No way!
But a measured 'time out' to repent for the purpose of being reconciled to their Creator. Absolutely!
Where did the Bible come from? - Shot out of a canon
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
But a measured 'time out' to repent for the purpose of being reconciled to their Creator. Absolutely!
Here's how I see that working.
Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is
speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4
]
MA2444
Well-Known Member
1) I'm in this camp because that seems to be what the text says.. But it also talks about refining in the fire, soo...who knows if they cook in the lake of fire long enough will they eventually be purified enough to come out? Prolly not.
2) That's a nutso doctrine.
3) That's almost as nutsi as #2 but I'm not 100% positive because it says something about ...and I have not lost even one that you gave me...or something like that.
What these 3 doctrine say collectively about the character of God is...That His ways are above our ways so we have trouble comprehending it.
Yes He sure did. Because the last god standing...is already God! God will destroy all of the evil and all of the evil people.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
No it is not! He is a merciful God. But He is a just and Holy God so that will require punishment for the sins.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
God's reasoning that the wicked will die.
Ezekiel 18:21-23 - “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:21-23 - “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
The righteous will not die?
What kind of death are we talking about here?
Read the underlined bit again.
Physical, or spiritual death?
If spiritual; in this life or the afterlife?
Where is "under the earth"? (the realm of the dead = Sheol) Scripture below.
Who is there? (the dead)
How many will "acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord"? (every tongue)
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
]
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
God spoke through the prophet Ezekiel, so it's God's word; only God can answer your question.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Who held torah and from whence did it come . YET was GOD well pleased with many
even though they held the torah . NOPE .
From whence came the bible . Inspired of GOD torah was
and later the apostels left us letters and some gospels too .
It aint their fault the RCC came about and though
it did hold the scrips , didnt live by them or teach the whole word of that counsle .
as with the jew so too with the RCC . the leaders sold out and though they still had torah
and though the RCC still had the bible , HECK they didnt heed it . they taught rather doctrines of men
and decieved those who sat under them . THANKS for bringing this topic up steven . ITS A GOOD one to talk about .
It does not matter if it is physical or spiritual death, they are dead while they live..
1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in PLEASURE is dead while she liveth.
2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2 Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
What do you make of this?
Luke 20:38 NIV
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
]
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
My dear brother:
Thanks for your post. I want to share these thoughts with you:
We have to be careful of not taking the Name of Jesus as an amulet.
There is no magical power in pronouncing a given sentence or name.
The power resides in the Holy Spirit that changes the way we think, talk and act.
In the Gospel we read that evil spirits were also able to confess verbally that Jesus was The Son of God.
In the Book of Acts, we find a magician, Simon, thinking that Paul was able to work miracles using some trick, some formula, some secret that could be shared in exchange for money.
Religion should not be superstition.
IN the verses you have quoted, verbal confessions are presented as an external manifestation of an internal change.
It is just like baptism. A person who repented sincerely and chose to follow Jesus was baptized, but there was no intrinsic power in the water to purify the soul or make the person be born again.
Let's always keep salvation as an undeserved gift of God to those that come to Him with a humble, contrite heart.
Thanks for joining the discussion.
Agree, but what do the scriptures I shared say about that?
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is
speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
But did they declare him Lord?
Agree. Yet a verbal confession is required of a maturing Christian. And preferable at conversion. (as the scripture provided indicates)
Agree. Except nix the "humble and contrite heart" requirement. (unnecessary) That comes later. (hopefully)
]
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Where did the Bible come from? - Shot out of a canon
Nah nah, shot out of a particular culture!
Yup... makes you wonder... ???
I suppose it was necessary. What began as an oral tradition, would need documentation to carry on. (in human terms)
But what would have happened if people had to depend on hearing directly from God instead of reading about him in a book?
I think oftentimes the book (or the church) stands in the way of a direct relationship. Thus supplanting what we REALLY need.
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap. I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?" The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come? To be clear, I love the Bible and use...
www.christianityboard.com
]
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Why knock the book?Yup... makes you wonder... ???
I suppose it was necessary. What began as an oral tradition, would need documentation to carry on. (in human terms)
But what would have happened if people had to depend on hearing directly from God instead of reading about him in a book?
I think oftentimes the book (or the church) stands in the way of a direct relationship. Thus supplanting what we REALLY need.
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap. I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?" The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come? To be clear, I love the Bible and use...
]
'if they don't believe Moses and the Prophets they won't believe even if one rose from the dead'......Jesus
There are many many things misunderstood. In most cases the ignorance of the cultural norms under which the scriptures were written but also the assumption that it is suitable practice to project ones own cultural understandings onto these ancient writings. This is done without even realising it is done.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Hi, St. SteVen and friends all
How do we reconcile that the evil spirits declared Jesus "Son of Almighty God", with Pau'ls statement about a verbal pronunciation of "Jesus is Lord", as evidence of the action of the Holy Spirit?
How do we reconcile these two things?
Is it that there is something special in the sounds or letters of the word "Lord" that is not present in the sounds of "Son of God"?
I believe it has nothing to do with the word itself, but with the reason why the person is pronouncing that.
Jesus Himself declared that many people who called them "Lord" will be rejected due to their wrongdoings, because He wanted to be considered Lord through our obedience.
A lord is a person who rules over others. If we let Jesus rule in our lives, we care declaring Him Lord.
Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”
Jesus stresses that salvation is not about using His Name, but about honoring His Name, not doing evil.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Mat 7:22,23)
I am not sure I'm understanding you. My apologies in advance. Perhaps I didn't get what "nix" means.
Coming to God with a humble and contrite heart is essential for justification.
Jesus explained that in the story of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14)
Last edited:
Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge...
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
Agree.
St. SteVen said:
Agree. Except nix the "humble and contrite heart" requirement. (unnecessary) That comes later. (hopefully)
In my post, the word "nix" means remove, or nullify.
I would say that justification, in general, comes without a humble and contrite heart.
"While we were yet sinners..." Christ justified us.
Our justification is not a reward for a a humble and contrite heart. (salvation by works)
]
Similar threads
