For free will believers out there

[theefaith]

Wherever the lambs meet and have fellowship is the church . Whether at home , in a cave , in a field or in a building .

acts 5 lying to the church is lying to the Holy Spirit

 

[Tong2020]

Did Abraham ever hear Jesus name? Was Abraham saved by some other gospel?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Abraham appears to have knowledge, even faith and hope, concerning Christ.

Tong
R2217

 

[Tong2020]

Yes he did. But he never heard the gospel in the way we do, yet he was saved by faith.

Saved in the same way that all those the Father had given to the Son will be saved. By grace through faith, faith in God.

Tong
R2218

 

[theefaith]

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Abraham appears to have knowledge, even faith and hope, concerning Christ.

Tong
R2217

Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[Tong2020]

There has been what once was a very intense, lively and even heated debate on "Calvinism vs. Armeniaism" It has devolved into name calling which is sad and people outright telling untruths.

But a side point for which I am starting this thread for is this;

For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not, I ask you this.

What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?

They never had a chance to accept or reject christ even once! Before you spout how they could be saved by their conscience, let me remind you that in the same book (Romans) it say s no one is righteous and no one seeks after God!

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

All have sinned and without trusting in the payment for ones sin they are lost. Unless you are promoting two gospels. The o gospel of Jesus for those who have had a chance to hear the gospel and another gospel of salvation for those who never hear.

And if that were true, like A B Simpson from the CMA wrote in the 1800's in the book "Missionary Messages"- that if the unsaved can be saved by some way apart form the hearing and believing in the gospel as it says in Romans 10, the church is a fool for sending missionaries all over the world, for once they have heard the gospel, they are now responsible to the gospel.

If those who have no tyet heard the gospel can be saved apart from the gospel- then the church would do better taking those billions it spends yearly on missions and use them for another reason. But no ! That is not the case. These are people who for generations have never hasd the witness of the gospel in their lands and have died without once getting a chance to exercise that "free will". does that make God the monster you think I make him to be or what?

Serious respondents only.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

All who are in Jesus Christ, the second Adam, shall be made alive.

Also, who do you say Jesus was testifying of or telling the people about? Was it not the one and only true God who is in heaven, who is the creator of all things, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jacob, the God who is known, His invisible qualities, by the testimony of creation, by the prophets of old? For God, since the time that Adam sinned, is working out His salvation of His people, whom He had chosen by grace. A salvation that is by and through faith in Him. So He gives them faith. And faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.

Now consider what Jesus said:

John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.

Tong
R2219

 

[theefaith]

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

All who are in Jesus Christ, the second Adam, shall be made alive.

Also, who do you say Jesus was testifying of or telling the people about? Was it not the one and only true God who is in heaven, who is the creator of all things, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jacob, the God who is known, His invisible qualities, by the testimony of creation, by the prophets of old? For God, since the time that Adam sinned, is working out His salvation of His people, whom He had chosen by grace. A salvation that is by and through faith in Him. So He gives them faith. And faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.

Now consider what Jesus said:

John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.

Tong
R2219

Really? What happened to FACAGA

faith alone
Christ alone
grace alone

FACAGA?

Faith alone:
Christ alone:
Grace alone:


Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13


And never “faith alone”!

Rev. 2 I know thy works! I thought faith alone is all that mattered?

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

How can salvation be by faith alone in Christ alone thru grace alone?

Faith alone?

1 cor 13:2 and 13:13, Phil 1:29, James 2:24 Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 oppose faith alone!

Christ alone?

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Not Christ alone must also believe on the Father who sent Christ!

Grace alone? Mk 16:16 faith and baptism!
Jn 3:5 water and the spirit! Ez 36:25-27

Not grace alone but, grace thru baptism of water and the spirit, and a new heart full of love of God!

Matt 5:7 mercy thru merciful
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven

Acts 22:15 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Jn 3:5 born again refers to baptismal regeneration


Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!




