates a conflict, they have to stop and figure out why since the BIBLE HAS NO CONFLICT IN IT or it cannot be the word of God.

Verily said:

You have been harping on it on various posts, you resolve it when you have time and if its that important to you to take it up and lay things out. But you keep trying to make others take it up and explain it to you as some gotcha.

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I don't do gotcha.
I like for persons to THINK and understand that there's something wrong with their thinking.
IF they wish to know how to resolve, I'm happy to share - but I have no PhD after my name and am not h ere to teach anyone anything

Verily said:

You will goad them this way

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Trust me V....I don't goad.
I'm here to have serious conversation.

Verily said:

YOU say there are none righteous.
THE BIBLE says otherwise.

When you know the bible says both, its being dishonest doing that, you want to teach us something, open up a thread and explain what you itching to tell us without the theatrics.

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How could the bible say both?
How could the bible say there is none righteous and then make a list of righteous persons?
I posted Psalm 14:1-5

It's necessary to read it and then understand it.

Look at verse 1.....what does it say?
THE FOOL says in his heart.

It's the FOOL that says there is no God,,,that they are corrupt and have done abominable deeds.
Who is the THEY?

See verse 4: The workers of wickedness.
See verse 5: God is with the righteous generation....so there ARE righteous person in the bible.

Some take Romans 3:10 out of context to prove to the rest of us that man is so depraved that he is unable to seek after God.
This is NOT the correct reading of Romans 3:10 and thus causes the bible to contradict itself -which is impossible.

Psalm 14:1-5 also states that all have turned aside and do not seek after God.
The same persons that state that there is none righteous, no not one, will also state that it's impossible to seek God.

Do YOU believe we can seek after God?
Need some verses?

2 John 9-11,
- Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God
He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ he hath both the Father and Son

If there come any unto you and bring not this doctrine receive him not into your house neither bid him Godspeed

For he that biddeth him Godspeed is a partaker of his evil deeds

.

Simonides said:

That's a lot of questions? But you already seem to have all the answers.

So I'll just say this about what may be perceived in our limited understanding as conflicting statements within the word of God.

When I run across what seem to be conflicting statements in scripture, the first thing I do is pray. Many times, after prayer, no further examination is required. Gods good like that. If after prayer I am still struggling with the text, I broaden the context of my study. As a text, taken out of context, can easily become a pretext. I try very hard to avoid this error. If a look into the broader context of apparently conflicting texts provides no greater understanding, then I take a look at the text as it was written in the original languages. Usually, but not in all cases, this is where many apparent conflicts will resolve themselves. If after looking into the originals, I still have not found a resolution, I dust off my commentaries, and seek the wisdom of those who have a far greater understanding of the source material than I have yet to acquire. If after all of this, I am yet unsatisfied. I give it to God, and let it go.

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This is wonderful.
So let's take what YOU posted.
YOU posted that there is none righteous - no not one.

And yet the BIBLE states that there ARE RIGHTEOUS.

So how would you explain this conflict?

If I'm not mistaken, I'd say that you must let go of many doctrine you've learned.
Since there are so many "mysteries" that must be accepted due to these conflicts that are created, which, BTW, do not exist in
mainline Christianity.

Simonides said:

What I never do, is make any attempt, to tear down those well established pillars of my faith, which have instructed, uplifted, encouraged, and sustained myself, and many many others who came before me, for generation upon generation.

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How many generations S?
Would you say from the very beginning after Jesus' death?
Or would you say the past 500 or so years?

And, you know, sometimes pillars should be torn down....
sometimes we should go where our studies take us.
But it's a fearful path to behold.

Simonides said:

As this is the preferred method of Satan himself, to bring division within the Body of Christ. And the source of nearly every heresy that has been taught since the earliest days of Christendom, the reason we have so many denominational and doctrinal differences, and the bitter root from which every Anti-Christ cult that now exists has brought forth its poisonous fruit.

