For free will believers out there

[Jane_Doe22]

That sounds good. But what about those who died at infancy?

Tong
R2222

Same: opportunity to grow up and choose.

 

[Tong2020]

Same: opportunity to grow up and choose.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Consider that truth.

Tong
R2223

 

[Tong2020]

God's choice and man's choice intersect at the crucifixion of Christ. No doubt the activity of the Holy Spirit is the causation of the sinner's choice to believe in Christ as Lord and Saviour, and God's foreknowledge of this choice is the causation of their being ordained to eternal life.

Quote From Believer's Bible Commentary

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Divine election and human responsibility are both scriptural truths, and neither should be emphasized at the expense of the other. While there seems to be a conflict between the two, this conflict exists only in the human mind, and not in the mind of God.

<<<God's foreknowledge of this choice is the causation of their being ordained to eternal life.>>>

Come to think about that, if that were the case, that God’s foreknowledge is the basis for their being ordained or appointed to eternal life, what is God’s purpose in doing that, when what God see in their future that they will believe even without that?

Tong
R2224

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Tong2020 said: People who have love for him are those who God had loved first.[/Quote\]
This isn't true, God loved us before we had love for him, because God loved the world of mankind before the world of mankind even came into existence. You see God loved life so much he wanted to share that life with others, so he started bringing other person's into existence. This included the world of mankind.
Also, even though the world of mankind was the True God enemy he still loved the world of Mankind so much that he sent his Only-begotten Son to die for the world of mankind so that all who exercised faith in him would not perish but have Everlasting life.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: People who have love for him are those who God had loved first.[/Quote\]
This isn't true, God loved us before we had love for him, because God loved the world of mankind before the world of mankind even came into existence. You see God loved life so much he wanted to share that life with others, so he started bringing other person's into existence. This included the world of mankind.
Also, even though the world of mankind was the True God enemy he still loved the world of Mankind so much that he sent his Only-begotten Son to die for the world of mankind so that all who exercised faith in him would not perish but have Everlasting life.

This is what I said:

“People who have love for him are those who God had loved first.”

You said in reply:

“This isn't true, God loved us before we had love for him,...,.”

What isn’t true in what I said?

Tong
R2226

 

[Tong2020]

Good point.

Jesus went and preached unto the dead before his resurrection. This was a one time happening.

However I do not worry about a hypothetical; I know that God is just and will save all who will be saved. No one will be lost who didn’t deserve to be lost.

No one is unreachable; nothing is too hard for the Lord.

I have faith in that.

I do not subscribe to the view that Jesus went and preached unto the dead before his resurrection. For after death, is judgment, not anything else, for them who died already.

<<<No one is unreachable; nothing is too hard for the Lord.>>>

I agree. But does not not give me reason to believe what I see as not taught in scriptures, that Jesus preached to those who had died or to the dead. Preaching is for those living.

Also @Ronald Nolette

Tong
R2227

 

[Tong2020]

I believe that as well. I also believe as you that God will save all who will be saved.

However even the saved desereve to be lost forever. We have been given a gift we didn't earn, can't earn, didn't deserve. It was given freely to us.

<<<However even the saved desereve to be lost forever. >>>

What do you mean to say by that? That seems to be problematic.

Tong
R2228

 

[Tong2020]

The first answer is no! we are not all Gods people!

As God clearly teaches in ephesians 2 we are by nature children of disobdience! And you forget John 1:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We have to be BORN AGAIN in order to become a child of God!

Also @101G

I agree that not all mankind are God’s people.

The view that all mankind (fallen) are God’s people go against the truth revealed in scriptures.

Tong
R2228

 

[justbyfaith]

Also @101G

I agree that not all mankind are God’s people.

The view that all mankind (fallen) are God’s people go against the truth revealed in scriptures.