Paul never taught justification by “faith alone”!

Did not Paul write these scriptures?

1 cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Three things are eternal (and therefore inseparable) faith, hope, & charity, and the greatest of these is charity! 1 cor 13:13

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Other scriptures opposing “faith alone”

Matt 5:7 mercy thru merciful
Lk 7:47 forgiven by love
1 pet 4:8 charity covers sins
Jn 20:21-23 sins forgiven

 

[Tong2020]

You do not know this to be the case.

And even if this is so, the Lord can preach the gospel to them that died never hearing of the gospel in their lifetime on earth:

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[ I’m not interested in the free will vs no free will debate; both sides have scriptures to support their case; but I prefer to exercise moderation instead of the extremism that tends to cause division in these matters]

I think there is a misapplication of 1 Peter 4:6 there.

Tong
R2220

 

[Michiah-Imla]

At post #94 I said the following using 1 Peter 4:6 as a proof text:

“the Lord can preach the gospel to them that died never hearing of the gospel in their lifetime on earth“

Then @Tong2020 said:

I think there is a misapplication of 1 Peter 4:6 there.

You are correct. I made that posting off the cuff without thinking it through. However someone else had already corrected me and I said the following:

Jesus went and preached unto the dead before his resurrection. This was a one time happening.

However I do not worry about a hypothetical; I know that God is just and will save all who will be saved. No one will be lost who didn’t deserve to be lost.

No one is unreachable; nothing is too hard for the Lord.

I have faith in that.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No; I got the revelation through the reading of holy scripture; as I believe that Paul also got his revelation through the reading of holy scripture.

Actually Paul spent years being taught by Jesus in the desert! The OT stuff he already knew, but the mysteries Paul revealed were hidden.

But thank you for clearing up how you got the revelation. Too many people here trusting in signs and dreams and stuff instead of the Word.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

All who are in Jesus Christ, the second Adam, shall be made alive.

Also, who do you say Jesus was testifying of or telling the people about? Was it not the one and only true God who is in heaven, who is the creator of all things, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jacob, the God who is known, His invisible qualities, by the testimony of creation, by the prophets of old? For God, since the time that Adam sinned, is working out His salvation of His people, whom He had chosen by grace. A salvation that is by and through faith in Him. So He gives them faith. And faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.

Now consider what Jesus said:

John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.

Tong
R2219

Yes I agree with all this. but what does it have to do with election or free will?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Actually Paul spent years being taught by Jesus in the desert!

Where did you get this information from?

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually Paul spent years being taught by Jesus in the desert! The OT stuff he already knew, but the mysteries Paul revealed were hidden.

He also had a strong working knowledge of the Old Testament, being a Pharisee and all.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

All who are in Jesus Christ, the second Adam, shall be made alive.

Also, who do you say Jesus was testifying of or telling the people about? Was it not the one and only true God who is in heaven, who is the creator of all things, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jacob, the God who is known, His invisible qualities, by the testimony of creation, by the prophets of old? For God, since the time that Adam sinned, is working out His salvation of His people, whom He had chosen by grace. A salvation that is by and through faith in Him. So He gives them faith. And faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.

Now consider what Jesus said:

John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.

Yes I agree with all this. but what does it have to do with election or free will?

Oh sorry. Honestly, I forgot about that as I had me focused on the matter of how those who have not heard the gospel of Christ are saved.

Anyway, let me do so now. Here goes my view regarding election of God and free will of man. Using and starting with the same scriptures,

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

That “in Adam” and “in Christ” speaks a lot. The former effectively says that all mankind, by simply being in Adam, when he disobeyed (sinned) God, were all made sinners as well. So that, all mankind, individually and personally, die without their will having anything to do with it. The latter, in like sense, effectively says that all those who are in Christ, by simply being in Him, when He obeyed (righteous act), will be made righteous. So that, all people who are in Christ, individually and personally, are made alive without their will having anything to do with it.

