No authority!

[marks]

Matt. 10:1,40 – Jesus declares to His apostles, “he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me.” Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION - Scripture Catholic

My comment:

There is no transfer of authority here. Identification, yes.

It's like when Jesus asked Saul, Why are you persecuting me?

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 – the apostles are given Christ’s authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION - Scripture Catholic

My comment:

While there remains the question if that was actually what Jesus was saying, considering that the actually wording there is, "what you bind on earth will be having been bound in heaven", which more means that their decisions will reflect what God has already determined, but even so, there is no mention of transferability.

Luke 9:1; 10:19 – Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION - Scripture Catholic

God gave them a mission, and equiped them for it. But there is no mention that the Apostles grant others this authority.



Um . . . are these ALL like that?

Much love!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Succeeded in what sense? The priesthood? Penning Scripture? Going into unevangelized areas and sharing the Gospel? That would be the direct meaning of apostle. Sent one.

We call them missionaries now.

Much love!

"Apostle" wasn't just an "appointmemt" - it was an office - and offices are successive.

In Acts 1:20, Peter references Psalm 109 when he says, "Let another take his office".
The Greek word used here for "office" is Episkopay (Bishopric).

Matthias was chosen to succeed Juda's OFFICE of Bishop. The Apostles, in turn, appointed other Bishops.
For example, Peter appointed Ignatius to succeed him in Antioch - and Linus to succeed him in Rome. We read sabout this lineage of the Bishops of Rome in Irenaeus's 2nd century work, Against Heresies, where he lists all of them from his day all the way back to Peter.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Tell me, then - WHY there are literally tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different and competing doctrines - yet YOU claim that ALL were led to this "discernment" by the Holy Spirit?

I've been very careful to say 'true believers' are the ones who have the anointing of discernment. Protestant churches are full of unsaved, fake believers just like the Catholic church is. No organized church, Protestant or Catholic, is the true church in the world today. The true 'church' of Jesus doesn't exist in an identifiable body of assembled believers at this time in history. The point being, the competing doctrines of the anti-Catholics doesn't mean none of us have the anointing of the Spirit to discern truth. It means there are lots of fake believers in the Protestant churches who don't have the believer's power of discernment just as there are in the Catholic church.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And that's where you're wrong.

Christian character according to the fruit of the Spirit counts far and above the creation of and obedience to official doctrines and liturgy that one considers the only doctrine and liturgy that God approves of and makes you pleasing to him. I can tell you do not know this.

 

[Illuminator]

Then I also believe our sins are forgiven in Christ, so we don't return for more forgiveness.

You're missing the point completely.

If you truly don't see an exclusivity in this doctrine, that other churches aren't real or valid, not having priests to hear confession and to bless the Eucharist, that removes a great deal of my objection.

Catholic exclusivity is a straw man fallacy. In fact, Catholicism is far more inclusive than you may be aware. Scroll to paragraphs #817-820.

I'd want to make certain that Jesus' followers know that they have a direct and full and open relationship with God Himself, and that the true forgiveness, and grace to stand, comes directly from Him.

No disagreement there. But I don't think you're getting it.

 

[Illuminator]

The testimony of the early Church is deafening in its unanimous (yes, unanimous) assertion of apostolic succession. Far from being discussed by only a few, scattered writers, the belief that the apostles handed on their authority to others was one of the most frequently and vociferously defended doctrines in the first centuries of Christianity.
What is the biblical support for apostolic succession?

 

[marks]

You're missing the point completely.

Catholic exclusivity is a straw man fallacy. In fact, Catholicism is far more inclusive than you may be aware. Scroll to paragraphs #817-820.
No disagreement there. But I don't think you're getting it.

The exclusivity, I've been told by Catholics on this forum that my church communion is worthless, meaningless, not being blessed by a priest. And that I'm deluded not being in the Catholic church. I wouldn't call it a straw man, but I'm glad you aren't that way.

:)

What point am I missing?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Matthias was chosen to succeed Juda's OFFICE of Bishop. The Apostles, in turn, appointed other Bishops.

Not succeed, replace. There is a difference. Let another take his place.

Much love!

 

[theefaith]

The doctrine does not appear so far as I can find. Ephesians 2 tells me that we who were far away are now brought near. Acts 17 tells me that He wants me to search for Him, to find Him, He's not far. Romans 10 tells me the words of faith are in my very mouth, I need only speak them. There are many more.

And yes, I do have a personal covenant with Jesus.

He offered that any who are weary and heavily burdened to come to Him, and He would give them rest. So I came to Him, per His offer, and He has given me rest.

Much love!

then it’s not your personal covenant or salvation

there’s only one new covenant
And salvation is in common Jude 1:3
Communion of saints

Matt 28:19 make disciples of all nations
How without successors are the apostles going to do that? The us was not a nation for 1700 years after the apostles so there must be successors
Matt 28:20 I am with you (the apostles) till the end, so the apostles must continue until the end

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments




Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


Successors of Jesus Christ!

Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the successors or the apostles until the end of the age, so the successors must remain until the end of the age) matt 28:19

(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)


Successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


apostolic succession!

explicit and implicit in scripture

Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Matthias succeeded him as apostle

acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

 

[theefaith]

So then what do you make of the fact that this passage in Ephesians uses the word for "saved"?

Much love!

refers to redemption

 

[theefaith]

Which says?

One mind one heart unity

 

[GISMYS_7]

no it says quote:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

this Cannot refer to salvation

I must believe and confess but here it says not of yourselves!!

belief and confession are of myself
Volition choose to do so

if it is only by Christ is refers to redemption!!

A gift is not a gift if you reject it!!!

 

[Illuminator]

2 Timothy 2:1-3 KJV
1) Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2) And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3) Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

Isn't this passage about being taught and teaching others?

edit to add . . . as I look at this passage, that's what it is. Paul teaches Timothy, and charges Timothy to teach others, who will likewise teach. But there is no transfer of authority here.

Much love!

Paul teaches Timothy, and charges Timothy to teach others, who will likewise teach. This is precisely what the transfer of authority means. You define it and the you say it's not there. The authority is transferred by the laying on of hands by a bishop, not by a committee.

Acts 6:6 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 – even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a bishop, not by a committee who hires a pastor.

Acts 14:23 – the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 – preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 – Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 – Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 – Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 – again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

"But there is no transfer of authority here". Seriously??? I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink.

 

[Illuminator]

First of all - THANK YOU for correctly using the abbreviation "CC" instead of "RCC" as so many people ignorantly do.

Yes, lying bigots like Matt Slick do it constantly.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not succeed, replace. There is a difference. Let another take his place.

And therein lies your confusion.

For starters, the NT was NOT written in English - but Koine Greek. The Greek word used here is Episkopay (Bishopric).
The word in Psalm 109:8 is פקדתו (pek-ood-daw'), which means: "oversight, charge, office, overseer, class of officers"

Matthias was chosen to rake the office - the BISHOPRIC of Judas. This is not a mere "replacemet" - but a succession.
Here is a challenge for you: Name one "office" that is NOT successive.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I've been very careful to say 'true believers' are the ones who have the anointing of discernment. Protestant churches are full of unsaved, fake believers just like the Catholic church is. No organized church, Protestant or Catholic, is the true church in the world today. The true 'church' of Jesus doesn't exist in an identifiable body of assembled believers at this time in history. The point being, the competing doctrines of the anti-Catholics doesn't mean none of us have the anointing of the Spirit to discern truth. It means there are lots of fake believers in the Protestant churches who don't have the believer's power of discernment just as there are in the Catholic church.

Sooooo, according to YOUR logic - not only the Cathollic Church but NONE of the Protestant sects have the anointing of "true discernment" - and this belongs ONLY to an "invisible" body of believers.
That's about the most asinine and Scripturally-bankrupt thing you've said so far.

Jesus said explicitly and plainly:
Matt. 5:14-15
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.

Christ's Church is a VISIBLE Body - not some "hidden" gaggle of ingognito believers living in the shadows as YOU posit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Christian character according to the fruit of the Spirit counts far and above the creation of and obedience to official doctrines and liturgy that one considers the only doctrine and liturgy that God approves of and makes you pleasing to him. I can tell you do not know this.

What do YOU kow about doctrine OR liturgy - or obedience, for that matter??
You make up your OWN as you go along, as you illustrate in just about every post.

YOU talk about the "fruit of the Spirit" like it means something to you - while you spread your dishonest manure all over this forum.
Good job . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Sooooo, according to YOUR logic - not only the Cathollic Church but NONE of the Protestant sects have the anointing of "true discernment" - and this belongs ONLY to an "invisible" body of believers.
That's about the most asinine and Scripturally-bankrupt thing you've said so far.

Only true believers have the Holy Spirit and, therefore, the power to discern which teachers are teaching them the truth, and which teachers are not. The parable of the weeds in the field show us that there is no pure field of believers in this world—Catholic or anti-Catholic. Fake believers exist among the true believers so that you can't identify any one pure field of God. The true body of believers are spread out in the fields of the world among the unbelievers.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Christ's Church is a VISIBLE Body - not some "hidden" gaggle of ingognito believers living in the shadows as YOU posit.

Only individual true believers are visible, not whole assemblies of believers, for the reason I gave above. Positions of power and wealth always attract unbelievers and corrupt our business model assemblies. So as long as we keep setting up church businesses we will never see a pure body of assembled believers. Only pure individual believers that may or may not attend those churches, spread out to the four corners of the world.

"good deeds are obvious, and even the ones that are inconspicuous cannot remain hidden." 1 Timothy 5:25​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What do YOU kow about doctrine OR liturgy - or obedience, for that matter??
You make up your OWN as you go along, as you illustrate in just about every post.

This is how we are supposed to meet.....

26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church.27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two, or at most three, should speak in turn, and someone must interpret. 28But if there is no interpreter, he should remain silent in the church and speak only to himself and God.29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is seated, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace—as in all the churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:26-33​

Let me know when the one and only true and accurate Catholic church starts obeying Paul's counsel.