No authority!

[BreadOfLife]

I showed you that He did, lol. But you just refuse to accept it. That's why there are Catholics and why there are anti-Catholics. Accept it! You stay on your side of the fence and we'll stay on ours.

Uhhhhh, NO - you didn't.
Matt. 18:15-17, 19-20 is about resolving sins against YOU by a brother.
Verses 17-18 are about the Church's Authority over the situation when it fails.

NOWHERE in the Scriptures do we find that the Laity has the oower to forgive the sins of OTHERS when they have nothing to do with YOU personally.
We DO, however, see that this power is given to the Clergy, as we read in 1 Cor. 12:12-20, 2 Cor. 2:10 and James 5:16.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Authority of Scripture is Clear.
No. Nothing in Scripture needs be thrown out.
No. I did not make that statement, nor do I accept YOU making that claim FOR me.

Absolutely - just not "SOLE" Authority . . .

That notice was the very Scripture following the Verse you referenced.
70 particular men sent out, that the Lord appointed. And those 70 returned with report.

• Ideas of The Who the 70 were is one thing...
• Titles of the 70 is another thing...
• Exactly which cities the 70 returned to is another thing...
• Deciding To Establish an exclusive NAME for Christ's Church is another thing...
T Deciding to Establish an exclusive NAME for Christ's Church Members is another thing.

Hippolytus (of Rome) "works"? (Of identifying BY NAME, the 70 sent out by Jesus?)
• And where exactly are "his works" (to be found?) whereby one can READ, his authorship and SOURCES, for his works of Naming the 70, Titles, Locations?

Sooooo, you believe what you read in history about people like Charlemagne or Napolean or Alexander the Great without question - but just NOT anything by the Early Church Fathers, who constantly prove you WRONG.

The smell of desperation is in the air . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

• All Scripture is True.
• Rightly Dividing Scripture, is Expressly Applicability.
• Applicability, is Expressly per Individual.
Clearly...
1 Pet 2:
[21] For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
[22] Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
[23] Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
[24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
[25] For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Clearly, the sheep "going astray" were Jews/Tribes, have "had" God in their Lives, leading them...and wandered off "following" Heathen WAYS.

Jesus came SEEKING the Jews...
Jesus sent out men to continue His seeking.
First in the Synogogs of Jews.
Then to the Jews having lost Godly Adherence.
Later men were sent out to the Gentiles.

Disciples, Disciples of Disciples, Believing Men with the Word of God in their Mouth...
Speaking to the Ears of any willing Listeners...
Christ the Lords Word, Truth, Salvation, Quickening, Example....Follow HIM...
According TO HIS Word.

* The SPEAKERS, (assuming whatever Position...assuming whatever TITLE )
HAD and HAVE an appointed DUTY...

* Their Number ONE DUTY is Conducting "themselves" according TO The "Word OF" Christ Jesus and Preaching the "Word OF" Christ Jesus TO Willing Listeners.

* sure any man assuming a LEADERSHIP position among a GROUP of Listeners...is a weighty TASK... and "their Position among "that Group"...IS paramount to "that group"...
That the one Appointed and Assuming "that position"... IS "LEADING"...EXPRESSLY According to the Word of God.

* sure any man assuming a LEADERSHIP position ... would be "interested" ... want some knowledge... what He is Teaching/Preaching ... IS the Same others ... in other "locations" ARE Teaching/Preaching TO "their" Listeners.

* The Chosen Disciples of Jesus... had believing men, learning from Jesus' Disciples, also being sent out to Cities to Teach willing Listeners.

* Some of those "secondary Disciples" became appointed "Leaders" of Groups Listening and Believing... the Groups "meeting" in fields, homes, buildings...as called "a Church"... wherever "they" gathered was "the gathering of Christ's Church."

• Polycarp is claimed to have been a Disciple of Apostle John.
• Ignatius is claimed to be a "comtemporary" of Polycarp...(implying Ignatius and Polycarp had somewhat similar "Status" of A Leadership Position.)

• Little is known about Ignatius (a Gentile) personally...
However his "ideas" and "advocacy" of a combined Earthly Governmental and Religious type hierarchical appears to be a well embraced and modeled structure... of Gentiles, who call themselves "Catholics", and bestowed "Sainthood upon Ignatius".