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Yes, I do agree that some doctrine is satanic....I'd never use such strong language, but since you did - I'm just agreeing.
And yes, we should be careful not to be members of gnostic, heretical denominations that teach doctrine that did not exist either in the early church or to this very day in every denomination except one...

And, I don't wish to derail this thread, but yes, I also agree that heresies can be anti-Christ.
Although that's not what the word heretical means.

Simonides said:

I hope this answers your question.

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Actually it didn't.
IF you wish to explain the conflict you've brought up, that would answer my question.

YOU say that there are none righteous.
I stated that there are some righteous and gave you scripture.

YOU said that man cannot seek after God.
I can give you tens of verses that INSTRUCT man to seek after God.

Here are your exact quotes of scripture from post 3:
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


BTW, that would be another conflict.
Only one denomination states we are UNABLE to seek after God.
Yet, there are very many verses that state that this is exactly what we are to do.
So now what?


Matthew 6:33
33But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness,

Hebrews 11:6b
...6for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17
17I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
13You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Matthew 7:7-8
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.8For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Acts 17:27
27That they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him


There are plenty more.
God expects man to seek Him.
Man is ABLE to seek God.

.

GodsGrace said:

How could the bible say both?

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It does, study what appears to conflict and then share your workmanship in the word when you have all your i's dotted and t's crossed otherwise you be sniped and wrangled with until you have tied it together as perfectly as you are able to.

So, enjoy, because I have not reached that place to start laying out such perfection here.

I once met an autistic teenage girl that didn't know any scriptures but absolutely believed in and constantly praised Jesus and she is probably more filled with the Holy Spirit than everybody in this thread.

Is Sound Doctrine Essential for Salvation?​

Is a good (accurate) chart essential for negating hidden dangers? Being a mariner, I know the value of accurate charts and the danger of inaccurate ones.
Having been literally ship wrecked because of unknown information make this truth bigger than Ben Hur.

Simonides said:

Well, I'm glad you've got it all figured out.
May God richly reward you as you continue to seek His face.

"Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

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In John 12:32 Jesus stated that HE will DRAW ALL MEN to Himself.
You say that the Father draws all men to Himself.
This would require another pit stop to explain.
It would be interesting to hear your interpretation, but this is not the place.

Simonides said:

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

"We love because he first loved us. Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."

I don't come here to engage in doctrinal disputes.

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And yet you continue posting verses that CAUSE doctrinal issues.
If you post that there is none righteous, and yet the bible clearly states that there ARE righteous, beginning specifically with Noah, that is making a doctrinal issue.
We have a member on this very thread stating that it's possible for the bible to state two opposing views and both are correct!

Simonides said:

Every time I allow myself to do so, the Spirit of Christ within me grieves. I have no desire to grieve Gods Holy Spirit. I'm a work in progress, please forgive me if I have grieved your spirit in any way.

A parting prayer.

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You don't grieve my spirit S....I don't even know you.
But I am happy to hear that you don't wish to grieve the Holy Spirit.

Verily said:

It does, study what appears to conflict and then share your workmanship in the word when you have all your i's dotted and t's crossed otherwise you be sniped and wrangled with until you have tied it together as perfectly as you are able to.

So, enjoy, because I have not reached that place to start laying out such perfection here.

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Verily, I guess you forgot to read my post no. 10.
I specifically reconciled two seemingly conflicting verses for you to show that the bible CANNOT contradict itself.
And your reply is that the bible can contradict itself?
I do hope you reach that place of being able to cross the T's and dot the I's because:
The bible CANNOT have a contradiction.
It would make it unreliable.
I think God knows what He wants to communicate to us.

NotTheRock said:

I once met an autistic teenage girl that didn't know any scriptures but absolutely believed in and constantly praised Jesus and she is probably more filled with the Holy Spirit than everybody in this thread.

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I have often said that I know persons that have never read the bible and, possibly, never heard the actual gospel message, and yet they are saved.

And handicapped persons have a special place in God's heart.
I have an autustic granddaughter.
And I like to use the word handicap....everyone wants to sugar-coat the problems these children have.