Tong
R2228

There is a sense in which all of humankind are God's people: we are all His offspring (Acts of the Apostles 17:28)

 

[Tong2020]

Tell me Justbyfaith what is Genesis 3:15 talking about, or are you ignorant of that faith too. Faith in The True God is what makes a person righteous in the the eyes of the True God. The first prophecy of the scriptures is Genesis 3:15. We are to exercise faith in that prophecy that the True God made because that prophecy is how the True God is going to undo everything that Satan has done and will do. It's how The True God is saving the world of mankind. Genesis 3:15 is a promise from The True God of a redeemer, that redeemer is Jesus Christ. Like I said exercising faith in the True God is what makes a person righteous to the True God. I don't expect you to believe in that kind of faith Justbyfaith. You knew about Genesis 3:15 and you try to make out that The True God didn't make this prophecy and you try to make out that this prophecy wasn't about a promise of a redeemer.

<<<Faith in The True God is what makes a person righteous in the the eyes of the True God. >>>

Agree.

But regarding Gen.3:15, it is part of the curse spoken to Satan, the serpent, starting at verse 14, because of his deception of Eve. That it will come to pass that he will be destroyed by the seed of the woman.

Of course with the deceiver destroyed, mankind will have been freed from the lies and what is left will be only the truth.

I don’t see that as an undoing of what had already been done, but a defeating of the evil one and the taking away of the evil he brought into the world, the world of mankind.

And I don’t see that, at least in my reading, as so much have to do with the salvation of fallen mankind, but more of having to do with the destruction of Satan and of evil. Though in a sense, such will be a sort of saving fallen mankind from the reign of Satan over them.

Tong
R2229

 

[Tong2020]

Our calling is the Great Commission. How each of us specifically go about spreading the Good News is a different calling.

Jesus command to NOT resist evil is universal. We are in no way called to seek out and destroy evil. In fact, we are prohibited from doing that. See Romans 12:9-21

<<<Jesus command to NOT resist evil is universal.>>>

What I know is that we are not to resist good.

If then what you contend is true as well, then there is nothing left to resist. And I could not see it that way. It either we resist the evil and resist not the good.

Tong
R2230

 

[Tong2020]

So, in your estimation, all babies who die are damned?

And if they are or not?

Tong
R2231

 

[Tong2020]

I hold to what the scriptures teach within themselves:

Job 3:11,13,17-19
[11] Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? [13] For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, [17] There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. [18] There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. [19] The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

All who died in the Old Testament were in the place Job described inspired by the Spirit of God.

Messiahs purpose, as prophesied here:

Isaiah 42:6-7
[6] I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; [7] To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Zechariah 9:11
As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Was to bring out these prisoners (all the dead in Old Testament who will believe the gospel when Messiah preached to them).

And here the scriptures specifically detail that this happened before Christ went up to heaven:

1 Peter 3:18-20
[18] For Christ... [19] ...preached unto the spirits in prison; [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

And to be clear, I do not believe that Christ is still preaching to the dead today, nor do I believe in purgatory, nor am I a Catholic.

All the living after his resurrection must hear the gospel before the end comes:

Matthew 24:14
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I believe in this:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

You take reference to 1 Pet.3:18-20. If we have Hebrews 9:27, must not the Christian reader interpret that seemingly difficult passage with the truth in Hebrews 9:27? To interpret it isolated from that might result to a wrong understand, which some had done so.

Also, if one interprets the passage as having Jesus preached to the dead, that will only be to the people of Noah’s generation. How about the people before that? How about the people after that but before the time of Jesus? Why were they not included? That simple analysis tells is that such interpretation is faulty. But what really makes it false is the truth in Hebrews 9:27.

Tong
R2232

 

[Tong2020]

There is a sense in which all of humankind are God's people: we are all His offspring (Acts of the Apostles 17:28)

I don’t think so.

The fact that God is the creator of all make God in that sense the Father of all, but not all are children of God or the people of God.

Tong
R2233

 

[justbyfaith]

I don’t think so.

The fact that God is the creator of all make God in that sense the Father of all, but not all are children of God or the people of God.

Tong
R2233

I said in a specific sense all are children of God. That is, all are created by Him.

In another sense only those who believe in Christ are children of the Lord. For they are spiritually His children.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

This is what I said:

“People who have love for him are those who God had loved first.”

You said in reply:

“This isn't true, God loved us before we had love for him,...,.”

What isn’t true in what I said?