Where in Scripture did Jesus teach...the combining of Government and Religion?

Where in Scripture did Jesus teach to promote Anti-Jewish, if the Jews did not Conform and Believe Jesus is their Christ Messiah?

I agree - ALL Scripture IS true.
The many perverted interpretations that surfaced after the 16th century are NOT.

It ALWAYS cracks me up how Scripturally-ignorant people like yourself have to denigrate and downplay the importance of the Early Church Fathers, as if they were nothing but a bunch of infidels and heathens simply to justify YOUR asinine conclusions.
These were the guys who were butchered or fed alive to lions (like Ignatius) fror their faith in Christ. But because they don't substantiate YOUR manure - they're just a bunch of corrupt losers.

They are MORE alive than YOU are because they've been made perfect in Heaven.
YOURE still being worked on . . .

 

[theefaith]

And yet, you STILL can't refute the passages I presented that prove you wrong.
Jesus is the HIGH Priest (Heb. 4:14-16) - the fulfillment of Aaron Himself.

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Not according to the priesthood of Aaron

heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
What profession? That of priest, low priests!

 

[theefaith]

lying to Peter is equal to lying to the Holy Spirit

 

[theefaith]

Sorry see acts 5

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And we don’t obtain mercy by being merciful Matt 5
Or forgiveness by charity
Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much:

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
(Even above “Faith alone”?)

You don't obtain a legal declaration of righteousness (justification) by being merciful or by being charitable. A legal declaration of righteousness is obtained by believing in Christ apart from works.

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:3​

...to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:5

...to whom God credits righteousness apart from works... Romans 4:6

These scriptures are why you are Catholic and we are not. We believe that a man is declared legally righteous (justified) before God by faith apart from the merit of works. You do not believe that.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So does the Bible

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

Water Baptism has no saving power. It is only trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus as payment for ones sins that saves a soul.

Baptism is a work and we are saved apart from works!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Not biblical
Faith and baptism = born again

Water baptism is for believers (Acts 8:12, Acts 8:37). And because they believe they are already born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit through their faith, apart from their works, when they are then water baptized (Ephesians 1:13). What they may have not received is the overflow of the Spirit.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

scripture that’s says this

there is no verse that says “accept Jesus as your personal savior “???????

There are references to a person 'receiving' the gospel. 'Accept', 'receive' take your pick. Both result in justification leading to salvation.

covenant requires an outward sign for initiation
I.e. baptism

Not for initiation, but for identification. Like how circumcision was a 'sign' that you were in covenant with God, not a work to put you into covenant with God. You get in covenant first before you have the sign of being in that covenant. The sign does not put you into covenant with God. That's the very mistake the Jews made about circumcision. They turned circumcision, the sign of the covenant, into works to be in the covenant. That's what Catholics do with water baptism. They turned it into a work instead of it being what it is, a sign of the covenant (Remember, baptism is for believers. Believers are already in covenant with God by virtue of their faith apart from their works).

 

[theefaith]

You don't obtain a legal declaration of righteousness (justification) by being merciful or by being charitable. A legal declaration of righteousness is obtained by believing in Christ apart from works.

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:3​

...to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4:5

...to whom God credits righteousness apart from works... Romans 4:6

These scriptures are why you are Catholic and we are not. We believe that a man is declared legally righteous (justified) before God by faith apart from the merit of works. You do not believe that.

only declared righteous not really righteous

Christ and the covenant still requires faith and baptism

 

[theefaith]

Water Baptism has no saving power. It is only trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus as payment for ones sins that saves a soul.