The question left now is who are those who are in Christ. They are those who were chosen by God and given to Jesus Christ, the second Adam, as also those who are in Adam, are those given by God to him, the first Adam. So, individual will still has nothing to do with that.

Tong
R2221

 

[Cooper]

Yet you forget that in the first instance of the Word God in this compound sentence the definite article "the" (hos) appears in the original language.

so it says in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God! Letting us know in part one of the sentence that the Word and God are speerate entities while in the second part the Word shares the same essence as "the God".

We know that. I wrote it the way I did to emphasise the deity of Jesus. I forget nothing, you said I had forgotten. Is there nothing you get right!
.

 

[Cooper]

My question to you is this:

Paul was given that revelation for it had not been revealed prior.

Why would God spend time giving you a revelation that is clearly spelled out in His Word? All one has to do is study to show ones self approved tro learn what you said you got by direct revelation apart from SCripture!

John 15:26.
.

 

[Cooper]

I have found something common in all who were part of something false . Once they really began to study the scripture
they started to realize , ooops our group is dooped . That man needs an all out return to the scriptures .
Allow me to use the words of a man who was once dug quite deep into Rome .
This man admitted early on He did not really study the scrips at all .
Anyway , a problem arose . This man became curious as to why THE CHURCH persecuted this one group so harshly .
SO , determined to see who was right he began digging into the scriptures . Feasting daily on them .
Would you like to hear his own words .
HE said , it did not take long before i realized , IT WAS WE who were wrong , we had been decieved by the mother catholic church .
SHE IS deadly my friend . We must do all to warn them to return to bibles and start studying the word for their own sake .
The mother is swallowing up everything now . And we must not be a partaker of her deeds , nor join her in unity .
YES , its gonna cost us my friend . BUT better is it to suffer and or even die for CHRIST than to follow a lie .
To follow another gospel or another jesus . WE MUST learn the BIBLCAL ONE . FEAST on those bibles my friends . AND LEARN CHRIST well
and all sound doctrine well .

Spurgeon illustrated it by saying we need to milk our own cow. Meaning we need to study the Bible for ourselves, instead of having it watered down by the priests. :)
.

 

[Tong2020]

Every person has the opportunity to accept Christ. None are denied.

That sounds good. But what about those who died at infancy?

Tong
R2222

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually Paul spent years being taught by Jesus in the desert!

Where did you get this information from?

It is something that is taught in the church.

But I'm not certain that it has any real biblical backing.

People refer to Galatians 1 as proof...but I don't really think that those scriptures stand as proof.

 

[Tong2020]

Isn't it True that exercising faith in the Only True God because of the love you have for him is the basis of who God considers his friends, his faithful servants and therefore who he considers righteous, deserving of life?
Doesn't Hebrews chapter eleven teach us about this faith. Doesn't it talk about so many who exercised faith in the Times before Jesus paid the ransom price that God considered righteous but tells us that these faithful servants wouldn't be complete without Jesus and his Apostles, meaning in the resurrection all these who exercised faith will hear the gospel after they are resurrected.

<<<Isn't it True that exercising faith in the Only True God because of the love you have for him is the basis of who God considers his friends, his faithful servants and therefore who he considers righteous, deserving of life?>>>

People who have love for him are those who God had loved first.

<<< Doesn't Hebrews chapter eleven teach us about this faith. Doesn't it talk about so many who exercised faith in the Times before Jesus paid the ransom price that God considered righteous but tells us that these faithful servants wouldn't be complete without Jesus and his Apostles, meaning in the resurrection all these who exercised faith will hear the gospel after they are resurrected.>>>

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Tong
R2223

 

[Michiah-Imla]

It is something that is taught in the church.

But I'm not certain that it has any real biblical backing.

People refer to Galatians 1 as proof...but I don't really think that those scriptures stand as proof.

I suspected as much.

I often wonder why people repeat unbiblical narratives.

But the Bible shows why:

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.