Tong
R2226

You are wrong because before God created mankind he loved us. We can't love God if we don't exist yet.
In post # 379 where you first said, "People who have love for him are those who God had loved first.” I was talking about those who are faithful to God are those who love God. Now we know that not all people are faithful so I honestly can't say that all people love God because if they did they would be exercising faith in him because of their love for him. The point is God loved life so much he wanted to give life to others. Since God gave life to mankind he loved all mankind before he created mankind. Even after creating mankind after mankind had fallen into sin he still loved mankind so much that he sent his Only-Begotten Son to die for all of mankind and at that time the world of mankind was God enemies. So God has always loved all mankind not just the ones who love him and are exercising faith in him now. He loves all mankind so much he doesn't want anyone to perish so he's allowing time for others to show their love by exercising faith in him.

 

[Tong2020]

So then, since no one knows who is elect and who is non-elect, we ought to tell people that if they will receive Christ, it will cause them to be of the elect.

Yes, no one knows who the chosen are. No, one’s genuine believing in Christ does not cause him to be of the elect. Rather, one’s genuine believing in Christ manifest him to be one of those chosen by the Father whom He has given to the Son to raise up at the last day.

Really, if you are going to believe in Calvinism at least take it the whole way and realize that there are even passages in the Bible that teach double predestination (such as Jude 1:3-4). I would say that it is according to foreknowledge of the fact that God knew in advance who these false teachers were going to be, because He is outside of time; and prepared their condemnation from of old; knowing exactly who it would be that would be a recipient of His righteous judgment in the condemning of their souls.

Jude 1:3-4 does not teach that God predestined some people to sin and condemnation.

Tong
R2235

 

[Tong2020]

It was the Roman soldiers who pierced Jesus with a spear. The scriptures show us that, you want to disagree with the scriptures then do so, I'm not going to agree with you.

If you are consistent with tour reasoning, that would make the Roman soldiers as the ones who crucified Christ and killed Him, not the Jews, rendering all scriptures that teaches that the Jews were the ones who crucified and killed Jesus, false.

Don’t agree with me. By all means, agree with scriptures.

Tong
R2236

 

[Tong2020]

Wrong, Jesus came in the likeness of the first man Adam. Just as the first Adam wasn't a God-Man, neither was the last Adam, Jesus. Those of you who call Jesus a God-Man denys he came as a human in the likeness of Adam because you say he came more than a human.
Adam, who lost everlasting life in human perfection, bequeathed sin and death to his offspring (Ro 5:12), and Adam’s descendants therefore came under condemnation to death. If humankind was to regain the opportunity to enjoy everlasting life, then, in harmony with a legal principle that Jehovah later included in the Mosaic Law, namely, that like must go for like, exact atonement would be required for what had been lost by Adam.—De 19:21.

As used in the Bible, “atonement” has the basic thought of “cover” or “exchange,” and that which is given in exchange for, or as a “cover” for, another thing must be its duplicate or equivalent Thus, anything making satisfaction for something that is lost or forfeited must be “at one” with that other thing, completely covering it as its exact equivalent. There must be no overlapping and no coming short. No imperfect human could provide such a covering or atonement to restore perfect human life to any or all of mankind. (Ps 49:7, 8) To make adequate atonement for what was forfeited by Adam, a sin offering having the precise value of a perfect human life would have to be provided.
This is what was ransomed a perfect human life that's what Jesus sacrificed, not a God-Man but a perfect sinless human man is what was lost and an offspring of perfect sinless humans so Jesus sacrificed a perfect human man, not a God-man.

<<<Jesus came in the likeness of the first man Adam. Just as the first Adam wasn't a God-Man, neither was the last Adam, Jesus. >>>

Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (1 John 4:2-3). Relevant to this, see Phil.2:6-7.

<<<Adam, who lost everlasting life in human perfection.....>>>

Where in scriptures does it teach that Adam has everlasting life, and that he lost it? I am not aware of any passage in the Bible that teaches that. Does your Bible (NWT) teach that? Can you tell us where you got that?

Tong
R2237

 

[Truther]

HAHAHAHA.... Truther is on a roll today.... Go Truther Go.... LOL

Nice to see that you are still rolling that rock up the hill.... LOL

Oh yeah!

Acts 2:38 is definitely an uphill battle...you described it perfectly.

In these last days, we must "unchurch" and "rechurch' everyone we teach, except for the religion-less.

Man, getting folks to say "what shall we do" takes weeks or months nowadays.