Baptism is a work and we are saved apart from works!

that’s why it says: “baptism now SAVES you”

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[theefaith]

Water baptism is for believers (Acts 8:12, Acts 8:37). And because they believe they are already born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit through their faith, apart from their works, when they are then water baptized (Ephesians 1:13). What they may have not received is the overflow of the Spirit.

then just admit it baptism s totally meaningless!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

that’s why it says: “baptism now SAVES you”

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

And it is the Spirit baptism that regenerates a man not being dunked in water. (dipping don't count by the way)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

no it say NOT BY FAITH ALONE!
no by works alone either

Did you not understand my explanation about the two different definitions of 'justified' that Paul and James are using? If you understood it you'd understand the difference between faith 'apart from works' (Paul's argument), and faith 'alone' (James' argument). Justification is entirely by faith all by itself apart from the merit of works (Paul's argument). But it is also clear that if you don't have any works you don't have Paul's justification apart from works (James' argument).

Being baptized into Christ in the new covenant with the grace of God makes all our actions meritorious!

This is exactly why you are Catholic and we are not. You go against Paul and say that works merit God declaring you (making you) legally righteous before God. That's not how Abraham was made legally righteous, and neither are we. Paul spells this out very, very plainly in scripture. But a corrupt Catholic church suppressed this truth for centuries.

phil 1:29 not called to faith alone but to continue the redemption of Christ

Suffering for Christ is the result of believing in Christ. Suffering plays no part in obtaining a legal declaration of right standing with God. It shows you have obtained a legal declaration of right standing with God already, by faith apart from your works. The fruit of the Spirit (patient suffering in this case) is the result of already being in legal right standing with God (justified) by faith apart from any work whatsoever. The works simply signify the relationship you already have with God, just as circumcision is the sign, not the procurer, of the covenant as the blind Jews mistakenly believed. The Catholics make this exact mistake with water baptism.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Absolutely - just not "SOLE" Authority . . .

Sooooo, you believe what you read in history about people like Charlemagne or Napolean or Alexander the Great without question - but just NOT anything by the Early Church Fathers, who constantly prove you WRONG.

The smell of desperation is in the air . . .

Not sole, but teh absolute authority by which even popes must submit themselves to or be called out for veering away from it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

would Abraham have been justified if he refused circumcision or to offer Isaac?

His lack of obedience would either be proof that he was never really legally justified in the first place, or he stopped believing somewhere along the line and was no longer legally justified. Take your pick. The absence of works, which James calls 'dead faith', signifies the absence of the Spirit in justification/salvation. That's why dead faith is not saving faith. And why his argument is a different matter altogether than Paul's faith 'apart from works' argument.

 

[Taken]

acts 2:42 they held to the doctrine of the apostles not the Bible alone

And what was the Doctrine of the Apostles?
Same as Jesus' or something else?

 

[theefaith]

And it is the Spirit baptism that regenerates a man not being dunked in water. (dipping don't count by the way)

It’s all one ritual
Water words grace spirit

 

[theefaith]

Did you not understand my explanation about the two different definitions of 'justified' that Paul and James are using? If you understood it you'd understand the difference between faith 'apart from works' (Paul's argument), and faith 'alone' (James' argument). Justification is entirely by faith all by itself apart from the merit of works (Paul's argument). But it is also clear that if you don't have any works you don't have Paul's justification apart from works (James' argument).


This is exactly why you are Catholic and we are not. You go against Paul and say that works merit God declaring you (making you) legally righteous before God. That's not how Abraham was made legally righteous, and neither are we. Paul spells this out very, very plainly in scripture. But a corrupt Catholic church suppressed this truth for centuries.


Suffering for Christ is the result of believing in Christ. Suffering plays no part in obtaining a legal declaration of right standing with God. It shows you have obtained a legal declaration of right standing with God already, by faith apart from your works. The fruit of the Spirit (patient suffering in this case) is the result of already being in legal right standing with God (justified) by faith apart from any work whatsoever. The works simply signify the relationship you already have with God, just as circumcision is the sign, not the procurer, of the covenant as the blind Jews mistakenly believed. The Catholics make this exact mistake with water baptism.

does christ make mistakes Mk 16:16
acts 8 faith And baptism


We are saved
By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)?
By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)?
By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)?
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)?
By declaring with our mouths (Lu 12:8; Rom 10:9)?
By coming to a knowledge of the Truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)?
By maintaining the faith (Col 1:22-23; Mt 24:13)?
By works (John 5:28-29; Rom 2:6, 7; James 2:24)?
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)?
By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)?
By His righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)?
By His cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?